Why do you believe God exists? - page 11.

sirazimuth

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born once atheist

Quote from: BADecker on December 01, 2018, 09:51:48 AM

God made everything to work the way it does.

He made metals so that they could be formed by metallurgy into guns. But He also made the metals and metallurgy for other purposes.

God made the materials in gunpowder. He made them to be used for other purposes than gunpowder. But He made them to be used as gunpowder if that's the way a person wants to use them.

It wasn't God's idea for a person to shoot himself in the foot. But if a person does this, he gets the results of shooting himself in the foot.

God made everything for the worship of Himself, God. It's the way things work.

Shoot yourself in the head by not worshiping God, if you want. He gives you that freedom. You might even think that you are blaming God for it, when you use your freedom to shoot yourself in the head. But when you are that stupid, he gains glory even from that... because you are dead, but He and many others know that you freely did it to yourself, using the freedom that He gave you.

Cool

Quote from: BADecker on December 01, 2018, 09:59:23 AM

No! The lake of fire is for dissolution. You are beyond purification if you get to the lake of fire.

God won't put up with your rebellion forever. There will come a time when He will say "Enough." That time will come for you if/when you die in your rejection of Him.

What do they do with old, worn-out, junkyard cars? They load them up on a truck, and take them back to the smelters, to melt them down and get the metal out of them to use in new cars and other equipment.

The lake of fire is the place where junk beings are smelted down to get the material out of them to be used for other purposes.

Change, now, while you still have the chance, before you go into the lake of fire where your essence will be torn apart in the excessive heat, so that the pieces which formerly were you, can be used in other places for other things.

Cool

BADecker's favorite method to illustrate his nonsense.
make a bunch of silly assertions without a shred of evidence to back them up.
like how the phuk does he know all this shit?
great examples of the fallacy of proof by assertion.
pious folk seem to do this constantly.

BADecker

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 10:00:14 AM

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 09:54:53 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:27:25 AM

There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer.

The overwhelming majority of human suffering is induced by the evils of our fellow human beings. It comes about as a result of the human freedom to be evil and make poor choices. This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.

The small remnant of suffering independent of man is the result of our ignorance limited science and lack of knowledge. This portion of suffering naturally trends towards zero over time as knowledge and technology advance.

''This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.'' Yes it can, that's such a bullshit argument. I can think of 10 ways to reduce suffering right now, without tampering with freedom. For instance, why even allow diseases in the first place? God could have prevented them all along (that's not tampering with freedom) Also birth defects and so on. The only thing god wouldn't be able to prevent are things like, someone shooting someone because that's his choice, however since he will send you to hell for it, he could just prevent that from happening in the moment. He is tampering with your freedom when he sends you to hell, isn't he? So why not stop that before it even happens?

Please, use some logic.

Never shooting someone to death is never something that keeps a person out of Hell. Shooting a person to death is never something that sends a person to Hell.

There is only one thing that keeps a person out of Hell. Lacking that one thing is the only reason why people go to Hell. What is that one thing? It is believing in Jesus salvation.

Shooting someone, or voluntary sinning in other ways, are all things that wear on Jesus salvation faith. Enough voluntary sinning by a person of faith, may destroy that faith in him. But it is the faith in Jesus salvation, or lack of it, that determines a person's Heaven/Hell final position.

Cool

Astargath

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Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 09:54:53 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:27:25 AM

There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer.

The overwhelming majority of human suffering is induced by the evils of our fellow human beings. It comes about as a result of the human freedom to be evil and make poor choices. This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.

The small remnant of suffering independent of man is the result of our ignorance limited science and lack of knowledge. This portion of suffering naturally trends towards zero over time as knowledge and technology advance.

