Why do you believe God exists? - page 12.

ATMD

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 11:35:18 AM

Well then god is an absolute idiot. How can your brain actually write that and be ok with it? I can kill as many people as I want as long as I accept jesus salvation? Of course I would accept jesus salvation, knowing I'm going to hell if not or jail, why would a murderer not repent? It seems his best choice. God is an idiot.

He was being sarcastic.

Astargath

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Quote from: BADecker on December 01, 2018, 11:10:33 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 11:00:14 AM

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 10:54:53 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 10:27:25 AM

There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer.

The overwhelming majority of human suffering is induced by the evils of our fellow human beings. It comes about as a result of the human freedom to be evil and make poor choices. This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.

The small remnant of suffering independent of man is the result of our ignorance limited science and lack of knowledge. This portion of suffering naturally trends towards zero over time as knowledge and technology advance.

''This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.'' Yes it can, that's such a bullshit argument. I can think of 10 ways to reduce suffering right now, without tampering with freedom. For instance, why even allow diseases in the first place? God could have prevented them all along (that's not tampering with freedom) Also birth defects and so on. The only thing god wouldn't be able to prevent are things like, someone shooting someone because that's his choice, however since he will send you to hell for it, he could just prevent that from happening in the moment. He is tampering with your freedom when he sends you to hell, isn't he? So why not stop that before it even happens?

Please, use some logic.

Never shooting someone to death is never something that keeps a person out of Hell. Shooting a person to death is never something that sends a person to Hell.

There is only one thing that keeps a person out of Hell. Lacking that one thing is the only reason why people go to Hell. What is that one thing? It is believing in Jesus salvation.

Shooting someone, or voluntary sinning in other ways, are all things that wear on Jesus salvation faith. Enough voluntary sinning by a person of faith, may destroy that faith in him. But it is the faith in Jesus salvation, or lack of it, that determines a person's Heaven/Hell final position.

Cool

Well then god is an absolute idiot. How can your brain actually write that and be ok with it? I can kill as many people as I want as long as I accept jesus salvation? Of course I would accept jesus salvation, knowing I'm going to hell if not or jail, why would a murderer not repent? It seems his best choice. God is an idiot.

sirazimuth

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born once atheist

Quote from: BADecker on December 01, 2018, 10:51:48 AM

God made everything to work the way it does.

He made metals so that they could be formed by metallurgy into guns. But He also made the metals and metallurgy for other purposes.

God made the materials in gunpowder. He made them to be used for other purposes than gunpowder. But He made them to be used as gunpowder if that's the way a person wants to use them.

It wasn't God's idea for a person to shoot himself in the foot. But if a person does this, he gets the results of shooting himself in the foot.

God made everything for the worship of Himself, God. It's the way things work.

Shoot yourself in the head by not worshiping God, if you want. He gives you that freedom. You might even think that you are blaming God for it, when you use your freedom to shoot yourself in the head. But when you are that stupid, he gains glory even from that... because you are dead, but He and many others know that you freely did it to yourself, using the freedom that He gave you.

Cool

Quote from: BADecker on December 01, 2018, 10:59:23 AM

No! The lake of fire is for dissolution. You are beyond purification if you get to the lake of fire.

God won't put up with your rebellion forever. There will come a time when He will say "Enough." That time will come for you if/when you die in your rejection of Him.

What do they do with old, worn-out, junkyard cars? They load them up on a truck, and take them back to the smelters, to melt them down and get the metal out of them to use in new cars and other equipment.

The lake of fire is the place where junk beings are smelted down to get the material out of them to be used for other purposes.

Change, now, while you still have the chance, before you go into the lake of fire where your essence will be torn apart in the excessive heat, so that the pieces which formerly were you, can be used in other places for other things.

Cool

BADecker's favorite method to illustrate his nonsense.
make a bunch of silly assertions without a shred of evidence to back them up.
like how the phuk does he know all this shit?
great examples of the fallacy of proof by assertion.
pious folk seem to do this constantly.

af_newbie

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Quote from: BADecker on December 01, 2018, 10:59:23 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 10:43:25 AM

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 10:40:03 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 10:18:40 AM

If your child goes to hell after you die and you are already in heaven, would you feel sad that he/she is in pain for eternity?

That would depend on the nature and purpose of hell. Is it's ultimate purpose torture or rectification punishment or purification.

A constant theme of the Bible is the conversation of evil to good. In Christianity an example of this is the cross. One of the most evil and horrifying torture devices of antiquity transformed into a symbol of hope that indisputably forever altered the trajectory of history.

