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Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 225. (Read 901342 times)

hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 722
February 04, 2016, 02:44:44 PM
Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Have you read that little header above each of the gospels?

When were they written, according to your own bible? (many bibles give dates)

The earliest (Mark) is supposedly written 40 years after "Jesus" died, the latter ones as late as 140AD, over 100 years after Jesus died... now add 20 years since they were not children when they met Jesus...

Given the average lifespan was around 30 years at the time, I find it hard to believe that these 60-140 year old men wrote accurate accounts of what happened 40-100 years earlier...

How well do you remember events from 40+ years ago?
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 02:42:00 PM

But because the atheistic scientist doesn't know that, if you want to talk to him at all, you have to speak his language. You have to talk to him the way he understands things, show him where he is wrong, and only then can you reach him with your understanding.

Smiley

Science cannot be atheists: Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.

"What you are trying to describe here is a sin not Science."


Best regards.

Okay. Call it pseudoscience. You still have to talk in a language that they understand if you want to communicate with them.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 02:38:46 PM

Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Smiley

Go to tell this to a hebrew person: I bed he/she will laugh at your face.

Or maybe not: but that's not a proof, it's a hope.


Best regards.



Actually, there are many Jewish Christians around... or should I say Christian Jews. They may be only a small percentage of all the Jews. But there are many.

When you study about the Dead Sea Scrolls, you will find that in the area where the Scrolls were found, there has been found a cache of fragments of the New Testament which have been dated to before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD. These New Testament fragments were originally preserved by Jews. The whole N.T. had its beginning with people who were Jews.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAp6KUwEBZs and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljv4eKEHYD4 and https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Mark-Qumran-fragments to see more about this.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1003
February 04, 2016, 02:20:31 PM

But because the atheistic scientist doesn't know that, if you want to talk to him at all, you have to speak his language. You have to talk to him the way he understands things, show him where he is wrong, and only then can you reach him with your understanding.

Smiley

Science cannot be atheists: Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.

"What you are trying to describe here is a sin not Science."


Best regards.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 02:17:33 PM

The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?


Because Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.


Best regards.

But because the atheistic scientist doesn't know that, if you want to talk to him at all, you have to speak his language. You have to talk to him the way he understands things, show him where he is wrong, and only then can you reach him with your understanding.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 02:14:26 PM
If we had the proof of His existence then how us, mortals, could oppose His will?
God has left a tiny area of free will open in us. It has to do with aspects of faith that we have in Him. It doesn't have anything to so with any of our standard understanding of free will, like choosing which side of the bed to get out of in the morning.

Our free will has to do with limited aspects of our faith in God. That's it. God judges us according to our faith in Him.

Then how could He test us?
God tests us based on the freewill portion of our faith in Him.

...the area of free will...

Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!



A point about free will and prayer...

When you pray for God to change his divine plan to benefit yourself... You claim that you know better than God does?  You ask him to change his perfect/divine plan because your kid has cancer?  Who are you to question God's divine/perfect plan?!?  God gave your kid cancer because that is His plan, and you think you know better than God? The lolz

Well, that isn't quite the way God has it expressed all over the Bible. From https://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will:
Proverbs 16:9 ESV / 640 helpful votes

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Joshua 24:15 ESV / 209 helpful votes

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
John 7:17 ESV / 164 helpful votes

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
Revelation 3:20 ESV / 141 helpful votes

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
1 Corinthians 10:13 ESV / 121 helpful votes

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
John 1:12-13 ESV / 97 helpful votes

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 ESV / 73 helpful votes

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
Genesis 2:16-17 ESV / 72 helpful votes

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

...

There are many more passages at the site listed. Many of the passages express how God gives us free will.

The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?

Smiley

Did you even read any of those bible quotes before posting them?  Not a single one has anything to do with "free will"

You read them all? but didn't think about them? Every one of them has to do with freewill.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 02:12:57 PM

So, how does one carry or carry over the atheist sin?   Smiley

Can we decide first to do or not to do, then decide how to do it?!?


Best regards.

Perhaps if I understood what you mean by carry or carry over, I might be able to make an informed decision about whether or not I should carry or carry over something.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1003
February 04, 2016, 02:12:28 PM

Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Smiley

Go to tell this to a hebrew person: I bed he/she will laugh at your face.

