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Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 395. (Read 901367 times)

legendary
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July 10, 2015, 03:13:04 AM
I'm an atheist. And I'm also a pragmatist. If a all-powerful, all-knowing god wants me to love it, it knows exactly how I came to love other human beings, it can do exactly the same things they did. At no cost to itself, seeing as how it is all-powerful. If it's too proud to make an attempt to personally try make contact, and rely upon all kinds of proxies... then, maybe it just wouldnt have ever worked out between us.

Your desires for other things is distracting you from the gentle calling, and the contact God is constantly trying to make with you, personally.

Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 444
Merit: 260
July 10, 2015, 01:11:05 AM
There is no basis to assume a "creator" expresses any emotion towards us or any form of favoritism to any part within the universe. Using emotion to validify or or refute the existence of intelligent design would be false. In the same way mathematics is emotionless, so using concepts of love and hate to argue its validity makes no sense.    
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1038
July 10, 2015, 12:59:40 AM
I think that most atheists are not religious, not due to hate of religion, but due to skepticism.
However, I know of quite a few younger atheists who hate religion due to being forced into it as a child.

I'm not sure either on what path is right for a parent to take when considering religion. An open approach, allowing the child to choose a religion? But that would not offer the child something to believe in and seek asylum. Furthermore, while it doesn't necessarily apply to adults, religion could help develop values in children.

What do you all think about raising children with religion?
newbie
Activity: 12
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July 10, 2015, 12:41:52 AM
I'm an atheist and i don't hate any religion but i hate religious people.

I think most atheists hate religion  because of disrepectlful religious people. They always stereotype us,atheists, as devils ,demons and satanists. I've talk to some religious faggots (priests, pastors, etc.) and they said atheists will go to hell cuz atheists were minions of satan sent to earth to fight religion.

newbie
Activity: 15
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July 10, 2015, 12:24:26 AM
I'm an atheist. And I'm also a pragmatist. If a all-powerful, all-knowing god wants me to love it, it knows exactly how I came to love other human beings, it can do exactly the same things they did. At no cost to itself, seeing as how it is all-powerful. If it's too proud to make an attempt to personally try make contact, and rely upon all kinds of proxies... then, maybe it just wouldnt have ever worked out between us.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
July 09, 2015, 07:20:06 PM
Some theists will justify their fallacious thinking and superstition with so much mental gymnastics they should get a medal from the Special Olympics for mastery of the intellectually stunted arts.
Whenever you're ready to actually point out where and why I'm wrong, by all means, go for it
Every rational person reading this is either laughing at you or weeping for your wasted mind.

Some ideas by notable sources that you would deem crazy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

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A statement is called falsifiable if it is possible to conceive an observation or an argument which proves the statement in question to be false. In this sense, falsify is synonymous with nullify, meaning not "to commit fraud" but "show to be false". Some philosophers argue that science must be falsifiable.[1]

There is both observational and logical falsification.

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Popper held that science could not be grounded on such an inferential basis. He proposed falsification as a solution to the problem of induction.

The validity of science cannot be inferred from itself.  That empirical falsification exists in the first place is due to this understanding (not yours, unfortunately).

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Like all formal sciences, mathematics is not concerned with the validity of theories based on observations in the empirical world, but rather, mathematics is occupied with the theoretical, abstract study of such topics as quantity, structure, space and change. Methods of the mathematical sciences are, however, applied in constructing and testing scientific models dealing with observable reality. Albert Einstein wrote, "One reason why mathematics enjoys special esteem, above all other sciences, is that its laws are absolutely certain and indisputable, while those of other sciences are to some extent debatable and in constant danger of being overthrown by newly discovered facts."[32]

What mathematics finds true is totally independent from observation.  Einstein agrees.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/
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our reason [to be taken here quite generally, to include the imagination] must be consider'd as a kind of cause, of which truth is the natural effect..

Abstraction/reason and truth are linked.