For this reason and others I favor the rectification/purification perspective.

In the lakes of fire?

No! The lake of fire is for dissolution. You are beyond purification if you get to the lake of fire.

God won't put up with your rebellion forever. There will come a time when He will say "Enough." That time will come for you if/when you die in your rejection of Him.

What do they do with old, worn-out, junkyard cars? They load them up on a truck, and take them back to the smelters, to melt them down and get the metal out of them to use in new cars and other equipment.

The lake of fire is the place where junk beings are smelted down to get the material out of them to be used for other purposes.

Change, now, while you still have the chance, before you go into the lake of fire where your essence will be torn apart in the excessive heat, so that the pieces which formerly were you, can be used in other places for other things.

Cool

Are you sure you are reading this from the Bible?

Revelation 20:13–15
13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Maybe you are confusing it with Dante's The Divine Comedy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Comedy

You are confusing the two literary works.

It is all funny as we are really discussing what is the color of the Snow White's hat.

Both works are that, stories. Why you cannot see that in the 21st century is beyond me? WFT? Who are you, people?

BADecker

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Activity: 3906

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 11:00:14 AM

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 10:54:53 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 10:27:25 AM

There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer.

The overwhelming majority of human suffering is induced by the evils of our fellow human beings. It comes about as a result of the human freedom to be evil and make poor choices. This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.

The small remnant of suffering independent of man is the result of our ignorance limited science and lack of knowledge. This portion of suffering naturally trends towards zero over time as knowledge and technology advance.

''This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.'' Yes it can, that's such a bullshit argument. I can think of 10 ways to reduce suffering right now, without tampering with freedom. For instance, why even allow diseases in the first place? God could have prevented them all along (that's not tampering with freedom) Also birth defects and so on. The only thing god wouldn't be able to prevent are things like, someone shooting someone because that's his choice, however since he will send you to hell for it, he could just prevent that from happening in the moment. He is tampering with your freedom when he sends you to hell, isn't he? So why not stop that before it even happens?

Please, use some logic.

Never shooting someone to death is never something that keeps a person out of Hell. Shooting a person to death is never something that sends a person to Hell.

There is only one thing that keeps a person out of Hell. Lacking that one thing is the only reason why people go to Hell. What is that one thing? It is believing in Jesus salvation.

Shooting someone, or voluntary sinning in other ways, are all things that wear on Jesus salvation faith. Enough voluntary sinning by a person of faith, may destroy that faith in him. But it is the faith in Jesus salvation, or lack of it, that determines a person's Heaven/Hell final position.

Cool

Astargath

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Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 10:54:53 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 10:27:25 AM

There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer.

The overwhelming majority of human suffering is induced by the evils of our fellow human beings. It comes about as a result of the human freedom to be evil and make poor choices. This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.

The small remnant of suffering independent of man is the result of our ignorance limited science and lack of knowledge. This portion of suffering naturally trends towards zero over time as knowledge and technology advance.

''This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.'' Yes it can, that's such a bullshit argument. I can think of 10 ways to reduce suffering right now, without tampering with freedom. For instance, why even allow diseases in the first place? God could have prevented them all along (that's not tampering with freedom) Also birth defects and so on. The only thing god wouldn't be able to prevent are things like, someone shooting someone because that's his choice, however since he will send you to hell for it, he could just prevent that from happening in the moment. He is tampering with your freedom when he sends you to hell, isn't he? So why not stop that before it even happens?

Please, use some logic.

BADecker

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Activity: 3906

Merit: 1373

Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 10:43:25 AM

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 10:40:03 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 10:18:40 AM

If your child goes to hell after you die and you are already in heaven, would you feel sad that he/she is in pain for eternity?

That would depend on the nature and purpose of hell. Is it's ultimate purpose torture or rectification punishment or purification.

A constant theme of the Bible is the conversation of evil to good. In Christianity an example of this is the cross. One of the most evil and horrifying torture devices of antiquity transformed into a symbol of hope that indisputably forever altered the trajectory of history.

For this reason and others I favor the rectification/purification perspective.

In the lakes of fire?

No! The lake of fire is for dissolution. You are beyond purification if you get to the lake of fire.

God won't put up with your rebellion forever. There will come a time when He will say "Enough." That time will come for you if/when you die in your rejection of Him.

What do they do with old, worn-out, junkyard cars? They load them up on a truck, and take them back to the smelters, to melt them down and get the metal out of them to use in new cars and other equipment.

The lake of fire is the place where junk beings are smelted down to get the material out of them to be used for other purposes.

