Topic: Why do people hate islam? - page 109. (Read 221036 times)

About paradise it seems we have different understanding about it. In Islam, paradise does not contain any of the four things mentioned. There is where one will have absolute peace and contentment, no backbiting and no jealousy. There are many descriptions of paradise that can be found in Quran and Hadith, this is one of them.
"Gardens of perpetual residence, which they will enter, beneath which rivers flow. They will have therein whatever they wish. Thus does Allah reward the righteous -" (16:31)
http://quran.com/16/31
But of course it is not for free, this world is a test and only who passes it is worthy of paradise.
"Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until [even their] messenger and those who believed with him said,"When is the help of Allah ?" Unquestionably, the help of Allah is near." (2:214)
http://quran.com/2/214
Doing corruption, destruction, injustice and evil are against teachings of Islam and who does any of them will only help one reach hell instead of paradise.

As for the last point I stand with my explanation, you dont have to agree if you dont want to.

Of course, including atheists as well. And the meaning of the term kafir below
I would argue if there is a god which created this whole universe and maintain it, it is natural to think god has much higher authority than us to decide what religion anybody should have. I would argue more that god has the upmost authority to decide over anything.
The issue is that there are a lot of different religions out there that claim what they believe in is the true religion that came from god.
If there is a god and if there is a true religion out of the many, what do you think the criteria that should be taken in picking out the right religion?

And if you have time please watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5eXu2yZZuk
The two speakers go through intellectual thought process to arrive at the existence of god and discuss about the purpose of life.
I thought about this video while writing response to you, they provide in the video much better arguments, have much broader perspective compared to me and will give much better explanation than I ever could.

Every Muslim has the responsibility of delivering the message of Islam to others. Some may accept, some may not, and some dont even want to consider it. Of course it is not going to be easy.

Since I joined this thread you have been making wild claims and I am putting them here just for my reference and other readers. List below is ordered chronologically.

1 ) Claiming I dont know the history of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)

2 ) Claiming so many quotes in Hadeeth and Quran telling prophet is a violent person

3 ) Claiming Islam condone terrorism
There are 2 billion Muslims on this earth, good luck with that. See last point for islamic view on terrorism.

4 ) Claiming there are thousands of hadeeths that say prophet is violent person
"Need more?" Well yes, I am still waiting.

5 ) Claiming Quran was not written in arabic and claiming arabic was invented in 9th century
Arabic has existed well before 7th century

6 ) Claiming narrations from Al-Tabari can be found in Sahih Bukhari or Muslim
While this may be true for authentic hadiths but the wording seems to say every narration in it can be found in Sahihs.
And so my response which I have not recieve answers to.
Info on Al-Tabari:

7 ) Claiming Muhammad (peace be upon him) suffered nothing and made others suffer. Also claiming "hijacking Jesus' legend".
For anyone who is open minded and want to have more understanding of Islam and the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon) please read history of the prophet. And a very concise version of this you can find in link below.
http://www.inter-islam.org/Seerah/iSeerah.html
And see what non-Muslims that have actually studied the history of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) have written
https://www.alislam.org/library/links/eyes.html

8 ) Claiming Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be ancestor of europeans

9 ) Claiming Muslims are lying. Well this is just convenient, anything Muslims say you can easily refute them by calling them a liar.
Being a liar is one way to get to hell according to Hadith below
"'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) as saying: Truth leads one to Paradise and virtue leads one to Paradise and the person tells the truth until he is recorded as truthful, and lie leads to obscenity and obscenity leads to Hell, and the person tells a lie until he is recorded as a liar." (Sahih Muslim)
http://sunnah.com/muslim/45/134
And below was my post of Islams' stance on killing of innocents.
I put bold for emphasis. There are also other passages in the Quran and Hadeeths that condemn acts of terrorism. Please refer Fatwa on Terrorism for more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa_on_Terrorism
Download link
http://www.spittoon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/FATWA-on-Terrorism-and-Suicide-Bombings.pdf
And literal meaning of jihad is 'struggle'.

If peace-ability is the benchmark for a religion then there is only one true religion and the Buddha is his prophet.

Yes, I had already noticed the syntactical anomalies and understood their use.  Grammar is key, and when used with carefully selected and defined words, creates lofty phrases with purpose, but no meaning, except obedience.

