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Topic: Why do people hate islam? - page 77. (Read 221075 times)

legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
September 25, 2015, 07:19:42 AM

I'm gonna provide you a link so you understand why your answer is a strawman. But first, I would ask that you re-read the question, and answer it as stated, rather than putting on the Christian lens and ignoring the question.

so, again. If there is a god, it is all powerful, and it wishes to be worshipped, how many religions could their possibly be?

The link following is something I constantly refer to myself. Debate and logic have a specific structure for a reason. Logical fallacies when committed by accident or habit obscure the truth. When committed deliberately, one has to wonder what the true motives of the person committing them are.
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html


Regarding your link, thanks. But I am not interested in being trained into the limited logic of somebody else. I'll stick to my own limited logic.

If you want REAL logic, fill yourself on the Word of God, the Bible, and there's a good chance you'll wake up.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
September 25, 2015, 07:12:11 AM
Quote from: BADecker
If you dropped formal religion, including Christianity, out of life, what would you get? You would get the same things that you get with the formal religions, except God and guidance. Essentially, there would be a whole lot more corruption, a whole lot more warring, a whole lot more "badness" among people.

I strongly disagree. In those nations where religion holds less sway, we see LESS of the above. See Sweden for a good example. Of course the argument could be made that socialism is itself a formal religion, but you are specifically referring to Christianity and to a lesser extent, other theistic religions.
Quote

People who do bad things will use whatever methods they can to do bad things. They will take as much good as they can, and twist it to their own ways, to make it bad. Without the good of the formal religions, things would be a lot worse. If you think that people couldn't or wouldn't design bad things without formal religion, you are extremely naive.

On the contrary, in a rational world bad people do bad things and good people do good things. (I'll get into "good" and "evil" in a moment). With the backing of religion, good people do bad things, and often with a clear conscience. For a number of good examples from within your book, just read the book of Exodus. Granted, most of it is false, like zero evidence that the Hebrews were ever slaves in egypt for instance, but it openly condones putting entire populations to the sword in the name of "The LORD of HOSTS" if you like the KJV, or more correctly translated The God of Armies or Jehovah (medieval latin) or Yahwey as most modern scholars believe the name to be properly pronounced. One of the things commanded by your god was the dashing of babies against the rocks. And do not give me the "sins of the father" argument, because there is NO moral or ethical way to justify it. Which is pretty bad for your religion, because it's the crux of your beliefs. (see what I did there? Crux is short for Crucifix).
Quote

Religion offers guidance towards goodness. Even a formally semi-violent religion like Islam offers guidance towards goodness in this life. Think of how bad it would be without religion.

This is a tamer version of what Christians often say to atheists. It scares the shit out of me. Because what you're really saying is that without some religion going on, then people IN GENERAL are going to run rampant, murdering, raping, stealing, and generally being assholes. This tells us a LOT about the religious mindset. Luckily, we have all of history to prove it untrue. If humans were inherently evil, using the term the way religious people do, then no such books would be written, and given that none of the thousands of gods does a fucking thing, even if they were no one would care. Our species would not have survived. For the most part, we do not need to be told that it's wrong to attack and kill our fellow men and women. Crime is actually a pretty low percentage of human activity, once you take away statutory crime. (that's a discussion for another time). And as one would expect without the religious mindset, the worst crimes are the least common. A guy might not think twice about grabbing a loaf of bread, but will think a lot harder about assault or murder, even if he's deviant.

The truth, clearly observable if you have ANY grasp of reality and the ability to think, is that people are generally pretty neutral. We're a social species, so we work out ways to interact with each other. We also are pack animals, so we tend to make codes, such as religion, that make the "outsider" somehow less than human. That is just as egregious as theism, but it's at least something we can recognize and mitigate IN THE ABSENCE of religion. Within the framework of religion, the "other" will always be subhuman. It is not an accident that secularization of the world led to the largest population of humans ever. Civilized men rarely kill because of "god" anymore, with a few glaring exceptions. Unfortunately, those glaring exceptions are good at getting themselves into positions of power (which is a big part of why I'm an anarchist as well as an atheist).
Quote
More important, even if there were no badness along with no formal religion, that is, even if people were not mean and bad, period, they would still get old and die. Old age and death seem to be built into the "genetics" of nature. Why do I mention this? Because old age isn't something that is nice and good. It is wicked and evil. It leads to death, and eternal death which includes agony of soul forever.

Religion stands firmly in the way of mitigating death by providing the obvious fairy tale you present below. There is just about zero evidence that anything "survives" death except energy, which is never destroyed. There is a whole lot of evidence that we could extend life indefinitely via technologies that Christians oppose on "principle" because it's "playing god". Well, I for one ain't playing. At base, god means creator, and we are the most creative species we are aware of. In fact, even when I was religious, that bothered me. If we're made in god's image, as Christians and Jews presuppose, then why do Christians stand so heavily AGAINST being creative? (again, this is something of a deviation from the discussion, but something you ought to think about)

The pursuit of immortality predates Christianity by a rather large number of millenia. The ability to pursue it by technical means is just now falling into place, but a lot of that research has been very vocally opposed by Christians. For examples of the works, I suggest you google the methuselah mouse prize, SENS, and Dr. Aubrey DeGrey. It's beyond the scope of this discussion. I've been heavily involved in it for several decades now.
Quote
At least the Christian religion shows us the way out of death which would not be known without the formal Christian religion. Without the Bible it would almost be absolutely, formally unknown.

