Topic: Why do people think income tax is ok? - page 21. (Read 17875 times)

Income tax should go as the government doesn't need to know how much you're making, but I understand property tax to maintain roads and organize basic emergency services. If income tax pays for schools, that's another reason for it to go. Public schools have failed everywhere.

Indeed. Imagine you want to buy a house. First you lose around 40% of you earnings on income tax and other nonsense. Then you pay VAT on the house. There is a chance that you have to regularly pay real estate tax. If you want to give the house away there is another tax. If you die your heirs also get to pay inheritance tax.

Well, some don't earn enough to pay much, if any, in income tax so they aren't really bothered by it.  In fact, they are the ones that tend to be on the receiving end of the income redistribution.

If everyone was required to pay their "fair share" and we all had the same flat tax on our income, the idea of an income tax would probably be done away with in favor of a flat sales tax.

I'd love for this to happen and am one of those people who's had enough and want out of the current system. I'd love and hope that Bitcoin or cryptos become the dominating currencies. I'd love for people to elect politicians or people that genuinely care about what's good for the people and aren't in the pockets of corporations, or even for the people to just take charge of their own lives and that of others for the better of humanity; but people and the general public are generally fucking idiots and don't know what's good for then. They don't know or understand how fiat money or banks work and the war machine. They get on with their shitty little lives and do nothing. Yeah, some people might be armchair anarchists and are angry at paying taxes, but what are they going to do about it? Nothing except moan at the government whilst offering no real solutions other than to get rid of them. Bitcoin should be being used by everyone, but it wont. Why? Ask the people on the street and you'll find out. Ignorance, fear and apathy (probably three of the greatest human diseases).

Let's find out. People are making your argument not about decentralised government, but about bitcoin. "It'll never work" they say. But we know it already does (at a "small" scale...)

And think about this: what if you like the idea of of local, people-run government right now? Where can you go to get it? Look, and you'll see that there isn't anywhere. There's alot of people out there that want the opportunity to choose to go all local. But basically every corner of the earth is "owned" by a government, and none of those governments are happy to give these people what they want. And this is democracy? Where the people rule? The US is supposed to be based on the local government "by the people, for the people" model. And look where they are now.

You might say the people voted for what they got. But if you asked people after the fact, they'll tell you they "didn't think it was going to be like this". So, you can say you're against cutting health and education spending, and in favour of stopping all spending on wars and corporate subsidies. But what power have you really got to make that happen? The power to vote for a new face who promises you "no more of the same", only to end up giving you more of the same after their time is up. The excuse is usually some variation of "real life got in the way". These professional politicians do the minimum to help the people they can get away with, then use everything else for themselves and their business interests. And that pattern is showing no signs of ending, and the scale of what the politicians get away with is starting to go beyond disgusting.

Bitcoin is just one way to take power back from the government. Bittorrent is a similar way of taking content distribution back from the corporate media. The internet itself was a way of giving anyone a platform to broadcast to the world. But they're not giving up without a fight, as you may have noticed. Internet freedom is under threat, I don't need to say anything to convince you of that. The crafty stealing from the public's pockets is a serious threat to the public, right in the middle of an economic recession, which the politicians and their banker buddies allowed to happen so they could get, that's right, more power and more money.

So you can carry on paying these protection rackets to let them "look after everyone" if you like, not going to try and stop you. But there's alot of people out there that have had enough, and want out.

It's not impossible, but it's unlikely to ever succeed or become fully efficient.

I believe it is possible for those things to be built/offered without government involvement.

It's just that historical evidence shows that doesn't work worth a damn for many things.

And what happens if you can't afford any of these things? You grow up without an education, are homeless and starving and left without any prospects or future, and eventually you'll die when you have a minor injury that's left untreated.

How do you pay the police? They come investigate a crime then bill you for it?

People can pay the service provider/producer. Same way you pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. It's called trade.

No, I don't know what you mean. People don't have common sense, do they? I don't think you do either if you think we can live in this tax-free utopia where charities and corporations dish out services for free and out of the goodness of their hearts and everything is better because there's no evil governments. You used scare tactics by complaining that the government has failed because you have to wait a few hours in A+E to get seen and some roads are a bit shoddy. Things would be much much worse than pot holes in the roads if we turned this over to somebody else. My solution is to put more money into this; yours is to  stop paying for it and seemingly hand it over to somebody else and hope they sort the mess out whilst they continue giving it to us for free.

And I know people go to jail for not paying taxes, but you're being silly now and completely missing my points. You're also completely mistaken about what I said. I'm not paying any taxes and I'm not in jail. Some of my friends work and they don't pay any taxes and they're not in jail. And if you don't want to pay taxes; you can. Nobody is forcing you to pay income tax at all. You could also illegally avoid them if you want; just don't get caught. And if you don't want to pay any income taxes and are so against them, just move to a different country that offers this option. Tell me, which ones are those again?


Why would they do it on a voluntary basis? And I wouldn't  have a problem with that option; of course it'd be great it happened, but that's not gonna happen, is it? And what's wrong with the government running it as long as they run it 'efficiently'? So you're ok letting it into the outside hands of a corporation, but governments are a big no-no because they don't run it efficiently? Well neither will corporations and then it's out of our control because they can do almost what they like.

And you still avoided most of my other points. Tell me, what system would you put in place then if you were in charge?

And now you've gone for the scare tactics by saying people will die in the streets despite me offering plenty of alternatives that will help people, also, if you honestly don't know what I mean by mathematics and common sense will always win you really are a lost cause.