''This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.'' Yes it can, that's such a bullshit argument. I can think of 10 ways to reduce suffering right now, without tampering with freedom. For instance, why even allow diseases in the first place? God could have prevented them all along (that's not tampering with freedom) Also birth defects and so on. The only thing god wouldn't be able to prevent are things like, someone shooting someone because that's his choice, however since he will send you to hell for it, he could just prevent that from happening in the moment. He is tampering with your freedom when he sends you to hell, isn't he? So why not stop that before it even happens?

Please, use some logic.

BADecker

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 09:40:03 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

If your child goes to hell after you die and you are already in heaven, would you feel sad that he/she is in pain for eternity?

That would depend on the nature and purpose of hell. Is it's ultimate purpose torture or rectification punishment or purification.

A constant theme of the Bible is the conversation of evil to good. In Christianity an example of this is the cross. One of the most evil and horrifying torture devices of antiquity transformed into a symbol of hope that indisputably forever altered the trajectory of history.

For this reason and others I favor the rectification/purification perspective.

In the lakes of fire?

No! The lake of fire is for dissolution. You are beyond purification if you get to the lake of fire.

God won't put up with your rebellion forever. There will come a time when He will say "Enough." That time will come for you if/when you die in your rejection of Him.

What do they do with old, worn-out, junkyard cars? They load them up on a truck, and take them back to the smelters, to melt them down and get the metal out of them to use in new cars and other equipment.

The lake of fire is the place where junk beings are smelted down to get the material out of them to be used for other purposes.

Change, now, while you still have the chance, before you go into the lake of fire where your essence will be torn apart in the excessive heat, so that the pieces which formerly were you, can be used in other places for other things.

Cool

CoinCube

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Activity: 1946

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:27:25 AM

There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer.

The overwhelming majority of human suffering is induced by the evils of our fellow human beings. It comes about as a result of the human freedom to be evil and make poor choices. This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.

The small remnant of suffering independent of man is the result of our ignorance limited science and lack of knowledge. This portion of suffering naturally trends towards zero over time as knowledge and technology advance.

BADecker

legendary

Activity: 4046

Merit: 1389

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 08:34:51 AM

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 08:27:40 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 08:21:39 AM

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

Obey or be killed. The choice shared by all slaves throughout history.

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

You talk from a standpoint of ignorance.

God made everything to work the way it does.

He made metals so that they could be formed by metallurgy into guns. But He also made the metals and metallurgy for other purposes.

God made the materials in gunpowder. He made them to be used for other purposes than gunpowder. But He made them to be used as gunpowder if that's the way a person wants to use them.

It wasn't God's idea for a person to shoot himself in the foot. But if a person does this, he gets the results of shooting himself in the foot.

God made everything for the worship of Himself, God. It's the way things work.

Shoot yourself in the head by not worshiping God, if you want. He gives you that freedom. You might even think that you are blaming God for it, when you use your freedom to shoot yourself in the head. But when you are that stupid, he gains glory even from that... because you are dead, but He and many others know that you freely did it to yourself, using the freedom that He gave you.

Cool

CoinCube

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Activity: 1946

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Quote from: ?? on ??

If your child goes to hell after you die and you are already in heaven, would you feel sad that he/she is in pain for eternity?

That would depend on the nature and purpose of hell. Is it's ultimate purpose torture or rectification punishment or purification.

A constant theme of the Bible is the conversation of evil to good. In Christianity an example of this is the cross. One of the most evil and horrifying torture devices of antiquity transformed into a symbol of hope that indisputably forever altered the trajectory of history.

For this reason and others I favor the rectification/purification perspective.

Astargath

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Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 09:13:52 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 08:34:51 AM

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

Any existence beyond death is unearned. All we have earned is oblivion. An afterlife would be a gift of grace one we certainly do not deserve.

The difference here is that the robber is taking from you by force weakening maybe even killing you.

An afterlife would be the opposite process an unearned gift making you stronger and extending your existence long after it would have run its natural course into oblivion.

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 08:34:51 AM

An all knowing, all powerful all loving god would be able to make everyone believe in him (without forcing them either).