The point? Without the Bible, the way out of death to a joyous life in Heaven would be missed by almost all people. In addition, life and living conditions on earth would be worse. Now, at least, there will be some millions or billions in Heaven.


Utterly false. Every religion that I am aware of deals with "what happens after death" and they all disagree.

Now let me provide a little conundrum for you. Take away all the other contradictions and hypocrisy surrounding all religion and ask yourself this:

Based on the ideation that all theistic religions claim two things:

1. There is an all powerful god that has made or set in motion the entirety of our universe and
2. This god wishes to be worshipped.

The question is, if the above were true, how many religions would exist?

Well, I don't agree with you.

In your final question, all you need do is look and see how many religions DO exist, to tell how many religions would exist. Any Being that has the ability to make the entirety of our universe, is a Being that we don't have a clue as to His/Its thinking and rational except that He/It tells us. Yet, He/It has complete understanding of ours.

This God wishes to be worshiped for our own good. Consider that such things as honor and dignity have been made by Him, right along with everything else. The only way to maintain our own honor and dignity is to use it to honor and dignify Him, since He OWNS everything. It is this lack of honoring and dignifying the Great Creator that is one of the greatest methods that we are using to cause our own destruction.

Smiley

I'm gonna provide you a link so you understand why your answer is a strawman. But first, I would ask that you re-read the question, and answer it as stated, rather than putting on the Christian lens and ignoring the question.

so, again. If there is a god, it is all powerful, and it wishes to be worshipped, how many religions could their possibly be?

The link following is something I constantly refer to myself. Debate and logic have a specific structure for a reason. Logical fallacies when committed by accident or habit obscure the truth. When committed deliberately, one has to wonder what the true motives of the person committing them are.
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html


The simple answer to your question is 1 religion, to as many religions as there are people that exist.

We have just barely begun to understand how the earth works, to say nothing of the rest of the universe. So, how could we even begin to understand what the thinking or logic of an all powerful God might be, especially regarding how He wants to be worshiped? Note that I capitalized the word "God" and pronouns referring to Him. "All powerful" makes such capitalization an at least minimal honor I could do to One so great.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
September 25, 2015, 07:01:25 AM
Quote from: BADecker
If you dropped formal religion, including Christianity, out of life, what would you get? You would get the same things that you get with the formal religions, except God and guidance. Essentially, there would be a whole lot more corruption, a whole lot more warring, a whole lot more "badness" among people.

I strongly disagree. In those nations where religion holds less sway, we see LESS of the above. See Sweden for a good example. Of course the argument could be made that socialism is itself a formal religion, but you are specifically referring to Christianity and to a lesser extent, other theistic religions.
Quote

People who do bad things will use whatever methods they can to do bad things. They will take as much good as they can, and twist it to their own ways, to make it bad. Without the good of the formal religions, things would be a lot worse. If you think that people couldn't or wouldn't design bad things without formal religion, you are extremely naive.

On the contrary, in a rational world bad people do bad things and good people do good things. (I'll get into "good" and "evil" in a moment). With the backing of religion, good people do bad things, and often with a clear conscience. For a number of good examples from within your book, just read the book of Exodus. Granted, most of it is false, like zero evidence that the Hebrews were ever slaves in egypt for instance, but it openly condones putting entire populations to the sword in the name of "The LORD of HOSTS" if you like the KJV, or more correctly translated The God of Armies or Jehovah (medieval latin) or Yahwey as most modern scholars believe the name to be properly pronounced. One of the things commanded by your god was the dashing of babies against the rocks. And do not give me the "sins of the father" argument, because there is NO moral or ethical way to justify it. Which is pretty bad for your religion, because it's the crux of your beliefs. (see what I did there? Crux is short for Crucifix).
Quote

Religion offers guidance towards goodness. Even a formally semi-violent religion like Islam offers guidance towards goodness in this life. Think of how bad it would be without religion.

This is a tamer version of what Christians often say to atheists. It scares the shit out of me. Because what you're really saying is that without some religion going on, then people IN GENERAL are going to run rampant, murdering, raping, stealing, and generally being assholes. This tells us a LOT about the religious mindset. Luckily, we have all of history to prove it untrue. If humans were inherently evil, using the term the way religious people do, then no such books would be written, and given that none of the thousands of gods does a fucking thing, even if they were no one would care. Our species would not have survived. For the most part, we do not need to be told that it's wrong to attack and kill our fellow men and women. Crime is actually a pretty low percentage of human activity, once you take away statutory crime. (that's a discussion for another time). And as one would expect without the religious mindset, the worst crimes are the least common. A guy might not think twice about grabbing a loaf of bread, but will think a lot harder about assault or murder, even if he's deviant.