Yes you are, when you don't pay taxes you go to jail, that's a complete lie:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ianmcowie/100019166/plumber-jailed-for-tax-evasion-as-hmrc-receipts-rise/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-18352528

http://news.sky.com/story/1074638/wesley-snipes-freed-from-jail-after-tax-evasion

http://uk.eonline.com/news/437162/lauryn-hill-begins-prison-sentence-for-tax-evasion

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/45367884-2bd8-11e1-98bc-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2q08KfPYs

http://cpj.org/2013/10/vietnamese-blogger-jailed-on-tax-evasion-charges.php

What you call 'Not paying taxes' governments all call 'tax evasion' and you get arrested and put in jail for it no matter how badly you want to spin this, you're the one who is frankly naive. Also, I actually said corporate sponsorship, I didn't say corporations should run everything, that said, if they do it on a voluntary basis and run it efficiently I have no problem with that unlike you.

You're being incredibly naive if you think that just because this government is a bunch of corrupt fucks and failing on many levels that one cannot be implemented that doesn't serve its people better. All we need to do is put a system or government in place that will serve its people and not those of private interests. And yes, in some areas roads might be bad and hospital services lacking, but stop spending money on wars and bailing out bankers and put this money into things that need it. What happens when these charities you want start fucking stuff up and become corrupt or build shoddy roads or schools? Who will hold them accountable? What do you suggest as an alternative to the healthcare system? Sell it off to corporations so only people who can afford health care get it? Let's see how many charity hospitals there is if we go with your system. There'll be people dying in the streets, not in hospital corridors (and it's not that bad yet is it? Yeah, you might have to wait a few hours to get that cut stitched up, but if its an emergency you'll get treated). Let's put our taxes to good use and put more money into these services and they will improve.

And it's not exactly force, is it? You're not forced to do anything or pay any taxes if you don't want, yet you can still use all the services it provides all paid for by the taxpayer. Don't work and don't pay taxes if you don't want, or if you're smart enough you can work and get away with it. Maybe be a conscientious tax objector or avoider.

And I didn't insinuate you 'wanted corporations to rule over everything', did I say that?. But you suggested this as an option, which would be much much worse. You don't trust the governments, but you'd trust a corporation who's only goal is to shit on people and turn profit?

And can you explain and elaborate more on what you mean by common sense and basic mathematics will always win?

Love how you use 'force' in quotations, what you don't consider taxation force? What makes you think government is so much more reliable? Oh wait! They've fucked everything up through massive overspending and poor organisation, don't get me started about how some of our roads here in the UK are still being 'worked on' despite the work being going on for several years and then there's the fact you have these huge hospitals which keep people waiting for hours while not even bothering to do basic triage to find out which patients need seeing to first because there aren't enough staff to care for them.

I also love the way you tried to insinuate I wanted corporations to rule over everything, did I say that? No, but your attitude definitely is that of a corporation because you're saying essentially if I sit on somebody's land or drink somebody else's water from a lake therefore I must pay for it OR ELSE.

Keep on preaching, basic mathematics and common sense will always win out in the end.

If you don't 'force' people to pay for services then most people probably wont as there's plenty of cheapskates. Everybody should chip in for services everybody uses. There is not enough willing people to make mass charities work, and we couldn't rely on them to be rolled out for everyday services. I'd rather put my faith in fair taxes as opposed to this system. Are you really suggesting you'd want corporations to be in charge as opposed to Governments? At least the money from goverment owned companies goes back to the people (or should do in theory).

And would you trust a brain surgeon who got his education or qualifications from an internet based establishment? Whilst I agree you don't need school or qualifications to be intelligent or successful and can learn most of what you need yourself or from the internet, there are some arenas where 'proper' schooling/education is required.

Either local government where people voluntarily give their money ( Like state government or Local Council depending on which country you're in ) the trick is not forcing it on anyone and then also people can just get together and hire a crew to build it or you could do corporate sponsorship, since advertising is already used a lot on roads why not use that revenue to support the building of them? There are of course more direct methods like toll roads and frankly if you're going to bitch about that sort of thing then you're a cheap skate because I'd rather pay for it on a voluntary basis than be forced to pay for it or go to jail.

The trick is not forcing anyone to pay for it, you do that and you'll have a lot less resentment about building infrastructure and free healthcare, you might even have people going out of their way to support it like with a charity, oh yeah as long as it's run properly I have nothing against charities either, just so many of them are corrupt now and take a large cut of what's donated to them. It's only natural that when you threaten people with violence if they resist that people start hating the idea of giving money to the people threatening them.

Take Sean's Outpost as a living example of what can be done in a voluntary society as well people are quite happy to give that charity Bitcoin and yet according to your logic, if there were no taxes nobody would build any roads, yet why is somebody who isn't automatically being paid for it just taking Bitcoins and going around helping out homeless people?

Oh and do I have to point out the internet as a world wide source of learning? These days even with a pretty cheap internet connection that doesn't work very well you can do a damn lot of searching if you want to try learning something.

What system do you propose for paying for schools, roads, hospitals, emergency services etc?

Oh well, I'm talking about getting rid of all taxes

I meant getting rid of income taxes as the user I quoted above suggested.

.... That doesn't make any sense? Tax-inflated items? If you didn't have taxes you wouldn't pay any extra tax on that sort of thing you'd just pay for the items by themselves.

How would we build them? If they got rid of income tax we'd just end up paying the difference on ridiculously expensive tax-inflated items.