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The normative component of Hume's project is striking here: That the principle of uniformity of nature cannot be proved deductively or inductively shows that it is not the principle that drives our causal reasoning only if our causal reasoning is sound and leads to true conclusions as a “natural effect” of belief in true premises. This is what licenses the capsule description of the argument as showing that induction cannot be justified or licensed either deductively or inductively; not deductively because (non-trivial) inductions do not express logically necessary connections, not inductively because that would be circular.

Logical principles are our fundamental basis for sound rationale, because we believe in the soundness of logic, and which are not dependent upon our observations of the uniformity of nature.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rationalism-empiricism/

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A more plausible argument for the Intuition/Deduction thesis again assumes that we know some particular, external world truths, and then appeals to the nature of what we know, rather than to the nature of knowledge itself, to argue that our knowledge must result from intuition and deduction. Leibniz (1704) tells us the following.

The senses, although they are necessary for all our actual knowledge, are not sufficient to give us the whole of it, since the senses never give anything but instances, that is to say particular or individual truths. Now all the instances which confirm a general truth, however numerous they may be, are not sufficient to establish the universal necessity of this same truth, for it does not follow that what happened before will happen in the same way again. … From which it appears that necessary truths, such as we find in pure mathematics, and particularly in arithmetic and geometry, must have principles whose proof does not depend on instances, nor consequently on the testimony of the senses, although without the senses it would never have occurred to us to think of them… (1704, Preface, pp. 150–151)

Yes, purely abstract "necessary truths" exist.

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Leibniz goes on to describe our mathematical knowledge as “innate,” and his argument may be directed to support the Innate Knowledge thesis rather than the Intuition/Deduction thesis. For our purposes here, we can relate it to the latter, however: We have substantive knowledge about the external world in mathematics, and what we know in that area, we know to be necessarily true. Experience cannot warrant beliefs about what is necessarily the case. Hence, experience cannot be the source of our knowledge.

So much for a purely Empirical worldview.

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Insofar as we focus on controversial claims in metaphysics, e.g., that God exists, that our mind is a distinct substance from our body, the initial premise that we know the claims is less than compelling. Taken with regard to other areas, however, the argument clearly has legs. We know a great deal of mathematics, and what we know, we know to be necessarily true. None of our experiences warrants a belief in such necessity, and we do not seem to base our knowledge on any experiences. The warrant that provides us with knowledge arises from an intellectual grasp of the propositions which is clearly part of our learning.

Our knowledge of logical principles a prior gives plausibility to metaphysical claims.

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Insofar as [rationalists] maintain that our knowledge of necessary truths in mathematics or elsewhere by intuition and deduction is substantive knowledge of the external world, they owe us an account of this form of necessity.

That's what I've been doing for at least several dozen posts now.  Other atheists in this thread have certainly entertained their plausibility.  You can't even respond intelligently to them.

Do you have any idea how many countless millions of academics, including scientists, do not ascribe to a purely empirical worldview?  By your beliefs, every single meta-physicist and quantum scientist is bat-shit crazy -- there has never been a single shred of empirical evidence for either field.  They do absolutely nothing different than what I'm doing, i.e. using logic and mathematics to make abstract models that attempt to coincide with a classical understanding of our reality.
sr. member
Activity: 444
Merit: 260
July 09, 2015, 06:36:21 PM
I'm not sure if this has been raised before, but the title is an oxymoron, atheism is a religion so the title assumes atheists are self loathing. I don't think they are self loathing, but they are a religion.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
July 09, 2015, 06:19:05 PM
Some theists will justify their fallacious thinking and superstition with so much mental gymnastics they should get a medal from the Special Olympics for mastery of the intellectually stunted arts.
Whenever you're ready to actually point out where and why I'm wrong, by all means, go for it
Every rational person reading this is either laughing at you or weeping for your wasted mind.