RE the medical claims made by Mo, clearly, those who are immersed in a culture and a life which requires reverence would somehow rationalize those claims, and those who were outside that mindset would see them quite clearly.  I don't attach any deep significance either way to that.  Certainly, the great truths and great lies of human existence are not such as these small wrong assertions.

In fact, where I live, Islamic followers are 10x as fervent as we Christians.

Who says I hate Islam? I'm Christian but I see no problem with people carefully considering every single ****ing (see, not perfect, I swear) religion.

Was just reading an interesting text about Islam. Deception on Islam, a sort of dictionary. After a terrorist attack you may listen Muslims saying things like "Islam doesn't support the killing of innocents" or "Islam doesn't support terrorism"... well... if you can interpret this as a Muslim they aren't lying, if you interpret this as a rational human being, they are casting big fat lies.

So how come they are lying but telling the truth?

A: They twist the meaning on secondary words.

When they say "Islam doesn't support the killing of innocents", they are talking about their own definition of innocents, not the one you usually give. For innocents they actually mean Muslims, as all non-Muslims are Kaffir and therefore not innocent. And even within Muslims they may mean their own sect of Islam, as they consider other Muslims heretic for some reason.

When they say "Islam doesn't support terrorism", goes around the same. They don't interpret "terrorism" as we do, for them it is "Jihad", "fighting in the ways of Allah".

Ancient medical claims made by Muhammad... it means he was medically ignorant, and actually overall ignorant like his peers, because Allah said nothing, Allah is equally ignorant, and if Allah is ignorant then everything Mo said is attached to his own limited knowledge and not to any divine inspiration.

To the end, the most funny thing about it, is to see Arabs following so blindly a white guy, and they gave relevance enough for we to know he was white up to write it down. They should be worshiping Europeans, Europeans are of Muhammad's race, they aren't.

I think I prefer hunger.  But it would not be wise to critique ancient medical claims, since in the past, religious knowledge often encapsulated such things.  I guess they are maintained to this day as a cultural tradition, more than as a religious law.  We eat pork, they don't.  But the reasons are no longer the issues of disease transmission through pork which originally caused such rules to be included in religious creeds.  The reasons now are simply tradition.

And don't forget those who are of no religion, such as I, those whom do not qualify as "people of the book", those who are utter infidels, kafir, by the tenets of your creeds, and all of what that means, to the various sects and subdivisions of your religion.

There is very little misunderstanding on my part on these matters, but I do agree with you that there is in the world much misunderstanding, central to it is your animosity toward your traditional and historical enemies, those evil Jooooeees.  Much misunderstanding is fomented and much hate is kept alive by selectively using parts of old religious tracts, often about this or that piece of land being "holy".  That is of course total nonsense, there is no piece of land with attributes holier than another, because there is no such thing as "holy".

It is a hollow shell, with no meaning whatsoever.  Oh, and by the way, neither Christians nor Jews have any comparable evil to your splintered sects which follow Sayd Qutb.

So much effort into defending Islam...  
Defend what has no defense is a hard task, isn't it, Mr. Imam?


So let's corrupt, destruct, add sectarian justice and spread more evil? Is that your goal?
Making a Paradise here relies on all of us, not in your imaginary friend.

Edit:

I also see you didn't understand what I said.
When I refer to the strange "Jesus-Mo" link, I'm referring to such a stupid statement as "Muhammad suffered", this is hijacking Jesus' legend, Muhammad suffered nothing, made others suffer.
And the lawyer part, is that you SOUND like a lawyer defending a psychopath with the usual "he had a difficult childhood" argument.

Then this:


Let me clarify to you; urine is a known "treatment" to psoriasis and other skin problems in topic application: this means directly in the affected skin. It does absolutely nothing, but nausea and spikes of salt in the system, to drink it.
Camel milk has absolutely no effect on healing anything, is just a plain regular milk, the only thing it "heals" is hunger. Your claims are pure snake oil.

"Ever wonder that we don't have the other side of the story, mainly because Muhammad killed them?"
Wow! Such speculation! There is speculation subforum in Bitcointalk you know.
I am still waiting for the thousands hadeeths that you claim telling the prophet was a violent person.