Change, now, while you still have the chance, before you go into the lake of fire where your essence will be torn apart in the excessive heat, so that the pieces which formerly were you, can be used in other places for other things.

Cool

CoinCube

legendary

Activity: 1946

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 10:27:25 AM

There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer.

The overwhelming majority of human suffering is induced by the evils of our fellow human beings. It comes about as a result of the human freedom to be evil and make poor choices. This suffering could not be excised without removing the human capacity for choice.

The small remnant of suffering independent of man is the result of our ignorance limited science and lack of knowledge. This portion of suffering naturally trends towards zero over time as knowledge and technology advance.

BADecker

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Activity: 3906

Merit: 1373

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:34:51 AM

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 09:27:40 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:21:39 AM

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

Obey or be killed. The choice shared by all slaves throughout history.

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

You talk from a standpoint of ignorance.

God made everything to work the way it does.

He made metals so that they could be formed by metallurgy into guns. But He also made the metals and metallurgy for other purposes.

God made the materials in gunpowder. He made them to be used for other purposes than gunpowder. But He made them to be used as gunpowder if that's the way a person wants to use them.

It wasn't God's idea for a person to shoot himself in the foot. But if a person does this, he gets the results of shooting himself in the foot.

God made everything for the worship of Himself, God. It's the way things work.

Shoot yourself in the head by not worshiping God, if you want. He gives you that freedom. You might even think that you are blaming God for it, when you use your freedom to shoot yourself in the head. But when you are that stupid, he gains glory even from that... because you are dead, but He and many others know that you freely did it to yourself, using the freedom that He gave you.

Cool

af_newbie

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Activity: 2702

Merit: 1468

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 10:40:03 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 10:18:40 AM

If your child goes to hell after you die and you are already in heaven, would you feel sad that he/she is in pain for eternity?

That would depend on the nature and purpose of hell. Is it's ultimate purpose torture or rectification punishment or purification.

A constant theme of the Bible is the conversation of evil to good. In Christianity an example of this is the cross. One of the most evil and horrifying torture devices of antiquity transformed into a symbol of hope that indisputably forever altered the trajectory of history.

For this reason and others I favor the rectification/purification perspective.

In the lakes of fire?

CoinCube

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Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 10:18:40 AM

If your child goes to hell after you die and you are already in heaven, would you feel sad that he/she is in pain for eternity?

That would depend on the nature and purpose of hell. Is it's ultimate purpose torture or rectification punishment or purification.

A constant theme of the Bible is the conversation of evil to good. In Christianity an example of this is the cross. One of the most evil and horrifying torture devices of antiquity transformed into a symbol of hope that indisputably forever altered the trajectory of history.

For this reason and others I favor the rectification/purification perspective.

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 10:13:52 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:34:51 AM

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

Any existence beyond death is unearned. All we have earned is oblivion. An afterlife would be a gift of grace one we certainly do not deserve.

The difference here is that the robber is taking from you by force weakening maybe even killing you.

An afterlife would be the opposite process an unearned gift making you stronger and extending your existence long after it would have run its natural course into oblivion.

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:34:51 AM

An all knowing, all powerful all loving god would be able to make everyone believe in him (without forcing them either).

God could certainly could have done that. He could also have made a universe without any freedom where everything just played itself out in a predetermined manner like a rock falling to the ground.

Instead he created an ordered open universe where everything seems possible and freedom is maximized. Great error is permitted and belief is not compelled. That is in my humble opinion a far grander accomplishment.

Scientifically speaking that's not possible. If he created everything, then everything is determined (ask your buddy badecker) so you can't have freedom. Also as I said already, god wouldn't need to take your freedom away to convince you of his existence so this argument is utterly useless. There is simply no reason for an all loving-powerful-knowing god to let people suffer. Not to mention the fact that some people will live and die without ever knowing about god. It's a mess, god from the bible is clearly not real. You only need a bit of logic to realize it, really.

af_newbie

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Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 09:08:22 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 05:02:15 AM

Under all circumstances, I am a free man. Always was and always will be.

Yes you are a free man. You live in a deterministic universe yet you are free. You fail to see the miracle in that which is your perogrative.

If your child goes to hell after you die and you are already in heaven, would you feel sad that he/she is in pain for eternity?

If not, you are a psychopath as you lack empathy for others especially your own flesh and blood.

If you do, you are better than your God, and you are not in heaven because you feel sad.

Being free is the only sane option to be happy.

CoinCube

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Activity: 1946

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:34:51 AM

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

Any existence beyond death is unearned. All we have earned is oblivion. An afterlife would be a gift of grace one we certainly do not deserve.