God could certainly could have done that. He could also have made a universe without any freedom where everything just played itself out in a predetermined manner like a rock falling to the ground.

Instead he created an ordered open universe where everything seems possible and freedom is maximized. Great error is permitted and belief is not compelled. That is in my humble opinion a far grander accomplishment.

Scientifically speaking that's not possible. If he created everything, then everything is determined (ask your buddy badecker) so you can't have freedom. Also as I said already, god wouldn't need to take your freedom away to convince you of his existence so this argument is utterly useless. There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer. Not to mention the fact that some people will live and die without ever knowing about god. It's a mess, god from the bible is clearly not real. You only need a bit of logic to realize it, really.

CoinCube

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 08:34:51 AM

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

Any existence beyond death is unearned. All we have earned is oblivion. An afterlife would be a gift of grace one we certainly do not deserve.

The difference here is that the robber is taking from you by force weakening maybe even killing you.

An afterlife would be the opposite process an unearned gift making you stronger and extending your existence long after it would have run its natural course into oblivion.

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 08:34:51 AM

An all knowing, all powerful all loving god would be able to make everyone believe in him (without forcing them either).

God could certainly could have done that. He could also have made a universe without any freedom where everything just played itself out in a predetermined manner like a rock falling to the ground.

Instead he created an ordered open universe where everything seems possible and freedom is maximized. Great error is permitted and belief is not compelled. That is in my humble opinion a far grander accomplishment.

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 08:27:40 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 08:21:39 AM

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

Obey or be killed. The choice shared by all slaves throughout history.

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

By definition in the bible, God is all knowing and all loving, therefore he would want all humans to believe and follow him. Do all humans follow and believe in him? No, therefore, god doesn't exist. Because an all knowing, all powerful all loving god would be able to make everyone believe in him (without forcing them either).

Let's say he couldn't, then why create humans at all? Why create animals? They are all going to die and lots of them will be tortured forever or die, what's the point of it? Just don't create them if you are all loving, you are essentially creating pain for nothing.

CoinCube

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 08:21:39 AM

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

Obey or be killed. The choice shared by all slaves throughout history.

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 08:08:22 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Under all circumstances, I am a free man. Always was and always will be.

Yes you are a free man. You live in a deterministic universe yet you are free. You fail to see the miracle in that which is your perogrative.

If you were denied the ability to reject God whatever the circumstances you would not ultimately be free.

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 04:44:50 AM

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

Do you feel like a slave? Do you feel you have no choice?

Or do you feel you were given a choice evaluated the data and made a decision?

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

CoinCube

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Under all circumstances, I am a free man. Always was and always will be.

Yes you are a free man. You live in a deterministic universe yet you are free. You fail to see the miracle in that which is your perogrative.

If you were denied the ability to reject God whatever the circumstances you would not ultimately be free.

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 04:44:50 AM

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

Do you feel like a slave? Do you feel you have no choice?

Or do you feel you were given a choice evaluated the data and made a decision?

Astargath

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Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 12:52:34 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

There are billions of videos on youtube. Not one is from God himself.

Say God came to you personally via YouTube or whatever format you found convincing gave you personal commands after informing you that you as the creator of the universe his will is paramount.

In that circumstance would you be a free man or a slave?

You would be a slave compelled by a power greater then you. By not compelling our belief God grants us freedom. We are free to accept God or reject him.

When we genuinely look for God he is easily found in the miracles of daily life all around us. Similarly when we truly reject God he becomes all but invisible to us and we are left alone to swim in a sea of nihilism.

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

CoinCube

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Quote from: ?? on ??

There are billions of videos on youtube. Not one is from God himself.

Say God came to you personally via YouTube or whatever format you found convincing gave you personal commands after informing you that you as the creator of the universe his will is paramount.

In that circumstance would you be a free man or a slave?