Lol trust me, they're not.  I've had more than enough acknowledgement from atheists in this thread.  You, on the other hand, have continually demonstrated a lack of capacity to formulate any kind of direct rebuttal.
hero member
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July 09, 2015, 05:56:23 PM
Some theists will justify their fallacious thinking and superstition with so much mental gymnastics they should get a medal from the Special Olympics for mastery of the intellectually stunted arts.
Whenever you're ready to actually point out where and why I'm wrong, by all means, go for it
Every rational person reading this is either laughing at you or weeping for your wasted mind.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
July 09, 2015, 05:55:14 PM
Some theists will justify their fallacious thinking and superstition with so much mental gymnastics they should get a medal from the Special Olympics for mastery of the intellectually stunted arts.

Lol.  Yeah, dude.  Whenever you're ready to actually point out where and why I'm wrong, by all means, go for it Wink
hero member
Activity: 784
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July 09, 2015, 05:48:48 PM
Some theists will justify their fallacious thinking and superstition with so much mental gymnastics they should get a medal from the Special Olympics for mastery of the intellectually stunted arts.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
July 09, 2015, 05:19:43 PM
Let me ask you a serious question: does it really sound like I'm just pulling all of this out of my you-know-what?
Of course you believe what you're writing,  that doesn't make you any less wrong about the universe.

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1) How do you confuse "superstitious" with a belief in something due to logical necessity?
You admitted your religious belief in an invisible diety. Religion us a subset of superstition. There's no confusion on my end.

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I acknowledge I'm religious to the extent that I believe ID is the mechanism by which realty self-creates (because it is logically necessary).  I make exact zero assumptions in formulating my belief.  Yes, I know what assumptions are.
You make "no" assumptions? I guess were not counting the big, obvious assumption that the universe has a creator,  and that you have some sort of relationship with him.

*Sigh*...really?

Okay, I'm going to keep focusing on one specific point -- one that you continually ignore and have not addressed even once, despite my repetition of it -- until you get it.  It's a point that's not in any way novel on my behalf, one that is accepted in academia, and one for which I can provide literally dozens of credible references for.  It's a critically important point, because you are forever a hypocrite until you acknowledge it.

Disclaimer:  This is going to sound patronizing, but it's not intended to be -- I'm just going to break it down as much as possible until you get it.  To your credit, the point is easily overlooked because of the ad populum opinion that scientific reasoning is the only kind that matters -- but it isn't.  It focuses specifically on the reasoning behind scientific reasoning.

Okay, here we go:

First, I'll start with a couple assumptions I have about your point of view based upon what you've said:

1) You believe only observable things are worth believing in, else it's some form of superstition.
2) You believe that empirical reasoning is the highest standard of (cognitive) knowledge.

Second, now that we have that out of the way, let's lay out a few of my own claims:

1) I know that some abstract things, which are not observable by definition, are worth believing in.  For example, a thought is not observable; a mathematical law is not observable; etc.
2) I know logical reasoning is the highest standard of (cognitive) knowledge.  For now, I'll just concentrate on showing you that it's a higher standard of knowledge than empirical knowledge.

Now, it's clarification time.  Empiricism is an abstract theory:

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em·pir·i·cism
əmˈpirəˌsizəm/
nounPHILOSOPHY
the theory that all knowledge is derived from sense-experience. Stimulated by the rise of experimental science, it developed in the 17th and 18th centuries, expounded in particular by John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume.

All theories adhere not to physical structure, but to an abstract mathematical/logical structure.  There is zero physical evidence to validate Empiricism.  In other words, you are believing in a theory yourself with absolutely zero physical evidence to support that theory.  The reason that Empiricism works is because of purely philosophical reasoning.  

Specifically, we defer to Philosophy and say, "Okay, if we want to objectively describe objects in terms of each other, then we must assume that observation has zero physical effect on objective reality.  So, we will simply control for participant observation and set an assumption that an observer causes no effect on physical phenomena."

This assumption has zero empirical basis, and is empirically unfalsifiable.  To empirically falsify this assumption would require that you collect empirical data, i.e. data collected via observation, in a world totally void of any and all observers.  Obviously, this leads to an irreconcilable contradiction, as it is impossible to observe something if the rule is there cannot be any observers to begin with.

