Why do you believe God exists? - page 25.

CoinCube

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Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 08:16:23 PM

CoinCube,

You should re-phrase the description of your claim#1 and state that you cannot prove it. Then you can stop there.

Doing otherwise, you are just fooling yourself. If you care about the truth, you should double check each step in your logic before you proceed further.

BTW, the universe as we know it has infinities and probabilistic representations that are hard to represent by logic or arithmetic.

This is a very foolish statement to make.

Even pure mathematics which is the closest we can come to absolutely proving something is built on core basic assumptions that cannot be proven.

Honest arguments clearly lay out the assumptions they make and allow the reader to decide if they accept them or not. Dishonest arguments hide their assumptions or deny that any such assumptions exist.

You can for example chose to believe that the universe is illogical and cannot be described with mathematics and that any success with this approach so far is just a very long string of random occurance but this belief is quite hard to reconcile with science let alone common sense.

CoinCube

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Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 07:11:30 PM

Please show us that the universe can be treated as a Turing machine.

Here is the formal logic behind claim #1. Credit for this goes to Perry Marshal who outlined it here:

See: The #1 Mathematical Discovery of the 20th Century

Stated in Formal Language:

Gödel’s theorem says: “Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.”

The Church-Turing thesis says that a physical system can express elementary arithmetic just as a human can, and that the arithmetic of a Turing Machine (computer) is not provable within the system and is likewise subject to incompleteness.

Any physical system subjected to measurement is capable of expressing elementary arithmetic. (In other words, children can do math by counting their fingers, water flowing into a bucket does integration, and physical systems always give the right answer.)

Therefore the universe is capable of expressing elementary arithmetic and like both mathematics itself and a Turing machine, is incomplete.

Syllogism:
1. All non-trivial computational systems are incomplete
2. The universe is a non-trivial computational system
3. Therefore the universe is incomplete

af_newbie

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Quote from: CoinCube on October 02, 2018, 07:53:31 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 07:11:30 PM

You are making logical mistakes in your claim#1, as follows:

You are assuming the universe is a machine that can be modeled by a mechanical machine and you applied Church-Turing thesis and claimed that the universe can be expressed in arithmetic axioms, then you applied Gödel’s incompleteness theorem to arrive that there must be a true axiom that cannot be proven. Then you moved that axiom outside of the system, to make it your God I presume.

Please show us that the universe can be treated as a Turing machine. Where is your proof of that? Are you familiar with quantum effects, or you continue to live in the 1930s?

You are twisting the existing Math theorems to fit your conclusions. Why do you even bother when you skip the fundamental steps along the way?

...

You are applying Math incorrectly and connecting the dots to fit your desired outcome.

This is a fair challenge.

"Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy.

And: If the universe is mathematical and logical, Incompleteness also applies to the universe."

My argument assumes apriori that the universe is mathematical and logical. I take the position that the totality of human experience including science backs that claim.

Nevertheless I concede that I cannot prove it.

All systems of belief can be traced back to assumed axioms. Belief in a mathematical and logical universe is one of mine.

I would note that quantum mechanics in no way shows that the universe is illogical or that it cannot be described with mathematics.

CoinCube,

You should re-phrase the description of your claim#1 and state that you cannot prove it. Then you can stop there.

Doing otherwise, you are just fooling yourself. If you care about the truth, you should double check each step in your logic before you proceed further.

BTW, the universe as we know it has infinities and probabilistic representations that are hard to represent by logic or arithmetic.

CoinCube

legendary

Activity: 1946

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Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 07:11:30 PM

You are making logical mistakes in your claim#1, as follows:

You are assuming the universe is a machine that can be modeled by a mechanical machine and you applied Church-Turing thesis and claimed that the universe can be expressed in arithmetic axioms, then you applied Gödel’s incompleteness theorem to arrive that there must be a true axiom that cannot be proven. Then you moved that axiom outside of the system, to make it your God I presume.

Please show us that the universe can be treated as a Turing machine. Where is your proof of that? Are you familiar with quantum effects, or you continue to live in the 1930s?

You are twisting the existing Math theorems to fit your conclusions. Why do you even bother when you skip the fundamental steps along the way?

...

You are applying Math incorrectly and connecting the dots to fit your desired outcome.

This is a fair challenge.

"Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem applies not just to math, but to everything that is subject to the laws of logic. Incompleteness is true in math; it’s equally true in science or language or philosophy.

And: If the universe is mathematical and logical, Incompleteness also applies to the universe."