The truth, clearly observable if you have ANY grasp of reality and the ability to think, is that people are generally pretty neutral. We're a social species, so we work out ways to interact with each other. We also are pack animals, so we tend to make codes, such as religion, that make the "outsider" somehow less than human. That is just as egregious as theism, but it's at least something we can recognize and mitigate IN THE ABSENCE of religion. Within the framework of religion, the "other" will always be subhuman. It is not an accident that secularization of the world led to the largest population of humans ever. Civilized men rarely kill because of "god" anymore, with a few glaring exceptions. Unfortunately, those glaring exceptions are good at getting themselves into positions of power (which is a big part of why I'm an anarchist as well as an atheist).
Quote
More important, even if there were no badness along with no formal religion, that is, even if people were not mean and bad, period, they would still get old and die. Old age and death seem to be built into the "genetics" of nature. Why do I mention this? Because old age isn't something that is nice and good. It is wicked and evil. It leads to death, and eternal death which includes agony of soul forever.

Religion stands firmly in the way of mitigating death by providing the obvious fairy tale you present below. There is just about zero evidence that anything "survives" death except energy, which is never destroyed. There is a whole lot of evidence that we could extend life indefinitely via technologies that Christians oppose on "principle" because it's "playing god". Well, I for one ain't playing. At base, god means creator, and we are the most creative species we are aware of. In fact, even when I was religious, that bothered me. If we're made in god's image, as Christians and Jews presuppose, then why do Christians stand so heavily AGAINST being creative? (again, this is something of a deviation from the discussion, but something you ought to think about)

The pursuit of immortality predates Christianity by a rather large number of millenia. The ability to pursue it by technical means is just now falling into place, but a lot of that research has been very vocally opposed by Christians. For examples of the works, I suggest you google the methuselah mouse prize, SENS, and Dr. Aubrey DeGrey. It's beyond the scope of this discussion. I've been heavily involved in it for several decades now.
Quote
At least the Christian religion shows us the way out of death which would not be known without the formal Christian religion. Without the Bible it would almost be absolutely, formally unknown.

The point? Without the Bible, the way out of death to a joyous life in Heaven would be missed by almost all people. In addition, life and living conditions on earth would be worse. Now, at least, there will be some millions or billions in Heaven.


Utterly false. Every religion that I am aware of deals with "what happens after death" and they all disagree.

Now let me provide a little conundrum for you. Take away all the other contradictions and hypocrisy surrounding all religion and ask yourself this:

Based on the ideation that all theistic religions claim two things:

1. There is an all powerful god that has made or set in motion the entirety of our universe and
2. This god wishes to be worshipped.

The question is, if the above were true, how many religions would exist?

Well, I don't agree with you.

In your final question, all you need do is look and see how many religions DO exist, to tell how many religions would exist. Any Being that has the ability to make the entirety of our universe, is a Being that we don't have a clue as to His/Its thinking and rational except that He/It tells us. Yet, He/It has complete understanding of ours.

This God wishes to be worshiped for our own good. Consider that such things as honor and dignity have been made by Him, right along with everything else. The only way to maintain our own honor and dignity is to use it to honor and dignify Him, since He OWNS everything. It is this lack of honoring and dignifying the Great Creator that is one of the greatest methods that we are using to cause our own destruction.

Smiley

I'm gonna provide you a link so you understand why your answer is a strawman. But first, I would ask that you re-read the question, and answer it as stated, rather than putting on the Christian lens and ignoring the question.

so, again. If there is a god, it is all powerful, and it wishes to be worshipped, how many religions could their possibly be?

The link following is something I constantly refer to myself. Debate and logic have a specific structure for a reason. Logical fallacies when committed by accident or habit obscure the truth. When committed deliberately, one has to wonder what the true motives of the person committing them are.
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
September 25, 2015, 06:48:41 AM
Quote from: BADecker
If you dropped formal religion, including Christianity, out of life, what would you get? You would get the same things that you get with the formal religions, except God and guidance. Essentially, there would be a whole lot more corruption, a whole lot more warring, a whole lot more "badness" among people.

I strongly disagree. In those nations where religion holds less sway, we see LESS of the above. See Sweden for a good example. Of course the argument could be made that socialism is itself a formal religion, but you are specifically referring to Christianity and to a lesser extent, other theistic religions.
Quote

People who do bad things will use whatever methods they can to do bad things. They will take as much good as they can, and twist it to their own ways, to make it bad. Without the good of the formal religions, things would be a lot worse. If you think that people couldn't or wouldn't design bad things without formal religion, you are extremely naive.

On the contrary, in a rational world bad people do bad things and good people do good things. (I'll get into "good" and "evil" in a moment). With the backing of religion, good people do bad things, and often with a clear conscience. For a number of good examples from within your book, just read the book of Exodus. Granted, most of it is false, like zero evidence that the Hebrews were ever slaves in egypt for instance, but it openly condones putting entire populations to the sword in the name of "The LORD of HOSTS" if you like the KJV, or more correctly translated The God of Armies or Jehovah (medieval latin) or Yahwey as most modern scholars believe the name to be properly pronounced. One of the things commanded by your god was the dashing of babies against the rocks. And do not give me the "sins of the father" argument, because there is NO moral or ethical way to justify it. Which is pretty bad for your religion, because it's the crux of your beliefs. (see what I did there? Crux is short for Crucifix).
Quote

Religion offers guidance towards goodness. Even a formally semi-violent religion like Islam offers guidance towards goodness in this life. Think of how bad it would be without religion.

