Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 394. (Read 901367 times)

Yes, I know how humbling it can be to realize how little control we actually have in our lives.

Lol do you know how many times in the past you have criticized atheists for abusing their free will to ignore God?  You have the memory of a zygote.

BD what have you been smoking?

Here's where you guys are wrong. The below is simply an example. It is a broad example to show you how you are not free to make choices.


Imagine that you are living in a dry land of the Arabs, perhaps in part of the Sahara Desert. It is a hot, dry day, and you have been working hard. You are very thirsty. Someone stops by and offers you a drink of water. You drink the water. You drink fully so that you are thirsty no longer. You are full of water. Your thirst has prompted you to drink.

Five minutes later, while you are still full of water, someone else offers you a drink of water. You decline, because the fact that you are full of water influences your decision.

Right at that moment, a second person comes up to you and tells you that you don't have any choice in the matter. He says that you don't have a choice because you are already full of water, so you can't drink any more. Just to show him that you have freedom of choice, you decide to take a drink after all.

Just as you are raising the water to your lips, a third guy steps up and says that you were influenced by the second guy and that you really don't have any choice but to drink. The third guy makes you hesitate as you realize that your choice either way has been influenced by these 3 guys.


Inside all of us are multitudes of emotions caused by who knows what. Electrons zap around in our brains, causing neurons to fire, influencing our every decision. Why do we choose anything? Because of countless operations of nature and other people and circumstances that we do not ever know about. But they influence us in every choice we make and everything we do.

There is no freedom that is apparent. The only thing that is apparent is the illusion of freedom.

Once you can absorb this and understand it, come back and I will show you where your only freedom of choice lies. I'm busy today. Maybe tomorrow.

Saying you're conscious decisions don't demonstrate freedom of self is absurd, a murderer could claim they not responsible for their actions. Equally that would imply "sinners" when turning up at the pearly gates would tell "God" I wasn't responsible for any of my sins you made me do them. We are all responsible for our own choices and actions "God" has nothing to do with them.

I read it and it still doesn't make any sense. You're basically saying that every choice you choose to make was primed by something you don't control, therefore it's not a free choice. The argument is unconvincing because the logic used to support it is illogical. Your surrounding circumstances have to bearing on your ability to choose to act in ways you are able to. The fact that you have to choose how to get out of bed in the morning is a circumstance that arises by your decision to sleep in bed the night before. It has no bearing on the freedom to get out of bed however you want. The fact that you have to get out of bed in some manner does not disprove the notion of freedom. The fact that you have impulses does not disprove the notion of freedom.

This is somewhat correct. However, it is not the fact that there is limited freedom that suggests that there isn't any freedom. The thing that strongly suggests that there isn't any freedom is cause and effect.

For example. Imagine that you wake up some morning and say to yourself, Today I'm going to get out of bed by crawling off the end of the bed. I am going to use my freedom to crawl off the end of the bed rather than getting out on the right side or the left side. This will prove to me that I have freedom of choice. It will prove that I have freedom.

But, do you really have freedom at all? Something caused you to want to prove to yourself that you have freedom. What was it?

Something motivated you to use this method (the way you got out of bed) to prove your freedom to yourself. What was it?

The point is, every time you choose something, even if you seem to have freedom of choice, someone or something, even if it is only the way electrical charges work in the neurons of your brain, caused you to do the thing that you did.

Now stop for a moment. Don't get me wrong. I don't think that we don't have partial freedom. We have some freedom. What I am saying is, we don't understand where freedom lies. Our feelings of freedom are illusions of freedom according to anything that we know scientifically or any other way, about how things work.

In other words, we have freedom, but we don't understand how or where and in what way, and we have a very difficult time distinguishing freedom from the illusion of freedom.

If you don't read this, you won't understand that what I was saying is different than what you said.

Identifying things that are not physically possible to do does not refute the notion of freedom. 'I can't go to the moon, so there must not be any freedom.' That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Up until the mid 1800's, a majority of Scottish people believed in fairies (often blaming them when farming equipment would go missing etc)

Seems silly to most people now right?  Back then, you'd be in the minority.

A more modern example is "Korean Fan Death" (google it)

For non believers (myself included) - religion seems silly.   Just because you have 1000 or 100,000,000 believing in these stories does not make them any more plausible.

My only issue is when religion begins to dictate policy in government or in schools. Other than that, believe whatever story you want.

