Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 10. (Read 901520 times)

I am sorry af_newbie but if you want to understand this topic you are going to have to put in a little more effort.

However emotional satisfying you find it calling people sadistic and brain damaged it just makes you look silly. You are simply not understanding what in my opinion is the most elegant of the solutions to the free will problem.

Izbicer demonstrates is that it is possible for agents to be free, relative to the fiction that they live in, whilst wholly determined from a God’s eye view. If you want to really understand how this works you will have to do some reading and approach the topic with an open mind.

The Izbicer Rebbe and Freewill
http://www.theapj.com/the-izbicer-rebbe-and-freewill-2/



No I said that the proper instantiation of the objective moral code can vary across changing circumstances.

The command love your neighbor as yourself for example can cause you to act in one way in a particular scenario and in an entirely different way in another time and situation. The truth is fixed it’s implementation infinity variable.

Societies adherence to objective morality is always flawed.  The closeness of the approximation varies hopefully with gradual improvement over time.

As BadDecker mentioned human nature does not change much over time on a fundamental level. This is true and it’s the reason why the 10 commandments are as relevant today as there were centuries ago.

Society, however, is vastly more complex and powerful then it was 4,000 years ago.  Some things that were important in times past are not as relevant or practical in our modern world (animal offerings are an example). When those situations arise one can understand the message of the Bible by attempting to understand why the rule was ideal and necessary 4,000 years ago. Deriving that truth if we can sometimes allows us to extrapolate how that principle would map to the modern world. It’s not an easy process which is perhaps why we have been granted a role model to follow. The ideal if you will.

first of all we can not blame whole community just because of few rotten apples. And i think some of them hate religion because they think different religion are the reason of this extremism and radicalization presence in the world, which is true at all. Some people who are not following religion properly are extremist because no religion of world preach extremism.

Just let us know when you successfully turn yourself into a homosexual and I will accept your theory that people ''choose'' to be gay.

The thing that you willing ignore is that people are just the same now as they were back then. So, the laws fit the people of today as they did the people back then. But the point is who the laws were given to, and why.

Science shows us that math and physics haven't changed much in the last several thousand years. But the Bible stopped expanding with the Revelation, almost 2,000 years ago, because God accomplished the saving of ALL people back then, with Jesus' death and resurrection. So, the laws, while they are important, are going to dissolve (along with the math and physics) in the coming destruction of this universe.

Why doesn't science know about the coming destruction scientifically? They do. Everybody knows that we all die. But science is too weak to tell about the coming end of the universe. We need to go to God for that. Btw, God is attested to by science, not necessarily by scientists - Scientific proof that God exists? - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/scientific-proof-that-god-exists-737322.

All you are saying is that you reject reality and science. Go through my posts in Scientific proof that God exists? - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/scientific-proof-that-god-exists-737322 - and put it together.

What? You won't do this? See? It's by choice that you reject the truth. You grew up to make your own choice, based on lack of facts.

I feel sad for you that your folks indoctrinated you with “fairy tales for grownups” (as l like to refer to Christianity as) when you were young and impressionable, rather than letting you think critically and come to the rational conclusion that all religions are fairy tales for grownups.
Thank goodness my parents did just that, and around the age of nine I was smart enough to realize that the
almighty invisible sky fairy, that deluded pious folk (such as yourself) refer to as god, allah,  yowie, jehova....or whatever the phuk  your silly flavor religion names him..is about as real as Santa Claus or the tooth fairy.

^^^ You're so good, CoinCube. When you look at the Psalms in the O.T., you find many of them were written and spoken/sung by King David, some before he was king. He was a warrior. He was one of the bloodiest warriors. He personally killed thousands. But his Psalms explain him.

"When I wanted peace, they wanted war."
"O, my God, save my life from those dogs."

Most of his Psalms had to do with asking God for help in his warrior activities... not because he wanted to be a warrior, but because he was thrown into the position by others who wanted to harm him and the little nation of Ancient Israel.

Exactly as you said. There wasn't any police force. There wasn't any modern military. It was every little nation for themselves... against any other nation that was out to savagely attack them, rape, plunder, steal their land, etc.

David was throwing his life into God's hands. And, he was obeying God's law. The thing he set up for his son, Solomon, was a little dinky nation, that was, size for size, the most powerful nation that the world ever knew... possibly right up to the present.

It wasn't God's idea for Ancient Israel to go on the warpath, out of their land, to attack other nations far away. But if David had wanted, God probably would have allowed him to become a mightier conqueror than Genghis Khan could have imagined.

Actually there is a third option. The universe including all time and space could be an imagined deterministic creation in which the creations are imagined to be free.

Here is the solution to the problem I agree with. Trigger warning you are going to absolutely hate it.
The Izbicer Rebbe and Freewill
http://www.theapj.com/the-izbicer-rebbe-and-freewill-2/

The more powerful the consciousness the more spectacular the illusion



The best way to understand the Old Testament of the Bible is as a set of ideal rules for the primitive society it was given to a barbaric primitive corrupt illiterate tribe living in unimaginable squalor surrounded and vastly outnumbered by more powerful pagan cultures.

It should be viewed as the necessary rules for that society to survive and thrive in their utterly hostile environment.  When viewed from this frame of reference even the seemingly bizarre passages often fall into logical order as I discussed with Astargath immediately up thread.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.50785483

When trying to reconcile rules from those primitive times with today's much more complex and developed society the answer is fairly straightforward yet at the same time quite difficult. You shared it with us yourself.
 

^^^ That's too bad for you.