You would be a slave compelled by a power greater then you. By not compelling our belief God grants us freedom. We are free to accept God or reject him.

When we genuinely look for God he is easily found in the miracles of daily life all around us. Similarly when we truly reject God he becomes all but invisible to us and we are left alone to swim in a sea of nihilism.

ATMD

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Wow, that is a big conjecture right there.

First of all, if that were the case, how would you distinguish God from something that does not exist? So it is safe to put God in the same bucket as things that do not exist.

Snow White might exist just as well as any of the Gods people wrote about over the years.

Do you believe Snow White exists? How about Santa Claus?

We have no evidence that God exists, that is all we can say.

Fantasising about things that might exist does not get us any closer to the truth.

You are right, we have no scientific evidence that God exists, only anecdotal evidences.

Regarding the conjecture, I am not sure it is a big ask to be honest. If even God has to follow the laws of physics (must only be at one place at one time, must be subjected to the laws of gravity, must be able to be detected by our techno scientific instruments etc), then God ceases to be God. He would not be any different to you or me.

I would not compare God to Snow White or Santa Claus because the experience of God is a global phenomenon from people from all cultures around the world throughout the history of mankind.

ATMD

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Let's see the footage of God then. Where is it? There are billions of videos on youtube, not one is from God.

Anyone who reads this thread and can talk to God, please ask God to post here.

Why does God need salesmen? He does not care to show up for work? I would fire his ass in a New York minute.

Sorry I edited my answer to add a bit more info. I wanted to say that if God shows up on Youtube, it would mean that the nature of God is no longer a private relationship, but rather a public one.

ATMD

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Quote from: ?? on ??

The personal spiritual experiences are real. Those are internal to a person's brain. How do we know? We see their brain activity on the brain scans.

Unfortunately, the object of those experiences is not real UNLESS other people and instruments/cameras can observe/record EXACTLY THE SAME experience.

Many people believe that they are Napoleons. Their experience is real to them. However, we know they are delusional just like people who see, hear or 'feel' Jesus.

Yes, but if we could also experience those things too, the nature of God would no longer be personal. It would be public to everyone.

For all we know, God does not follow the rules of science and physics. God could easily be invisible to our eyes and our instruments, does that mean God does not exist? Then this would mean that we are God, because either we can observe it or it does not exist.

ATMD

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Those are brain malfunctions. Unless you have some objective observers verifying the experience, these "spiritual experiences" are just that, confined to a person's brain. Just like dreams or conscious thoughts.

The human brain is very complicated. Many people suffer from mental disorders. I think believing in something that is not real is a delusion.

Religion is a mental disorder.

Yes, but how do we know what they experience is not real. Their experiences could very well be as real as the keyboard you are typing on.

Is it because we can not observe God for ourselves?

What if the nature of God is a personal relationship?

If we have no personal relationship with God does that mean others can not have as well?

To dismiss their relationships with God would be lying to ourselves.

ATMD

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Quote from: ?? on ??

You need an open mind to evaluate if the evidence presented is true.

Accepting religious stories without evidence is being gullible, not being open-minded.

You can say I don't know if a God exists.

The evidence presented in the scriptures definitely rules out the existence of those Abrahamic Gods. End of story.

If you have evidence of any other Gods, let's hear it.

Exactly. You need an open mind to evaluate if the evidence presented is true. The problem for both of us is the evidences are anecdotal. A guy says an unbelievable miracle happened in his life blah blah blah... Another guy says this unexplained miracle happened in his life blah blah blah... These are anecdotal evidences, they can not be proven by anyone except the person himself. I am not talking about the bible, it is not evidence. I am talking about mystical, spiritual experiences that science can not explain. How do we, as logical scientific-minded people, reconcile these experiences with our science? Are we to dismiss their experiences as being crazy and simply hallucination? If we say that, they would call us close-minded people.

Topic: Why do you believe God exists? - page 11. (Read 7969 times)