Or maybe not: but that's not a proof, it's a hope.


Best regards.

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 02:09:02 PM

That's the point - you don't even know what your underlying assumptions are, and I'm trying to find out if they are valid or not. If not valid, your entire argument disappears in a puff of logic.
Now, that's quite presumptuous of you, suggesting that I don't know what my underlying assumptions are. Cheesy It seems that you can barely stay on point. Are you a mind reader that you know my underlying assumptions enough so that you can examine them? If you happen to know my underlying assumptions, are you so foolish that you think that you can judge their validity fairly?


Your underlying assumption is that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that everybody is waiting for.

There are no scientific nor historical proofs of the existence of Jesus Christ as Messiah.

We need to understand what we are talking about:
1. Faith (Christianity): faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah
2. Faith in monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam): faith in God of the Old Testament.

I'm using the word Faith differently as I approach a Christian a Muslim or a Jew: I just discovered it now.


Best regards.

Much of the New Testament is eye-witness reports about Jesus and the things He did. In addition, while it is not scientific proof, the Holy Spirit has enlightened the hearts of Christians through faith that Jesus not only existed, not only is the Messiah, but also lives in Heaven right now as the almighty God with the Father and Holy spirit.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1003
February 04, 2016, 02:04:38 PM

The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?


Because Science comes from Wisdom which comes from fearing the Lord.


Best regards.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 02:03:58 PM
Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!



A point about free will and prayer...

When you pray for God to change his divine plan to benefit yourself... You claim that you know better than God does?  You ask him to change his perfect/divine plan because your kid has cancer?  Who are you to question God's divine/perfect plan?!?  God gave your kid cancer because that is His plan, and you think you know better than God? The lolz

You have free will in deciding to have faith in him or not.


Can you read?  I refuted that claim in the post you quoted, I even underlined it to make it easy for you...

"He could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!"

Now that you understand that there is faultiness in being an atheist, use your free will to change. If you don't, it is your fault, not God's.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 02:02:03 PM

Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!


You have free will in deciding to have faith in him or not.



Best regards.

No. You only have free will to decide not to believe in Him. However, if your free will is weak enough, the Holy spirit can work faith in your heart.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 722
February 04, 2016, 02:01:05 PM
If we had the proof of His existence then how us, mortals, could oppose His will?
God has left a tiny area of free will open in us. It has to do with aspects of faith that we have in Him. It doesn't have anything to so with any of our standard understanding of free will, like choosing which side of the bed to get out of in the morning.

Our free will has to do with limited aspects of our faith in God. That's it. God judges us according to our faith in Him.

Then how could He test us?
God tests us based on the freewill portion of our faith in Him.

...the area of free will...

Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!



A point about free will and prayer...

When you pray for God to change his divine plan to benefit yourself... You claim that you know better than God does?  You ask him to change his perfect/divine plan because your kid has cancer?  Who are you to question God's divine/perfect plan?!?  God gave your kid cancer because that is His plan, and you think you know better than God? The lolz

Well, that isn't quite the way God has it expressed all over the Bible. From https://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will:
Proverbs 16:9 ESV / 640 helpful votes

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Joshua 24:15 ESV / 209 helpful votes

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
John 7:17 ESV / 164 helpful votes

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
Revelation 3:20 ESV / 141 helpful votes

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
1 Corinthians 10:13 ESV / 121 helpful votes

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
John 1:12-13 ESV / 97 helpful votes

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 ESV / 73 helpful votes

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
Genesis 2:16-17 ESV / 72 helpful votes

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

...

There are many more passages at the site listed. Many of the passages express how God gives us free will.

The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?

Smiley

Did you even read any of those bible quotes before posting them?  Not a single one has anything to do with "free will"
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 01:59:39 PM
If we had the proof of His existence then how us, mortals, could oppose His will?
God has left a tiny area of free will open in us. It has to do with aspects of faith that we have in Him. It doesn't have anything to so with any of our standard understanding of free will, like choosing which side of the bed to get out of in the morning.

Our free will has to do with limited aspects of our faith in God. That's it. God judges us according to our faith in Him.

Then how could He test us?
God tests us based on the freewill portion of our faith in Him.

...the area of free will...

Free will?  That is something I can prove false...