This is a tamer version of what Christians often say to atheists. It scares the shit out of me. Because what you're really saying is that without some religion going on, then people IN GENERAL are going to run rampant, murdering, raping, stealing, and generally being assholes. This tells us a LOT about the religious mindset. Luckily, we have all of history to prove it untrue. If humans were inherently evil, using the term the way religious people do, then no such books would be written, and given that none of the thousands of gods does a fucking thing, even if they were no one would care. Our species would not have survived. For the most part, we do not need to be told that it's wrong to attack and kill our fellow men and women. Crime is actually a pretty low percentage of human activity, once you take away statutory crime. (that's a discussion for another time). And as one would expect without the religious mindset, the worst crimes are the least common. A guy might not think twice about grabbing a loaf of bread, but will think a lot harder about assault or murder, even if he's deviant.

The truth, clearly observable if you have ANY grasp of reality and the ability to think, is that people are generally pretty neutral. We're a social species, so we work out ways to interact with each other. We also are pack animals, so we tend to make codes, such as religion, that make the "outsider" somehow less than human. That is just as egregious as theism, but it's at least something we can recognize and mitigate IN THE ABSENCE of religion. Within the framework of religion, the "other" will always be subhuman. It is not an accident that secularization of the world led to the largest population of humans ever. Civilized men rarely kill because of "god" anymore, with a few glaring exceptions. Unfortunately, those glaring exceptions are good at getting themselves into positions of power (which is a big part of why I'm an anarchist as well as an atheist).
Quote
More important, even if there were no badness along with no formal religion, that is, even if people were not mean and bad, period, they would still get old and die. Old age and death seem to be built into the "genetics" of nature. Why do I mention this? Because old age isn't something that is nice and good. It is wicked and evil. It leads to death, and eternal death which includes agony of soul forever.

Religion stands firmly in the way of mitigating death by providing the obvious fairy tale you present below. There is just about zero evidence that anything "survives" death except energy, which is never destroyed. There is a whole lot of evidence that we could extend life indefinitely via technologies that Christians oppose on "principle" because it's "playing god". Well, I for one ain't playing. At base, god means creator, and we are the most creative species we are aware of. In fact, even when I was religious, that bothered me. If we're made in god's image, as Christians and Jews presuppose, then why do Christians stand so heavily AGAINST being creative? (again, this is something of a deviation from the discussion, but something you ought to think about)

The pursuit of immortality predates Christianity by a rather large number of millenia. The ability to pursue it by technical means is just now falling into place, but a lot of that research has been very vocally opposed by Christians. For examples of the works, I suggest you google the methuselah mouse prize, SENS, and Dr. Aubrey DeGrey. It's beyond the scope of this discussion. I've been heavily involved in it for several decades now.
Quote
At least the Christian religion shows us the way out of death which would not be known without the formal Christian religion. Without the Bible it would almost be absolutely, formally unknown.

The point? Without the Bible, the way out of death to a joyous life in Heaven would be missed by almost all people. In addition, life and living conditions on earth would be worse. Now, at least, there will be some millions or billions in Heaven.


Utterly false. Every religion that I am aware of deals with "what happens after death" and they all disagree.

Now let me provide a little conundrum for you. Take away all the other contradictions and hypocrisy surrounding all religion and ask yourself this:

Based on the ideation that all theistic religions claim two things:

1. There is an all powerful god that has made or set in motion the entirety of our universe and
2. This god wishes to be worshipped.

The question is, if the above were true, how many religions would exist?

Well, I don't agree with you.

In your final question, all you need do is look and see how many religions DO exist, to tell how many religions would exist. Any Being that has the ability to make the entirety of our universe, is a Being that we don't have a clue as to His/Its thinking and rational except that He/It tells us. Yet, He/It has complete understanding of ours.

This God wishes to be worshiped for our own good. Consider that such things as honor and dignity have been made by Him, right along with everything else. The only way to maintain our own honor and dignity is to use it to honor and dignify Him, since He OWNS everything. It is this lack of honoring and dignifying the Great Creator that is one of the greatest methods that we are using to cause our own destruction.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Call me Alice. just Alice.
September 25, 2015, 06:30:30 AM
people are afraid, uneducated and ignorant.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
September 25, 2015, 06:29:33 AM
Quote from: BADecker
If you dropped formal religion, including Christianity, out of life, what would you get? You would get the same things that you get with the formal religions, except God and guidance. Essentially, there would be a whole lot more corruption, a whole lot more warring, a whole lot more "badness" among people.

I strongly disagree. In those nations where religion holds less sway, we see LESS of the above. See Sweden for a good example. Of course the argument could be made that socialism is itself a formal religion, but you are specifically referring to Christianity and to a lesser extent, other theistic religions.
Quote

People who do bad things will use whatever methods they can to do bad things. They will take as much good as they can, and twist it to their own ways, to make it bad. Without the good of the formal religions, things would be a lot worse. If you think that people couldn't or wouldn't design bad things without formal religion, you are extremely naive.