My argument assumes apriori that the universe is mathematical and logical. I take the position that the totality of human experience including science backs that claim.

Nevertheless I concede that I cannot prove it.

All systems of belief can be traced back to assumed axioms. Belief in a mathematical and logical universe is one of mine.

I would note that quantum mechanics in no way shows that the universe is illogical or that it cannot be described with mathematics.

af_newbie

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Activity: 2702

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Quote from: CoinCube on October 02, 2018, 03:04:02 PM

Quote from: Parodium on July 19, 2018, 02:50:46 PM

Alright guys, let's get this back on track. So far I've had a lot of blabbering, and no real rationale behind beliefs.

I want you to explain to me WHY you believe in God despite the evidence presented in OP.

Parodium the link below is the logic that led me to believe in God despite the arguments outlined in your opening post.

It's a bit long so I will link to it rather then quote the entirety of it here. The words and logic are mine.

In it I demonstrate to my satisfaction that it is far more logical to believe in God then to deny his God's existence.

An Argument for God

You are making logical mistakes in your claim#1, as follows:

You are assuming the universe is a machine that can be modeled by a mechanical machine and you applied Church-Turing thesis and claimed that the universe can be expressed in arithmetic axioms, then you applied Gödel’s incompleteness theorem to arrive that there must be a true axiom that cannot be proven. Then you moved that axiom outside of the system, to make it your God I presume.

Please show us that the universe can be treated as a Turing machine. Where is your proof of that? Are you familiar with quantum effects, or you continue to live in the 1930s?

You are twisting the existing Math theorems to fit your conclusions. Why do you even bother when you skip the fundamental steps along the way?

I did not go over the rest of your claims (I remember we went over them in the past), I feel it is like talking to notbatman with his electric field replacement for gravity.

You are applying Math incorrectly and connecting the dots to fit your desired outcome.

You are confounding enough Math, Metaphysics into your word salad to confuse the uninitiated. Sorry buddy, you'll be challenged here.

This is the bitcoin forum, not some religious "#jesuslovesme" forum.

CoinCube

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Quote from: Astargath on October 02, 2018, 04:46:15 PM

And again there are huge problems with that.

Yes and we discussed your disagreement with my logic in great depth.
I hold that the argument is sound and found your rebuttals lacking.

Nevertheless I have no desire to rehash old debates and retread fruitless ground. If anyone wants to read that exchange they can do so.

The OP asked a question and I have responded. If he wishes to engage further I will oblige but otherwise am content to let the matter rest.

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: CoinCube on October 02, 2018, 03:04:02 PM

Quote from: Parodium on July 19, 2018, 02:50:46 PM

Alright guys, let's get this back on track. So far I've had a lot of blabbering, and no real rationale behind beliefs.

I want you to explain to me WHY you believe in God despite the evidence presented in OP.

Parodium the link below is the logic that led me to believe in God despite the arguments outlined in your opening post.

It's a bit long so I will link to it rather then quote the entirety of it here. The words and logic are mine.

In it I demonstrate to my satisfaction that it is far more logical to believe in God then to deny his God's existence.

An Argument for God

And again there are huge problems with that.

Claim 1: Incorrectly applying godels theorem.

Claim 2: Is not a scientific theory and is not ''the best known system that allows us to prove the truths we can and infer the truths we cannot'' There is very little on the internet about that ''theory'', your link also says ''even more simply still, a belief is true when it fits in with the set of all our other beliefs without creating a contradiction.'' which is simply wrong. It's also extremely vague and doesn't explain anything.

CoinCube

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Activity: 1946

Merit: 1055

Quote from: Parodium on July 19, 2018, 02:50:46 PM

Alright guys, let's get this back on track. So far I've had a lot of blabbering, and no real rationale behind beliefs.

I want you to explain to me WHY you believe in God despite the evidence presented in OP.

Parodium the link below is the logic that led me to believe in God despite the arguments outlined in your opening post.

It's a bit long so I will link to it rather then quote the entirety of it here. The words and logic are mine.

In it I demonstrate to my satisfaction that it is far more logical to believe in God then to deny his God's existence.

An Argument for God

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: BADecker on October 02, 2018, 01:39:24 PM

Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 01:31:06 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 07:40:08 AM

I was going with

If there is free will in heaven, then there is evil in heaven, so it is not heaven.

If there is no free will in heaven, then it is a prison, so it is not heaven.

i.e. there is no heaven.

All using religitards' logic.

In Heaven, evil won't exist. So there is no free will to do evil. But not because there wouldn't be if it existed.