The difference here is that the robber is taking from you by force weakening maybe even killing you.

An afterlife would be the opposite process an unearned gift making you stronger and extending your existence long after it would have run its natural course into oblivion.

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:34:51 AM

An all knowing, all powerful all loving god would be able to make everyone believe in him (without forcing them either).

God could certainly could have done that. He could also have made a universe without any freedom where everything just played itself out in a predetermined manner like a rock falling to the ground.

Instead he created an ordered open universe where everything seems possible and freedom is maximized. Great error is permitted and belief is not compelled. That is in my humble opinion a far grander accomplishment.

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 09:27:40 AM

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:21:39 AM

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

Obey or be killed. The choice shared by all slaves throughout history.

And that's god, obey or be tortured forever in hell. Then again, god from the bible doesn't exist, clearly.

By definition in the bible, God is all knowing and all loving, therefore he would want all humans to believe and follow him. Do all humans follow and believe in him? No, therefore, god doesn't exist. Because an all knowing, all powerful all loving god would be able to make everyone believe in him (without forcing them either).

Let's say he couldn't, then why create humans at all? Why create animals? They are all going to die and lots of them will be tortured forever or die, what's the point of it? Just don't create them if you are all loving, you are essentially creating pain for nothing.

CoinCube

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Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 09:21:39 AM

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

Obey or be killed. The choice shared by all slaves throughout history.

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 09:08:22 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 05:02:15 AM

Under all circumstances, I am a free man. Always was and always will be.

Yes you are a free man. You live in a deterministic universe yet you are free. You fail to see the miracle in that which is your perogrative.

If you were denied the ability to reject God whatever the circumstances you would not ultimately be free.

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 05:44:50 AM

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

Do you feel like a slave? Do you feel you have no choice?

Or do you feel you were given a choice evaluated the data and made a decision?

If a robber points a gun at you and he asks you to give him your money or die, do you feel like slave? You have a choice, don't you?

CoinCube

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Activity: 1946

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Quote from: af_newbie on December 01, 2018, 05:02:15 AM

Under all circumstances, I am a free man. Always was and always will be.

Yes you are a free man. You live in a deterministic universe yet you are free. You fail to see the miracle in that which is your perogrative.

If you were denied the ability to reject God whatever the circumstances you would not ultimately be free.

Quote from: Astargath on December 01, 2018, 05:44:50 AM

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

Do you feel like a slave? Do you feel you have no choice?

Or do you feel you were given a choice evaluated the data and made a decision?

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 01:52:34 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on November 29, 2018, 07:19:48 PM

There are billions of videos on youtube. Not one is from God himself.

Say God came to you personally via YouTube or whatever format you found convincing gave you personal commands after informing you that you as the creator of the universe his will is paramount.

In that circumstance would you be a free man or a slave?

You would be a slave compelled by a power greater then you. By not compelling our belief God grants us freedom. We are free to accept God or reject him.

When we genuinely look for God he is easily found in the miracles of daily life all around us. Similarly when we truly reject God he becomes all but invisible to us and we are left alone to swim in a sea of nihilism.

We are slaves already, it's either belief in god or torture in hell forever. If God wanted, he would know exactly what it takes to convince me or newbie of his existence. God does not exist.

af_newbie

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Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 01:52:34 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on November 29, 2018, 07:19:48 PM

There are billions of videos on youtube. Not one is from God himself.

Say God came to you personally via YouTube or whatever format you found convincing gave you personal commands after informing you that you as the creator of the universe his will is paramount.

I would question my sanity first. Then I would give him a test that the only expert in the fields of Theoretical Physics, History, Mathematics, Chemistry, Biology, Civil Engineering, and CS would know. I would ask him how my grandfather died and what watch brand was he wearing when he died. Who was with him when he died?

I would ask other anti-Theists to talk to him and let me know what they think just to eliminate my subjective interpretation of the interaction.

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 01:52:34 AM

In that circumstance would you be a free man or a slave?

Under all circumstances, I am a free man. Always was and always will be.

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 01:52:34 AM

You would be a slave compelled by a power greater then you. By not compelling our belief God grants us freedom. We are free to accept God or reject him.

No, I would not. If something would make me a slave, I would go and check myself into a mental institution, because this would mean I am losing my mind.

Quote from: CoinCube on December 01, 2018, 01:52:34 AM

When we genuinely look for God he is easily found in the miracles of daily life all around us.

That is when your delusion starts and your sanity ends.

Topic: Why do you believe God exists? - page 12. (Read 7889 times)