So, taking your perspective, I can simply say, "Oh, look how irrational you are!  You believe in something imaginary!  You believe that observation has no effect on physical phenomena, but there's not a single shred of evidence anywhere to support this belief!"

And surely, you would refute this, claiming something to the effect of, "Dude, obviously Empiricism works.  Look at the technological advances we've made, and look how much knowledge and understanding we've gained of certain natural processes."

But what your explanation wouldn't include -- because you lack understanding of it -- is that, again, it works because of an underlying, purely philosophical validation.  That is, Empiricism "works" because we can simply rely upon inductive reasoning as a result of the limitation we have set (again, that limitation is imposed by simply assuming that observer participation has no effect on objective reality).

This makes you a hypocrite.  You are perfectly content believing in an invisible assumption for which there is no evidence.  It is purely abstract, empirically unfalsifiable, and the burden of proof entails deference to -- not evidence, but -- a purely logical argument.  And would ya look at that?!  Something "invisible" has been validated by -- you guessed it! -- logic.

In other words, you are willing to make a complete and total departure from science in order to validate Empiricism.  If you are willing to do such a thing (and you must in order to maintain your belief in its validity, whether you acknowledge it or not), then you are a hypocrite if you maintain that one cannot make a total departure from science in order to validate some other "imaginary" theory.

What matters is if the logical validation is sound.  Period.

Edit:  Here is your claim in the form of a deductive argument:

Premise 1: God is invisible, and therefore has no physical evidence.
Premise 2: If there is no physical evidence for something, it's stupid to believe in it.
Therefore:  It is stupid to believe in God.

Now, referring to Empiricism

Premise 1: The theory of Empiricism, and its underlying assumptions, are invisible, and therefore have no physical evidence.
Premise 2: If there is no physical evidence for something, it's stupid to believe in it.
Therefore:  It is stupid to believe in the theory of Empiricism, and its underlying assumptions.

 Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 784
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July 09, 2015, 04:42:48 PM
Let me ask you a serious question: does it really sound like I'm just pulling all of this out of my you-know-what?
Of course you believe what you're writing,  that doesn't make you any less wrong about the universe.

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1) How do you confuse "superstitious" with a belief in something due to logical necessity?
You admitted your religious belief in an invisible diety. Religion us a subset of superstition. There's no confusion on my end.

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I acknowledge I'm religious to the extent that I believe ID is the mechanism by which realty self-creates (because it is logically necessary).  I make exact zero assumptions in formulating my belief.  Yes, I know what assumptions are.
You make "no" assumptions? I guess were not counting the big, obvious assumption that the universe has a creator,  and that you have some sort of relationship with him.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
July 09, 2015, 03:40:13 PM
You mean give religious people a bad rep. (Which I actually figured you were doing)

I can assure you nothing anybody says on here can give religion a worse rep than it has awarded itself already. Isn't it right the subscribers to the religion also take the burden of that bad rep on their shoulders?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11835382

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
July 09, 2015, 02:52:52 PM
Other than coming to the conclusion that Intelligent Design is the mechanism by which reality self-creates, I'm not even religious.
Frankly I'm impressed that you even acknowledged your chosen set of beliefs was superstition at all, that level of intellectual self-awareness and self-honesty puts you miles ahead of the average theist!

Edit: Nevermind, false alarm. You're religious and dishonest (with us and likely yourself), like so many other theist cowards are when confronted about their faith on the internet. How boring.

@the joint: You say you believe in God as the intelligent designer. Do you believe God exists now or simply did exist but not anymore?

Yes, He exists, and His existence is dual in nature.

If you believe in God, you're religious.  Sorry, but you can't sneak your way into the Cool Kidz' Rationality Club without at least a basic understanding of burden of proof.

Let me ask you a serious question: does it really sound like I'm just pulling all of this out of my you-know-what?