Cool

So you will not be able to lift your finger, never mind to do anything else, like taking a piss whenever you want, LOL.

Nice heaven concept you got there. At least Muslims talk about streets full of gold, wine and virgins. And you guys hope to go to a place where you won't be able to do anything on your own free will.

Before you reply with your: "But in heaven, with free will, we will be able to only do good, not evil", it is not free will if you cannot do both good and/or evil. That is why you guys call it FREE will.

Checkmate. There is no heaven using your own Christian logic.

If lifting your finger is evil in Heaven, you won't have the free will to lift your finger.

When there isn't any such thing as evil, there won't be any free will to do such.

Since you like evil so much, you will go to the place where all the evil will exist... the place you have asked for... Hell. You won't have any free will to choose good, there. Because there won't be any good there. Your choice. Choose well while you still have time.

Cool

If that's the case then there would be no need to live here and not directly in heaven. I asked you numerous times what's the point of earth, why not go directly to heaven and your response was always, god didn't want to force us and gave us free will yet you are saying in heaven we wont have free will. A 10 year old would understand the flawed logic here lmao.

BADecker

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Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 01:31:06 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 07:40:08 AM

I was going with

If there is free will in heaven, then there is evil in heaven, so it is not heaven.

If there is no free will in heaven, then it is a prison, so it is not heaven.

i.e. there is no heaven.

All using religitards' logic.

In Heaven, evil won't exist. So there is no free will to do evil. But not because there wouldn't be if it existed.

Cool

So you will not be able to lift your finger, never mind to do anything else, like taking a piss whenever you want, LOL.

Nice heaven concept you got there. At least Muslims talk about streets full of gold, wine and virgins. And you guys hope to go to a place where you won't be able to do anything on your own free will.

Before you reply with your: "But in heaven, with free will, we will be able to only do good, not evil", it is not free will if you cannot do both good and/or evil. That is why you guys call it FREE will.

Checkmate. There is no heaven using your own Christian logic.

If lifting your finger is evil in Heaven, you won't have the free will to lift your finger.

When there isn't any such thing as evil, there won't be any free will to do such.

Since you like evil so much, you will go to the place where all the evil will exist... the place you have asked for... Hell. You won't have any free will to choose good, there. Because there won't be any good there. Your choice. Choose well while you still have time.

Cool

af_newbie

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Activity: 2702

Merit: 1468

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: af_newbie on October 02, 2018, 07:40:08 AM

Quote from: Moloch on October 02, 2018, 06:57:14 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on October 01, 2018, 08:05:45 AM

Is there free will in heaven?

You have the free will to do whatever God wants... that's free enough, right?

What if my uncle molested me as a child and I hate him, but he is also a christian? If he is in heaven too, then it is not heaven for me since I hate him... If God changes me so I don't hate him any longer, then I am not me, and whatever is in heaven, is not me...

Sounds like a lose-lose proposition... glad I'm going to hell so I don't have to worry about it

I was going with

If there is free will in heaven, then there is evil in heaven, so it is not heaven.

If there is no free will in heaven, then it is a prison, so it is not heaven.

i.e. there is no heaven.

All using religitards' logic.

In Heaven, evil won't exist. So there is no free will to do evil. But not because there wouldn't be if it existed.

Cool

So you will not be able to lift your finger, never mind to do anything else, like taking a piss whenever you want, LOL.

Nice heaven concept you got there. At least Muslims talk about streets full of gold, wine and virgins. And you guys hope to go to a place where you won't be able to do anything on your own free will.

Before you reply with your: "But in heaven, with free will, we will be able to only do good, not evil", it is not free will if you cannot do both good and/or evil. That is why you guys call it FREE will.

Checkmate. There is no heaven using your own Christian logic.

BADecker

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A person who knows that God exists, can't believe that He exists.

Cool

BADecker

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Quote from: Moloch on October 02, 2018, 06:57:14 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on October 01, 2018, 08:05:45 AM

Is there free will in heaven?

You have the free will to do whatever God wants... that's free enough, right?

What if my uncle molested me as a child and I hate him, but he is also a christian? If he is in heaven too, then it is not heaven for me since I hate him... If God changes me so I don't hate him any longer, then I am not me, and whatever is in heaven, is not me...

Sounds like a lose-lose proposition... glad I'm going to hell so I don't have to worry about it

You got it right-ish.

In Hell you will be too much in pain to worry about anything.