I was raised Christian, and the first time I heard about death, I asked my parents what it meant. They explained it to me. And then they explained that Jesus (the Christ) takes people to Heaven if they believe in Him.

I feel sad for you that you never had anyone explain it to you.

I was born and raised into Christianity, I don't know what religion really was until I go to high school where we have to learn about different religions and it was then I know there are other religion aside Christian. So you being and Atheist that don't believe in religion is all about believes and were one grow up really tell a lot on you understanding of things.

^^^ There are both, free will and lack of it.

For example, when you work for a company, your boss often tells you to do something. Some things he dictates. But others he allows you to use your own judgment on. The results work out best when there is a little of each, free will and controlled direction.

God works similarly in the universe, but much more foundationally. He allows us partial free will so that we are free. But because we are not strong enough to actuate anything that we free-will decide, God does the actuating for us. When He does it, He does it according to His goals and the physics of the universe.

Cause & Effect in the universe makes it look like we ultimately don't have free will. But we don't have enough science to factually claim that we have free will or not. So, we need to follow the two examples available:
1. Apparent free will shows that the free-will idea is present;
2. The Bible shows us how we have free will, with God Almighty guiding it.

Conscious control of things is very limited. Even science has shown that the subconscious is far greater than the conscious.

^^^ You are mixed up regarding this, similar to how you are mixed up about evolution and its theory. Evolution theory exists, but the form of evolution proposed by evolution theory doesn't.

How does this apply to gays or transsexuals? God doesn't make gays or transsexuals. God makes people. The idea that God makes gays and transsexuals is only an idea. It is the people, themselves, who turn themselves into gays or transsexuals at times, not God.

I wonder why god would create gays or transsexuals in the first place, seems like something so unnecessary and it's not even related to free will.

Yes Christians are protected by current law.

No individuals with gender dysphoria are not.

I am opposed to big government in general and that includes the creation of an ever expanding list of special legally protected classes over time. We need to be reducing government’s size and role in our lives not growing it.

Ok now you are flat out being ridiculous. Of course I have empathy for gays and transgender people.

I also don’t think people with homosexual tendencies are mentally ill. I have known several highly intelligent and highly functional people who are gay. Gender dysphoria is different story. The 50% attempted suicide rate gives that away if nothing else does.

By and large I do not support forced anything and that includes forced psychiatric care or forced incarceration unless there is no other choice.

I also oppose forced association against ones genuine religious beliefs. For example your humanist moral relativism religion has left you with a distain for Christianity. I have no problem with you deciding to never to hire Christians in your business.

Is that discrimination against Christians you bet it is. I also think such discrimination is very much the wrong thing to do. Nevertheless, not discriminating is not the highest ideal. In this case it should give way to the higher principal of freedom.

In regards to Hitler yes his party failed to get a majority of the popular vote but much of the votes he did not get went to other parties that ended up supporting him. The enabling act which officially granted him dictatorial powers letting him pass laws without parliament passed the with 441 votes in favor. Only 94 representatives opposed.

https://m.dw.com/en/the-law-that-enabled-hitlers-dictatorship/a-16689839

It is to your credit that you would stand up in opposition to evil in that scenario af_newbie. That fact that enough people did is why that particular evil failed.

However, you dodged the question. I did not ask you what you would do or if you would be among the living I asked you if following victory the Nazi's would suddenly become good men. If evil becomes good by popular consensus simply by killing the opposition.

The problem with your moral standard is the answer is yes they would be good men. In your own words "You are a good person if you follow the moral code that your society accepts." That is moral relativism in a nutshell.

August Landmesser was certainly an exceptional German he was exceptional because he did not follow the moral code his society accepted. He opposed Nazism and paid dearly for it. He was forced to fight in a penal battalion and was killed. His wife was killed. His children were placed in orphanages and fortunately survived. Hitler was elected into office via a democratic vote. He was given emergency dictatorial powers by a democratic vote in the legislature. Opposition existed but was not widespread there was no civil war in Germany or anything like it. His rise to power was legal.

You disagree with the term nihilism I will stop using it to describe you. It was not meant as a pejorative. You value life and that is good. It means you have kept at least a part of yourself free of relativism. There is no scientific reason to value life. There are billions of other humans very similar to you and probably many other planets with other life out there somewhere. Valuing life is probably necessary to reproduce and propagate but there is no scientific reason to do that either. The real reason to value life is not because it is rare or common or practical. The reason to value life is that each individual is an end in and of themselves.

You can certainly build a coherent worldview on moral relativism. It turns into a philosophy of power and the necessity to seek power over yourself and others at all costs. The following theoretical discussion between Kant and Nietzsche is a little deep but it highlights this last point.

Kant and Nietzsche talk it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHJFWJgXuXg  


I understand deluded but sadistic?

I take no pleasure in inflicting suffering, humiliation, or pain on others. If I have done any of those things to you in the course of our discussion I apologize for it was unintentional.

^^^ All  you are indicating is that you don't understand honor.     

^^^ But do consider talking to others from both sides. Because many others find the Bible to be talking in an orderly, organized, coherent fashion. And you just might be wrong about the Bible.

If you seriously talk to others from both camps, you can at least tell God in the Judgment that you tried.

As for ass-wiping, wasn't that what he was doing when he responded to you?

God answered you in the Bible long before you asked. It's your fault if you don't accept the answers.

Imagine that your parents were very guilty feeling. They felt that they were completely unworthy and guilty of everything. Their response to their feelings of guilt and unworthiness was self flagellation on a regular basis. And they taught you the same. And you did this freely throughout your childhood.

Does this mean that once you grow up, that you can't change?