On the contrary, in a rational world bad people do bad things and good people do good things. (I'll get into "good" and "evil" in a moment). With the backing of religion, good people do bad things, and often with a clear conscience. For a number of good examples from within your book, just read the book of Exodus. Granted, most of it is false, like zero evidence that the Hebrews were ever slaves in egypt for instance, but it openly condones putting entire populations to the sword in the name of "The LORD of HOSTS" if you like the KJV, or more correctly translated The God of Armies or Jehovah (medieval latin) or Yahwey as most modern scholars believe the name to be properly pronounced. One of the things commanded by your god was the dashing of babies against the rocks. And do not give me the "sins of the father" argument, because there is NO moral or ethical way to justify it. Which is pretty bad for your religion, because it's the crux of your beliefs. (see what I did there? Crux is short for Crucifix).
Quote

Religion offers guidance towards goodness. Even a formally semi-violent religion like Islam offers guidance towards goodness in this life. Think of how bad it would be without religion.

This is a tamer version of what Christians often say to atheists. It scares the shit out of me. Because what you're really saying is that without some religion going on, then people IN GENERAL are going to run rampant, murdering, raping, stealing, and generally being assholes. This tells us a LOT about the religious mindset. Luckily, we have all of history to prove it untrue. If humans were inherently evil, using the term the way religious people do, then no such books would be written, and given that none of the thousands of gods does a fucking thing, even if they were no one would care. Our species would not have survived. For the most part, we do not need to be told that it's wrong to attack and kill our fellow men and women. Crime is actually a pretty low percentage of human activity, once you take away statutory crime. (that's a discussion for another time). And as one would expect without the religious mindset, the worst crimes are the least common. A guy might not think twice about grabbing a loaf of bread, but will think a lot harder about assault or murder, even if he's deviant.

The truth, clearly observable if you have ANY grasp of reality and the ability to think, is that people are generally pretty neutral. We're a social species, so we work out ways to interact with each other. We also are pack animals, so we tend to make codes, such as religion, that make the "outsider" somehow less than human. That is just as egregious as theism, but it's at least something we can recognize and mitigate IN THE ABSENCE of religion. Within the framework of religion, the "other" will always be subhuman. It is not an accident that secularization of the world led to the largest population of humans ever. Civilized men rarely kill because of "god" anymore, with a few glaring exceptions. Unfortunately, those glaring exceptions are good at getting themselves into positions of power (which is a big part of why I'm an anarchist as well as an atheist).
Quote
More important, even if there were no badness along with no formal religion, that is, even if people were not mean and bad, period, they would still get old and die. Old age and death seem to be built into the "genetics" of nature. Why do I mention this? Because old age isn't something that is nice and good. It is wicked and evil. It leads to death, and eternal death which includes agony of soul forever.

Religion stands firmly in the way of mitigating death by providing the obvious fairy tale you present below. There is just about zero evidence that anything "survives" death except energy, which is never destroyed. There is a whole lot of evidence that we could extend life indefinitely via technologies that Christians oppose on "principle" because it's "playing god". Well, I for one ain't playing. At base, god means creator, and we are the most creative species we are aware of. In fact, even when I was religious, that bothered me. If we're made in god's image, as Christians and Jews presuppose, then why do Christians stand so heavily AGAINST being creative? (again, this is something of a deviation from the discussion, but something you ought to think about)

The pursuit of immortality predates Christianity by a rather large number of millenia. The ability to pursue it by technical means is just now falling into place, but a lot of that research has been very vocally opposed by Christians. For examples of the works, I suggest you google the methuselah mouse prize, SENS, and Dr. Aubrey DeGrey. It's beyond the scope of this discussion. I've been heavily involved in it for several decades now.
Quote
At least the Christian religion shows us the way out of death which would not be known without the formal Christian religion. Without the Bible it would almost be absolutely, formally unknown.

The point? Without the Bible, the way out of death to a joyous life in Heaven would be missed by almost all people. In addition, life and living conditions on earth would be worse. Now, at least, there will be some millions or billions in Heaven.


Utterly false. Every religion that I am aware of deals with "what happens after death" and they all disagree.

Now let me provide a little conundrum for you. Take away all the other contradictions and hypocrisy surrounding all religion and ask yourself this:

Based on the ideation that all theistic religions claim two things:

1. There is an all powerful god that has made or set in motion the entirety of our universe and
2. This god wishes to be worshipped.

The question is, if the above were true, how many religions would exist?

EDIT: I forgot to go into the definition of good and evil. Both are to a large extent religious concepts, but they are derived from very real concepts. So, to a social animal, what is good, and what is evil?

Good would be that which optimizes survival of the species. To a socially aware species, such as ours, this could also extend to what is good for the individual actor WITH REFERENCE to the overall paradigm. If it's optimal for both the individual AND the survival of the species, it could be considered "good". If it is optimal for the individual and inimical to the survival of the species (murder comes to mind) then it would not be. If it is optimal for the individual and does not directly affect the species ("vices" come to mind) then it would be neither.