Yeah, but most (if not all) religions go one step farther than assert a "creator" god, they have at least one god that wants to be worshiped and (sometimes) loved by the people. Most arguments for a creator are OK, there might be something with a mind of its own that created the universe. But if anyone wants to convince me to join their church or ideology, compelling arguments for a "creator" god are not enough.
I choose not to participate in any religious reunion (church, mosque, etc) because I can get all the benefits of it and do communal good elsewhere, without the need for any prayer.
Now, whether or not god is a logical necessity, or the [insert name here]-tological argument for god is proof of its existence... I'll leave that debate to people who know what they're talking about.
For now, I'm just saying that most religions' claim of their loving (among other things) god starts falling apart the moment I make the observation that their god needs human proxies to make contact, and (apparently) waits for complete belief before presenting himself in some fashion that seems to never be consistent. And comparing their scriptures with what they claim their god to be like gives us more and more inconsistencies that make me believe that most (if not all) religions are a human structure, devoid of an existing deity.

Forgive me if this sounds insulting its not intended to be so but "God" has never said anything to me so why should I believe he would have spoken to anybody else. Even more ludicrous is the notion that "God" would single out select individuals to tell the rest of us how to live our lives? Therein leis the deception. Excuse the pun. If "God" wanted to make us to live according to a specific doctrine it would simply be so. The concepts of good and evil are human constructs of moral behaviour that have been wrapped into theistic fairytales to make society conform and serve a ruling elite. Substituting the word universe for "God" removes all the deception and manipulation. We do not need religion for morality.

Of course, you and I have to talk this way. Why? Because all the evidence is that something or many things have prompted us to answer this way. We don't do it because we have freedom to do it.

Important here. This that I am saying is according to science and basic evidences. God says we have free will, so we do. But we don't know where it is based.

Science has shown that there is a little bit of stuff that acts outside of cause and effect. But the only way they show it is through some high, quantum math, and some sophisticated, cyclotron experiments. This in itself makes the experiments and math questionable.

The greater a scientist, the more he recognizes that everything operates by cause and effect.

Enjoy your illusion of freedom just as I am enjoying mine.

Only if you cling to dogma, and have a closed mind. Its fine to share our perspectives that enables us to grow. But clinging to any belief system out of ignorance is limiting. forming your own verified opinion is far more enriching.

Example believing in a "God" because you have been told by someone else it exists and trying to conform to their definition merely makes you a salve to their ideology. Life is far more meaningful when you form your own perspective and allow it to grow with you as you experience life.

Perhaps. But when you look at how things work way down inside of them, all we see - and especially science - is cause and effect, which allows for no freedom, but only an illusion of freedom.

The freedom to perceive the universe and what it means to be alive is each individual's exclusive fundamental right.  

The idea of freedom is great, and the illusion of freedom is nice. But there isn't any freedom, at least in a basic sense. Try doing anything outside of the limitations of life, and you will fail.

Consider all the people who would like the adventure of space travel. Extremely few have a chance at experiencing it, even though many more would if they could.

Try flying without an airplane. Even a wing-suit isn't really flying.

There isn't any freedom. The illusion of freedom lies in the extremely limited number of things that we think we are free to do. Cause and effect allows for absolutely no freedom whatsoever. We are all programmed to have the illusion of freedom. But there really isn't any.

IMHO, there is no need to be saved, merely by recognising that the universe is alive and majestic enriches your experience of it. The Idea we have to live in servitude is a man made and only serves to enslave others. Collective ideology is a false premise. Experiencing the universe from your own perspective allows you to fully appreciate the mystery of life without being limited by others short comings.

Everything that happens in life - EVERYTHING - appears to be based on cause and effect, action and reaction. Even our thoughts where we make what we consider "free will choices" are directed by stimuli from the outside.

Whatever started cause and effect, the Thing that we could call the Great First Cause but some people call God, must have understood all about emotion to have caused it to come into being, through the ages of cause and effect that He directed to happen, right down to the present.

Everything is religion. Ever since the beginning there have been people who have made a religion out of seeking to believe that there was no religion. These days, the religion of atheism is strong because of self-worship >>> humanism.

Why is everything religion? Because nobody knows even one second into the future what will happen. We all feel like we know, because experience shows us that a lot of the things we attempt actually happen. But then there are the car accidents and airplane crashes, etc., that show us that we really don't know the future at all.

Not knowing the future is what drives us into religion. We attempt to juggle the path of life to our favor. But we really don't know the future at all.

But even when they ARE NOT being disrespectful, Christians must characterize atheists as what atheists are. What are they? Unsaved for eternal life.

An atheist could turn to salvation. The hope is that they do turn. Why? Because we Christians are selfish. Eternity is a long time, and we need everyone that we can get into Heaven to be there with us, so that we are not bored out of our gourds over the expanse of eternity.

Seriously, God is wonderful way beyond understanding. The joy at being with Him forever is desirable way beyond this life.