Camel milk and urine do not sound medicinal today but 1430 years ago people dont have much to go by and Muslims believe anything that Allah or Muhammad (peace be upon him) has commanded to do is for our own good. We know the benefits of milk but camel urine, maybe site below can clarify
http://islamqa.info/en/83423

I do not understand what you mean by "Jesus-Muhammad" link. Jesus or Isa (peace be upon him) was one of the messenger of Allah and Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the final messenger of Allah.
And no need to involve lawyer here, just read his life story. Site below is a very concise seerah if you dont have time.
http://www.inter-islam.org/Seerah/iSeerah.html

Show me where the two narrations that you quoted before from Al-Tabari can be found in Sahih Bukhari or Muslim.

I did not mention paradise and certainly I am not trying to scam anybody. If what Quran is saying is the truth then the truth will reveal itself, I am just trying to give people motivation to read it, try to understand and be open minded. Forcing anybody to accept any religion is prohibited in Islam.
"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." (2:256)
http://quran.com/2/256
And how can the world that is contained within it corruption, destruction, injustice, and evil be paradise?

From what I can understand, I dont see the verse saying it is allowed to hate any religion. Firstly it says "practices" and not "every practice". Maybe it was just referring to bad practices. Secondly even if it was saying hate to their religion that does not mean one can hate other religion as well. I would assume there were many other religions at that time and that verse only referring to one group. Find me a verse that clearly says "hate other religion except for christianity" or similar.

Preaching with love and hate at the same time? I dont see how that is possible. And does this St. Paul refers to Paul the Apostle? If yes, I have one questions about him. He was born after the time of Jesus but why did he have so much authority on the bible? The bible is supposed to be the teachings of Jesus but 14 books out of 27 are attributed to Paul.

"Further, when the people of any religion that is not the truth, will not turn from the falsehood, they have become a part of it."
What is the point of preaching if people will not turn from falsehood?

"The creed of the soldier is to do what it takes to win the goal. This is very much like the theme of every religious creed."
Woah, that is not in Islam belief.

"But if they persist ..."
What will happen?

This may just be me, but your hate preaching is not bringing a good picture of christianity.

I made that distinction because I always see people putting Jehovah Witness under bad light but they were friendly to me. When people say bad things about one group it builds up negative preconception people have on that group, the same thing is happening to Islam today in the media. If any Muslim does bad thing, Islam comes up. You rarely see this happening with other religions or beliefs. Now we have some new voculabularies such as "islamist", "jihadist", and so on that are used when some Muslims do atrocities, even when people hearing the word "terrorist" they will think of an arab with beard and turban fledging ak-47. The media keeps on doing this to damage peoples view on Islam.

1 verse from the Quran
"Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors." (5:32)
http://quran.com/5/32
Killing of one innocent person irregardless of religion, belief, gender or race is forbidden in Islam and it is equivalent to killing the whole of mankind according to the verse above.
More verses from the Quran on this topic
http://english.islammessage.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?articleId=931
So dont hate Islam for atrocities of some Muslim groups as Islam clearly forbids anything that involves killing of innocent persons.

Killings of innocent persons is not Islam as Quran verse above tells. Dont need any fatwa to tell that. Unfortunately some people take just some verses from the Quran without proper understanding of the context to justify their actions.

"This becomes the theme, the central narrative of Islam."
If you are following mainstream media you will likely only hear this because it sells, unfortunately. And second, put your tinfoil hat on. Mass media has agendas against Islam and large portion of them are being controlled by jews.
http://theunjustmedia.com/Media/Six%20Jewish%20Companies%20Control%2096%25%20of%20the%20World%E2%80%99s%20Media.htm
As an example, if you watched US mainstream news about Israel and Palestine, Israel is potrayed as victim and Palestinian as terrorist. Thankfully, internet has given people more access to alternative news source.

It is nice to hear that you do not hate Islam. There are fatwas against groups such as ISIS but they are not heard of because of the reason above. There is also a book, Fatwa on Terrorism which condemn act of terrorism and suicide bombing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa_on_Terrorism

"Certainly many consider that these minority violent fragments of Islam are quietly and passively tolerated by the greater societies of Islam, and are often funded under the table by many who would not openly admit it."
I have never met any Muslim that tolerate these violent groups. "often funded under the table" I dont know about that, if you have reliable source please share.