Evil, in my way of thinking, is that which is inimical to survival of the species WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF HUMAN ACTION (or another hypothetical self aware species). That which is inimical to a species survival outside of that context is not evil, simply dangerous. Evil requires a conscious actor.

Using the above basal axioms, most religions are a mix of good and evil, but because of the unquestionable nature of "faith", the evil triumphs over the good whenever "god" has been assigned some role. Whatever you may think of the sciences, one thing about them makes them superiour to all relgious thought: There is NO forbidden question. Scientific thought operates from the axiom that all things are knowable. Not all things are known, in fact the more we learn the more we find that there is more to learn. But simply that it can be known, if the right questions are asked. In my paradigm (shared by a great many free thinking people), there is no reason to not question ANY axiom. I take it farther than most, in that by the above definitions, I consider refusal to consider a question to be evil.

As a personal "for instance", I find it most egregious that we are not already on other worlds. There is NO technical reason for this, but a lot of emotion, and yes, religious opposition.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
September 24, 2015, 07:34:27 AM
Religion is not a race.
my bad ,i didnt had  a better word  for that..
religions solely made for POWER and WOMEN ..and currently for money

LOL. Now I get ya.

"First you get the money,

Then you get the power,

Then you get the women"

-Tony Montana
something like that..i mean the religions are made to get the never ending power and the most beautiful women..
but i guess the plans change as the centuries change ,,,haha

The Bible based Christian religion already has the power... in God. It is out to give the power to as many others as will come over to Bible based Christianity.

Smiley

One fairy tale is very like another. If you actually READ your holy book, no interpretations, it's at least as horrific as the Q'uran. In my judgment, having read both, the Q'uran is a bit more internally consistent, but no less horrible. To make either religion palatable to civilized people requires a great deal of cognitive dissonance.

If you dropped formal religion, including Christianity, out of life, what would you get? You would get the same things that you get with the formal religions, except God and guidance. Essentially, there would be a whole lot more corruption, a whole lot more warring, a whole lot more "badness" among people.

People who do bad things will use whatever methods they can to do bad things. They will take as much good as they can, and twist it to their own ways, to make it bad. Without the good of the formal religions, things would be a lot worse. If you think that people couldn't or wouldn't design bad things without formal religion, you are extremely naive.

Religion offers guidance towards goodness. Even a formally semi-violent religion like Islam offers guidance towards goodness in this life. Think of how bad it would be without religion.

More important, even if there were no badness along with no formal religion, that is, even if people were not mean and bad, period, they would still get old and die. Old age and death seem to be built into the "genetics" of nature. Why do I mention this? Because old age isn't something that is nice and good. It is wicked and evil. It leads to death, and eternal death which includes agony of soul forever.

At least the Christian religion shows us the way out of death which would not be known without the formal Christian religion. Without the Bible it would almost be absolutely, formally unknown.

The point? Without the Bible, the way out of death to a joyous life in Heaven would be missed by almost all people. In addition, life and living conditions on earth would be worse. Now, at least, there will be some millions or billions in Heaven.

Smiley
what the hell ? there is no such things like evil or good ? what if a meteor hits earth and half of the population dies ?is that EVIL ? NO
also we dont know nothing about the evolution and things around us ,but it dosent means we make a false story just to rule the brainwashed population ?
yes the holy books tried to make people more civilized ,than other animals around.  NO one will be in heaven or hell/

Of course you don't sit around and make a false story just to rule some brainwashed population. But you don't think, either. Here's what I mean.

Generally speaking, the things that people like are the things that they call good. The things that they don't like are the things that they call bad (evil). When people have joy, they feel that they are having good. Generally, when they have things like depression, melancholy, misery, sadness, sorrow, pain, etc., they call it evil.

Perhaps you are different. Perhaps you are the other way around. Perhaps throughout all the good and evil that fills life, you can simply remind yourself that this stuff is just happenstance, and simply go on your way without any feelings of "I like it" or "I don't like it." But most people can't do this. However, the fact that you appear to be protesting against the ideas of good and evil, suggests that you don't like such ideas, and that they are, therefore, evil for you.

So, by your simple protest against the things that I am saying, you are suggesting evil in some ways.

On the other hand, perhaps your protest gives you some form of joy. That joy might exist in the simple fact that you are able to protest. Or it might exist in the fact that you are able to use a computer and post in a forum.

Again, generally people consider things that bring them joy, happiness, well being, pleasure, etc., to be good, while things that bring them depression, melancholy, misery, sadness, sorrow, pain, etc., they call it evil. Good and evil don't exist? Most people think that they do, and you probably think so as well.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 553
Merit: 500
September 24, 2015, 01:34:27 AM
Religion is not a race.
my bad ,i didnt had  a better word  for that..
religions solely made for POWER and WOMEN ..and currently for money

LOL. Now I get ya.

"First you get the money,

Then you get the power,

Then you get the women"

-Tony Montana
something like that..i mean the religions are made to get the never ending power and the most beautiful women..
but i guess the plans change as the centuries change ,,,haha

The Bible based Christian religion already has the power... in God. It is out to give the power to as many others as will come over to Bible based Christianity.