If you believe these 3 common Christian beliefs:
1) God created the universe exactly as it is
2) God could have created the universe differently if he wanted to (billions of possibilities)
3) God is Omniscient (knows the future)

Then free will cannot exist

God created this specific universe, knowing exactly what would happen, including your personal choices (free will)...  he could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!



A point about free will and prayer...

When you pray for God to change his divine plan to benefit yourself... You claim that you know better than God does?  You ask him to change his perfect/divine plan because your kid has cancer?  Who are you to question God's divine/perfect plan?!?  God gave your kid cancer because that is His plan, and you think you know better than God? The lolz

Well, that isn't quite the way God has it expressed all over the Bible. From https://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will:
Proverbs 16:9 ESV / 640 helpful votes

The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Joshua 24:15 ESV / 209 helpful votes

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
John 7:17 ESV / 164 helpful votes

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
Revelation 3:20 ESV / 141 helpful votes

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
1 Corinthians 10:13 ESV / 121 helpful votes

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
John 1:12-13 ESV / 97 helpful votes

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 ESV / 73 helpful votes

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
Genesis 2:16-17 ESV / 72 helpful votes

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

...

There are many more passages at the site listed. Many of the passages express how God gives us free will.

The idea of cause and effect suggests that there is no free will. But how can one talk to a materialistic scientist who doesn't believe in spirit and soul, but only believes in bio-mechanical operations of mind?

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1003
February 04, 2016, 01:56:47 PM

So, how does one carry or carry over the atheist sin?   Smiley

Can we decide first to do or not to do, then decide how to do it?!?


Best regards.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 01:52:19 PM

Then how could He test us?

God tests us based on the freewill portion of our faith in Him.


God tests us based on the Firewall we did set in place to protect our Faith in him from crackers.


Best regards.

I kinda DO like the Cracker Barrel restaurant. And I certainly hope they have fire resistant walls.

 Grin
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 722
February 04, 2016, 01:51:50 PM
OK, OK, I had no idea you guys hated each other so much! Sheesh. I thought you two had bonded over your idea that murdering atheists is morally acceptable.

If it wasn't for the infighting of the various denominations, I would be scared of Christians starting WW3 with the Muslims...

But, as it sits... I can't seriously believe that the Catholics would team up with the Baptists, Pentecostals, Mormons, et al...

If there is one thing I am certain... minor differences in the flavour of 'magical space fairy' dogma is a deal breaker for religitards...  You can count on them hating each other as much as the Muslims... (even though they all believe in the same God, including Muslims, which is just another branch of the Abrahamic cult)


P.S. Random Question: Why do the two religitards end every single post with  Smiley or "Best Regards"... Is that a common practice among stupid people? (kinda tired of clipping it from every reply)
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1003
February 04, 2016, 01:51:27 PM

That's the point - you don't even know what your underlying assumptions are, and I'm trying to find out if they are valid or not. If not valid, your entire argument disappears in a puff of logic.
Now, that's quite presumptuous of you, suggesting that I don't know what my underlying assumptions are. Cheesy It seems that you can barely stay on point. Are you a mind reader that you know my underlying assumptions enough so that you can examine them? If you happen to know my underlying assumptions, are you so foolish that you think that you can judge their validity fairly?


Your underlying assumption is that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that everybody is waiting for.

There are no scientific nor historical proofs of the existence of Jesus Christ as Messiah.

We need to understand what we are talking about:
1. Faith (Christianity): faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah
2. Faith in monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam): faith in God of the Old Testament.

I'm using the word Faith differently as I approach a Christian a Muslim or a Jew: I just discovered it now.


Best regards.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
February 04, 2016, 01:48:28 PM

If you are talking to me, what do you mean by "carry over?" And what is the thing being or to be carried over?

Smiley

I'm taking about carrying over the sin of the atheist in our life.

It is not right not carry this sin with us.


Best regards.

So, how does one carry or carry over the atheist sin?   Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1003
February 04, 2016, 01:45:44 PM

You have free will in deciding to have faith in him or not.


Can you read?  I refuted that claim in the post you quoted, I even underlined it to make it easy for you...

"He could have created a universe where I was a Christian instead of an Atheist, but God created this universe, knowing that I would be an Atheist... It's God's fault I'm an Atheist, not mine!"

How can you know what God wanted if you don't have faith in him?


Best regards.
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