"Evidence points in that direction.  We know many in Saudi Arabian supported the 911 hijackers, we know Pakistanis celebrated with street parties at 911, we know that ISIS and many other violent groups are supported monetarily by other Muslims."
I dont know any of that, please give some sources if you have.

Allah has sent the Quran as guidance for human beings but there are some people with corruption in their hearts that want to deviate from the guidance of Quran for their own gain, status, ego, agendas, desires, etc. One likely cannot understand fully the message of the Quran and a more knowledgeable person is needed to clarify it. It happens that the person that one can only refer to belongs to a deviant teaching. As such one must put effort in understanding the religion by oneself to avoid following it and also Muslims are commanded by Allah to ask Him for help and guidance everytime we make prayer.
"It is You we worship and You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path -" (1:5-6)
http://quran.com/1

I agree with the last point, dialogue between Muslim and non-Muslim can broaden up perspective in search of solutions to the problems that we are seeing today and working together is better than by oneself. Moreover it can also relieve tensions and misunderstandings between different people of different religions.

It will always return to this with Islam.  If not the 1984 Israeli murders in the Olympics, if not the 1993 attempt to bomb the World Trade Center, if not a copilot of a 747 yelling "Allah Akbar" as he drove that jet into the sea, if not the 2001 atrocities, if not the beheadings, if not a "Soldier of Allah" killing at Ft. Hood, Texas, if not yet another "Muslim convert" beheading a woman in Oklahoma, if not ISIS.....

Over and over and over.  This becomes the theme, the central narrative of Islam.  

I don't HATE Islam, but in the absence of strong and near unanimous FATWAs from the religious leaders against these barbarians in their midst, I cannot respect it one bit.   It is unworthy of respect.  Does not matter if some believe it is good, the best, the word of god, blah blah blah.

Certainly many consider that these minority violent fragments of Islam are quietly and passively tolerated by the greater societies of Islam, and are often funded under the table by many who would not openly admit it.  

Evidence points in that direction.  We know many in Saudi Arabian supported the 911 hijackers, we know Pakistanis celebrated with street parties at 911, we know that ISIS and many other violent groups are supported monetarily by other Muslims.

The historical evidence does not show that the Muslim religion contains sufficient clarity to adequately safeguard against what you call "deviant teachings."  That is I think what others on this thread have been trying to explain to you.  The books themselves can and do support the "deviant teachings".

To adequately comprehend the problem, it is best that a Muslim discuss such a matter with reasonably knowledgeable non-Muslims, whether they be Christian or atheist or something else.  In many cases they will be far less biased than your own mullahs and such and will see things clearly.

1 word: ISIS

should I say more ?

Hating a religion isn't necessarily preaching hate on the people of that religion. But it might be.

Consider the Revelation where Jesus says to the church in Ephesus, "But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

Perhaps St. Paul never said, "I hate such and such religion." But he certainly showed it by vigorously trying to convert people from all other religions to Christianity. Barely did he preach against a particular religion. Probably never did he use the words, "I hate ...," but you can't get much stronger hate for religions at the same time there was love and hope for the people of those religions. His actions showed it.

Further, when the people of any religion that is not the truth, will not turn from the falsehood, they have become a part of it. So, it is not the people that are being hated. It is the religion in them that is being hated.

Consider war... Vietnam. Our guys finally hated "them" because they were killing our guys. Perhaps we were not justified in being there, but there was hate on both sides. The creed of the soldier is to do what it takes to win the goal. This is very much like the theme of every religious creed. The fact that their are friendships made between enemies at times, and the fact that there are peaceful negotiations being done at times, doesn't lessen the hate at other times.

Christianity has been at war with Islam for hundreds of years. Many Muslims have converted to Christianity. There is no hate for them. It is for the religion that there is hate. But if they persist ...



EDIT: Jehovah's Witness is a Christian denomination, not a separate religion.

As always Muslims find every barbaric deed of Muhammad "justified". Ever wonder that we don't have the other side of the story, mainly because Muhammad killed them?
And how is camel urine and milk working for medicine? Good?... 