Smiley

One fairy tale is very like another. If you actually READ your holy book, no interpretations, it's at least as horrific as the Q'uran. In my judgment, having read both, the Q'uran is a bit more internally consistent, but no less horrible. To make either religion palatable to civilized people requires a great deal of cognitive dissonance.

If you dropped formal religion, including Christianity, out of life, what would you get? You would get the same things that you get with the formal religions, except God and guidance. Essentially, there would be a whole lot more corruption, a whole lot more warring, a whole lot more "badness" among people.

People who do bad things will use whatever methods they can to do bad things. They will take as much good as they can, and twist it to their own ways, to make it bad. Without the good of the formal religions, things would be a lot worse. If you think that people couldn't or wouldn't design bad things without formal religion, you are extremely naive.

Religion offers guidance towards goodness. Even a formally semi-violent religion like Islam offers guidance towards goodness in this life. Think of how bad it would be without religion.

More important, even if there were no badness along with no formal religion, that is, even if people were not mean and bad, period, they would still get old and die. Old age and death seem to be built into the "genetics" of nature. Why do I mention this? Because old age isn't something that is nice and good. It is wicked and evil. It leads to death, and eternal death which includes agony of soul forever.

At least the Christian religion shows us the way out of death which would not be known without the formal Christian religion. Without the Bible it would almost be absolutely, formally unknown.

The point? Without the Bible, the way out of death to a joyous life in Heaven would be missed by almost all people. In addition, life and living conditions on earth would be worse. Now, at least, there will be some millions or billions in Heaven.

Smiley
what the hell ? there is no such things like evil or good ? what if a meteor hits earth and half of the population dies ?is that EVIL ? NO
also we dont know nothing about the evolution and things around us ,but it dosent means we make a false story just to rule the brainwashed population ?
yes the holy books tried to make people more civilized ,than other animals around.  NO one will be in heaven or hell/
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
September 23, 2015, 11:43:26 AM
Religion is not a race.
my bad ,i didnt had  a better word  for that..
religions solely made for POWER and WOMEN ..and currently for money

LOL. Now I get ya.

"First you get the money,

Then you get the power,

Then you get the women"

-Tony Montana
something like that..i mean the religions are made to get the never ending power and the most beautiful women..
but i guess the plans change as the centuries change ,,,haha

The Bible based Christian religion already has the power... in God. It is out to give the power to as many others as will come over to Bible based Christianity.

Smiley

One fairy tale is very like another. If you actually READ your holy book, no interpretations, it's at least as horrific as the Q'uran. In my judgment, having read both, the Q'uran is a bit more internally consistent, but no less horrible. To make either religion palatable to civilized people requires a great deal of cognitive dissonance.

If you dropped formal religion, including Christianity, out of life, what would you get? You would get the same things that you get with the formal religions, except God and guidance. Essentially, there would be a whole lot more corruption, a whole lot more warring, a whole lot more "badness" among people.

People who do bad things will use whatever methods they can to do bad things. They will take as much good as they can, and twist it to their own ways, to make it bad. Without the good of the formal religions, things would be a lot worse. If you think that people couldn't or wouldn't design bad things without formal religion, you are extremely naive.

Religion offers guidance towards goodness. Even a formally semi-violent religion like Islam offers guidance towards goodness in this life. Think of how bad it would be without religion.

More important, even if there were no badness along with no formal religion, that is, even if people were not mean and bad, period, they would still get old and die. Old age and death seem to be built into the "genetics" of nature. Why do I mention this? Because old age isn't something that is nice and good. It is wicked and evil. It leads to death, and eternal death which includes agony of soul forever.

At least the Christian religion shows us the way out of death which would not be known without the formal Christian religion. Without the Bible it would almost be absolutely, formally unknown.

The point? Without the Bible, the way out of death to a joyous life in Heaven would be missed by almost all people. In addition, life and living conditions on earth would be worse. Now, at least, there will be some millions or billions in Heaven.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
September 23, 2015, 10:54:31 AM
Religion is not a race.
my bad ,i didnt had  a better word  for that..
religions solely made for POWER and WOMEN ..and currently for money

LOL. Now I get ya.

"First you get the money,

Then you get the power,

Then you get the women"

-Tony Montana
something like that..i mean the religions are made to get the never ending power and the most beautiful women..
but i guess the plans change as the centuries change ,,,haha

The Bible based Christian religion already has the power... in God. It is out to give the power to as many others as will come over to Bible based Christianity.

Smiley

One fairy tale is very like another. If you actually READ your holy book, no interpretations, it's at least as horrific as the Q'uran. In my judgment, having read both, the Q'uran is a bit more internally consistent, but no less horrible. To make either religion palatable to civilized people requires a great deal of cognitive dissonance.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
September 23, 2015, 10:13:19 AM
Religion is not a race.
my bad ,i didnt had  a better word  for that..
religions solely made for POWER and WOMEN ..and currently for money

LOL. Now I get ya.