Cool

af_newbie

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Quote from: Moloch on October 02, 2018, 06:57:14 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on October 01, 2018, 08:05:45 AM

Is there free will in heaven?

You have the free will to do whatever God wants... that's free enough, right?

What if my uncle molested me as a child and I hate him, but he is also a christian? If he is in heaven too, then it is not heaven for me since I hate him... If God changes me so I don't hate him any longer, then I am not me, and whatever is in heaven, is not me...

Sounds like a lose-lose proposition... glad I'm going to hell so I don't have to worry about it

I was going with

If there is free will in heaven, then there is evil in heaven, so it is not heaven.

If there is no free will in heaven, then it is a prison, so it is not heaven.

i.e. there is no heaven.

All using religitards' logic.

Astargath

hero member

Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: Moloch on October 02, 2018, 06:57:14 AM

Quote from: af_newbie on October 01, 2018, 08:05:45 AM

Is there free will in heaven?

You have the free will to do whatever God wants... that's free enough, right?

What if my uncle molested me as a child and I hate him, but he is also a christian? If he is in heaven too, then it is not heaven for me since I hate him... If God changes me so I don't hate him any longer, then I am not me, and whatever is in heaven, is not me...

Sounds like a lose-lose proposition... glad I'm going to hell so I don't have to worry about it

Yes, hundreds of awkward situations like those. For instance if someone kills my wife but then the killer repents and my wife wasn't a christian, he will go to heaven with me and she will be in hell tortured forever. Also this is not a fair test because people that are born in christian countries are obviously going to believe in the christian god, someone born in a muslim country wont. Just like if I live 80 years vs 40, more chances to become a christian if I live 80. So yeah, god is stupid.

Moloch

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Quote from: af_newbie on October 01, 2018, 08:05:45 AM

Is there free will in heaven?

You have the free will to do whatever God wants... that's free enough, right?

What if my uncle molested me as a child and I hate him, but he is also a christian? If he is in heaven too, then it is not heaven for me since I hate him... If God changes me so I don't hate him any longer, then I am not me, and whatever is in heaven, is not me...

Sounds like a lose-lose proposition... glad I'm going to hell so I don't have to worry about it

af_newbie

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Activity: 2702

Merit: 1468

Quote from: BADecker on October 01, 2018, 07:40:03 AM

Quote from: Astargath on October 01, 2018, 05:43:31 AM

Then again, thanks to science we can drive cars, fly planes, fly to mars. That's because it works, the tests works, the method works. It's proven, period. Religion on the other hand, not so much, otherwise we would be praying all the time instead of doing scientific tests, why bother, right? Just pray to god and he will heal us, make the car and planes for us. Yet every religious nutjob out there still goes to the doctor, still takes the medicine, instead of praying to god.

Science works, religion does not.

Then again, thanks to God giving us our whole world, our bodies and our brains, we have the ability to use some of the science He created for us.

Cool

Is there free will in heaven?

Astargath

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Activity: 1624

Merit: 645

Quote from: BADecker on October 01, 2018, 07:40:03 AM

Quote from: Astargath on October 01, 2018, 05:43:31 AM

Then again, thanks to science we can drive cars, fly planes, fly to mars. That's because it works, the tests works, the method works. It's proven, period. Religion on the other hand, not so much, otherwise we would be praying all the time instead of doing scientific tests, why bother, right? Just pray to god and he will heal us, make the car and planes for us. Yet every religious nutjob out there still goes to the doctor, still takes the medicine, instead of praying to god.

Science works, religion does not.

Then again, thanks to God giving us our whole world, our bodies and our brains, we have the ability to use some of the science He created for us.

Cool

Prove it. You were not able in the ''scientific proof of god'' so why bother saying things like that when it's not proven? 0 proof.

BADecker

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Merit: 1373

Quote from: Astargath on October 01, 2018, 05:43:31 AM

Then again, thanks to science we can drive cars, fly planes, fly to mars. That's because it works, the tests works, the method works. It's proven, period. Religion on the other hand, not so much, otherwise we would be praying all the time instead of doing scientific tests, why bother, right? Just pray to god and he will heal us, make the car and planes for us. Yet every religious nutjob out there still goes to the doctor, still takes the medicine, instead of praying to god.

Science works, religion does not.

Then again, thanks to God giving us our whole world, our bodies and our brains, we have the ability to use some of the science He created for us.

Cool

BitPotus

hero member

Activity: 1050

Merit: 604

We are all "gods"...

Topic: Why do you believe God exists? - page 25. (Read 7902 times)