Often, specially with Western born Muslims, we see some "Jesus-Muhammad" link at their heads. They say about a murderous warlord things like "he suffered a lot"... yeah right! That just sounds like a lawyer defending his client with "he had a difficult childhood".

About Al-Tabari, you will find the same or similar texts at Bukhari or Muslim.


Actually anything is better than your notions of "Paradise"...
Make Paradise HERE, don't get lured by the ultimate scam, the scam you will just find out you were scammed once you are dead and nothing can be done about it.

If you are preaching hate on a religion you are also sowing hatred to the people that believe in it.
Show me in the bible where it states it is allowed to hate other religions. I had a conversation with a couple of Jehovah Witnesses about 3 weeks ago and it was one of the friendliest conversations for one and a half hour I have had with strangers. I did not feel any hatred from them and they even gave me a copy of a bible for free.

As I said in my first post in this thread my knowledge is very limited but I will try to clarify this matter with some information I found on the net. I will only touch on the hadeeths from authentic sources such as Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. And on Al-Tabari:
While it is true that a Muslim should always consult people that are more knowledgable in the issue of religion, every Muslim must make an effort to read the Quran with understanding. God has given human beings with the capacity of reason to apply them in our lives and to understand His revelations, to take lessons and to apply them. Although many Muslims do not speak arabic but there are translation of the Quran in many languages available. There is nothing in Islam that limit understanding of the Quran only through arabic language, only in our prayers must one recite the Quran in arabic.
Another important source of knowledge for Muslims is the Sunnah which means way of the prophet. In the Quran it is commanded for every Muslim to pray and the details of prayer such as times of prayer, how to pray etc. are found in the Sunnah. Through the Sunnah, Muslims are also thought how to lead everydays lives such as how to conduct with people, manners, patience and so on.
Putting an effort to study Quran and Sunnah by oneself can avoid a Muslim from following a bad mullah or imam or fall into deviant teachings.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Arabic
The Quran itself has a claim that it was sent in arabic.
"Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand" (12:2)
http://quran.com/12/2

========================================================================

I hope you can give religion a second chance. I would argue there are also organized groups that are not influenced by any religion have made many corruption and brought destruction to this earth. Lets start in the early 20th century, since this is Bitcointalk I want to mention the feds and banks. No religion was involved in the establishment of the feds just pure greed. The same goes for the banks both are stealing wealth from the majority and give it to a few. The reason usury was forbidden in many religion because it is an opressive tool, it sucks wealth from the poor and give it to the rich. And world wars, no religion involved there. Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Vietnam war, pure atrocities. There are still people effected by agent orange in Vietnam. Many more issues in the recent years that do not have any religious influence over it. And of course, not denying also crazy people that made a mess and use religion as justification.

Human beings can be the best and the worst. My believe is that Islam can bring the best out of a person. In Islam we believe in absolute accountability, if you are not judged for what you have done in this world, you will be judged in the next life.
"That Day, the people will depart separated [into categories] to be shown [the result of] their deeds. So whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it, And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it." (99:6-8)
http://quran.com/99
If people really take this to heart, people will really try to be the best they can. And there are guidance and lessons in the Quran to nurture a person to be the best they can.
"We have certainly created man in the best of stature" (95:4)
http://quran.com/95/4

But important question remains, is Islam the truth?
For anybody with Jewish or Christian background, MisGod’ed is a good book to start with.
The book is available free for download.
http://leveltruth.com/?p=1214
And the second book in the series, God’ed studies the case for Islam as the completion of Revelation. Also available free for download.
http://leveltruth.com/?p=1219

As for atheists or agnostics, maybe this story can give you something to think about.
http://www.haqislam.org/imam-abu-hanifah-and-the-atheist/
If there is nothing that can convince you that there is god, it is rational to assume that there is afterlife. For if there is nothing after death you have nothing to lose or gain but if there is afterlife, what will be your fate on that time? And if Islam is the truth, the life after death will be for eternity.
I hope it would give you some motivation in the search for the truth.

May Allah guide you all.

There are things you do religiously. Some of them are habits. Some of them you do at the same time everyday. Some of them you think about; some of them you don't. Together they comprise your personal religion.

Religions...

Good. You checked it out then. Because I had read this, but I never checked it in detail.

Thanks.