"First you get the money,

Then you get the power,

Then you get the women"

-Tony Montana
something like that..i mean the religions are made to get the never ending power and the most beautiful women..
but i guess the plans change as the centuries change ,,,haha

The Bible based Christian religion already has the power... in God. It is out to give the power to as many others as will come over to Bible based Christianity.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 553
Merit: 500
September 23, 2015, 04:04:54 AM
Religion is not a race.
my bad ,i didnt had  a better word  for that..
religions solely made for POWER and WOMEN ..and currently for money

LOL. Now I get ya.

"First you get the money,

Then you get the power,

Then you get the women"

-Tony Montana
something like that..i mean the religions are made to get the never ending power and the most beautiful women..
but i guess the plans change as the centuries change ,,,haha
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 504
September 19, 2015, 11:27:14 PM
Ill tell you why I hate emm.



You hate Em? He makes such good music though. "Lose yourself in the music"
legendary
Activity: 2926
Merit: 1386
September 19, 2015, 03:32:46 PM
I'm not a huge fan of any religion, but hating them is not one of them.
I can listen and learn from them but I'm not giving my life for them. I know they are meant to be good but most religious people judge so quickly without even thinking about it.
 

The good things in religion (any religion as far as I've been able to ascertain) are shared by all philosophies. Be decent to your neighbors, don't steal, don't murder, things of that nature.

Unfortunately, they add a lot of shit on top of that, and with a god as backing, believers will ignore the contradictions, embrace the things that destroy the good, and generally muck things up. At the root of all organized religions is the will to power.

Having been raised a Christian, I do have a fair amount of hatred for that particular boondoggle. I try not to. I don't hate Christians, but I do distrust them. Because of their religion, and it's customs. Since I am an unbeliever, a great many of them do not see it as immoral to cheat me, where they would never think of such a thing with one of their own.

In spite of that, I still maintain that most religious people (and I count many of many faiths among my friends) are decent people. Usually in spite of their religion, not because of it. It actually frightens me a great deal when I hear religious people claiming that their particular book/prophet/drug trip is all that restrains them from raping and pillaging. If true, then those people are a deficit to the human race REGARDLESS of their faith. Yet they present this as a positive argument. I don't rape and pillage because it's simply wrong.
It's when the phrase "The WORD of GOD" starts coming up that I check to see I've got a firm hand on my wallet.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
September 19, 2015, 12:26:11 PM
Ill tell you why I hate emm.

They treat there women like shit.  The ones I have seen and ran into here in the US.  Tend to step in front of you.  Never say anything.  Rude attitudes.  Seems like they think we own them something.
The fact that they come here to the US and try to change things.  Create there own laws and tell people we are offended by your flag or you religion.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
September 19, 2015, 11:27:23 AM
Religion is not a race.
my bad ,i didnt had  a better word  for that..
religions solely made for POWER and WOMEN ..and currently for money

LOL. Now I get ya.

"First you get the money,

Then you get the power,

Then you get the women"

-Tony Montana
hero member
Activity: 553
Merit: 500
September 19, 2015, 06:24:25 AM
Religion is not a race.
my bad ,i didnt had  a better word  for that..
religions solely made for POWER and WOMEN ..and currently for money
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
September 19, 2015, 05:54:41 AM
At the root of all organized religions is the will to power.
what made you think to exclude WOMEN ? and in this centuary money ' too.

I don't hate Christians, but I do distrust them. Because of their religion.
A bit racist ? maybe you meant to say you dont trust any religios person or theist ?
using the word christian' is a bit sahdy again.

Don't get what your saying on the first part, but no, I meant christians specifically as that has been MY experience. I do think it applies to any religious group, but my experience has been with just one.

And no, I'm not racist. I think all races are equally worthless. Religion is not a race.
hero member
Activity: 553
Merit: 500
September 19, 2015, 05:38:59 AM
At the root of all organized religions is the will to power.
what made you think to exclude WOMEN ? and in this centuary money ' too.

I don't hate Christians, but I do distrust them. Because of their religion.
A bit racist ? maybe you meant to say you dont trust any religios person or theist ?
using the word christian' is a bit sahdy again.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
September 19, 2015, 01:04:28 AM
I'm not a huge fan of any religion, but hating them is not one of them.
I can listen and learn from them but I'm not giving my life for them. I know they are meant to be good but most religious people judge so quickly without even thinking about it.
 

The good things in religion (any religion as far as I've been able to ascertain) are shared by all philosophies. Be decent to your neighbors, don't steal, don't murder, things of that nature.

Unfortunately, they add a lot of shit on top of that, and with a god as backing, believers will ignore the contradictions, embrace the things that destroy the good, and generally muck things up. At the root of all organized religions is the will to power.

Having been raised a Christian, I do have a fair amount of hatred for that particular boondoggle. I try not to. I don't hate Christians, but I do distrust them. Because of their religion, and it's customs. Since I am an unbeliever, a great many of them do not see it as immoral to cheat me, where they would never think of such a thing with one of their own.

In spite of that, I still maintain that most religious people (and I count many of many faiths among my friends) are decent people. Usually in spite of their religion, not because of it. It actually frightens me a great deal when I hear religious people claiming that their particular book/prophet/drug trip is all that restrains them from raping and pillaging. If true, then those people are a deficit to the human race REGARDLESS of their faith. Yet they present this as a positive argument. I don't rape and pillage because it's simply wrong.
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