1) How do you confuse "superstitious" with a belief in something due to logical necessity?

2a) I acknowledge I'm religious to the extent that I believe ID is the mechanism by which realty self-creates (because it is logically necessary).  I make exact zero assumptions in formulating my belief.  Yes, I know what assumptions are.

2b) I already explained you how the burden of proof differs between an empirical claim and a logical claim, and also provided differences between respective falsification methods.  If you can logically falsify my claim, go for it.  Contrarily, I have absolute, tautological proof.  If something is logically necessary, what sane person wouldn't believe in it (assuming they are aware of the proof, e.g. if someone has spent ~13 years and committed multiple thousands of hours intensely exploring the subject matter)? 

2c)  The burden of proof for a belief in God is the same standard as a burden of proof for belief in the validity of Empirical exploration, i.e. it is a logical one.  There is exactly zero empirical evidence which validates empirical science; it is entirely validated through sound philosophical reasoning.  Whereas you seem unable to recognize that you must defer to purely abstract reasoning to validate its use, I do, and furthermore I recognize that the same type of philosophical reasoning can soundly be applied to rationalize about truth in general.  You can scream and shout all you want and think that a lack of empirical evidence is a good reason to not believe in ID; it isn't, provably.  This isn't even novel information.  See Hume.

I remind you again that I used to be an atheist.  It's a logically untenable position, and most atheists get stuck at the invalid assumption, "...But there's no physical evidence!"  Yeah, I was stuck there for years...until I understood why it's invalid.  Now, further regarding 'burden of proof,' if you want to make the argument that my burden is that I must present something physical and that logical proof doesn't count, then I'm going to call you simply uneducated on the subject, encourage you to learn more about the relationship between Philosophy and Empiricism, and come back when you concede logical proof is the highest standard for knowledge.  That point isn't up for debate.
hero member
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July 09, 2015, 02:40:36 PM
Considering BADecker values rocks greater than homosexual people, this is the type of hate post he would write.
Particularly hypocritical considering he's using a computer to spew such ignorance, when Alan Turing himself was a homosexual!
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
July 09, 2015, 02:35:04 PM
You mean give religious people a bad rep. (Which I actually figured you were doing)

I can assure you nothing anybody says on here can give religion a worse rep than it has awarded itself already. Isn't it right the subscribers to the religion also take the burden of that bad rep on their shoulders?
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
July 09, 2015, 01:54:36 PM
Atheists are mostly homosexuals so it doesn't matter what they think or feel, they belong to prison  Smiley

Really! what a shameful comment, What do you really thinking when you wrote this comment? You can force anyone to believe on your religion.

I'm an atheist myself, I'm just trying to blackmail religion  Smiley

You mean give religious people a bad rep. (Which I actually figured you were doing)

As I said it wasn't a Christian statement.
legendary
Activity: 1168
Merit: 1049
July 09, 2015, 01:50:49 PM
So I see 2 threads of why islam hates people or why people hate Islam. I dont see the point of such a mundane debate based on religion any debate for or against religion would be stupid. Either you are stupid to believe what a prophet / god / divine entity said or you are stupid enough to believe you can change the minds of the bleak minded people who follow such a prophet / god / divine entity.

But since its fun let me initiate my own brand of 'why do' topic.

WHY DO ATHEISTS (like me) HATE RELIGION ?

Seriously what has to happen in a person's life for them to seriously give up hope on the one true everlasting brand (of religion) which their ancestors have followed for generations.

Everyone has their own story even I have mine, so lets hear some of it.



No, I don't think they are but certainly some people from other religions will perceive it that way.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
July 09, 2015, 01:47:01 PM
Atheists are mostly homosexuals so it doesn't matter what they think or feel, they belong to prison  Smiley

Really! what a shameful comment, What do you really thinking when you wrote this comment? You can force anyone to believe on your religion.

Considering BADecker values rocks greater than homosexual people, this is the type of hate post he would write.
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