Topic: Why I'm an atheist - page 23. (Read 89029 times)

I did not miss it.  You say a lot of nonsense, to reply to all of it just takes too much of my time.

Your statement is even more irrational than your religious myth.

The free will that we supposedly possess is not in this world, but somehow we can still use it to affect our deterministic world in non-deterministic (free will) fashion. Do you hear yourself?

You just shift things around to cling to your mythology.  "God is outside of the known universe, space-time that is why we cannot detect him, yet he controls everything in this universe; now, the free will is somewhere else outside of our deterministic world, etc."

As science discovers more and more and invalidates every single detail in the Bible, you have to move the goalposts, change the meaning of words, reinterpret the verses, and redefine what and where God and free will are.

You are making shit up as you go.

You have no logical arguments, other than entropy increases, therefore we had low entropy when the universe started, therefore God started the universe.  Yet, when scientists make similar extrapolation about the space-time and conclude that the universe started with a BB, you object.

When I showed you that you cannot have free will in the deterministic universe, you claim that the free will exist but it is not in this universe.

You make no sense.  When I say A is dependent on B, you say A is not dependent on B because B is not B.

That is the crux of all of your arguments.

As usual you missed something. This time it is the fact that I said we have free will.

The fact that you don't believe what God says, shows that you believe in the myth that God doesn't exist. Rather religious of you.

So you are a Christian heretic by denying that humans have free will.

Now we are getting warmer.  There is no free will as defined by religious myths.  That was my fucking point from the beginning.  I was trying to explain the Christian dogma to you because you do not understand what it says and what it means.

Now, that you understand that there is no free will we can both agree that God is responsible (cause) for all the evil in this world.  Again.  I am just stating what your religious dogma says.  I do not believe in evil or God.  Just bad/good shit happens to good/bad people.

As for randomness, it is observable, read the PDF I posted, it seems like it is an emergent property of the underlying system.  Check the causal fermion system theory.  

BTW, I do not believe in ANY details from any religious myths.  Free will, demons, angels, sin, God, hell or heaven.  It is all made up shit to scare people and give the religious conmen 10% of their income.  Gypsies lifting curses, card readers, fortune tellers, religious preachers are all the same, conmen.

You simply don't understand that your free will actions are dictated by the present bio-chemical situation of your synapses. And the present bio-chemical situation of your synapses is dictated by the food you ate, the water you drank, the radiant energy hitting your body, and all kinds of other firing synapses that might not have anything to do with your free will activity in question. So, it isn't really free will, since all these other activities are directing how it works.

What this all means is that your free will is situated somewhere else.

I don't think you understand what free will is in the context of your religious myth.

Free will is not just a wish. If God were the gatekeeper of your wishes, why does he not stop serial killers and rapists from committing their crimes? The only conclusion is that either we have a free will to do whatever we want (God cannot stop us) or that he is one evil motherfucker for allowing the murder and rape to take place.  Christians absolved God from the apparent evil in this world by adding free will to their dogma to blame people and their actions (free will) for all the evil in this world.

When you have free will you are an independent acting agent; regardless of the prior causes and effects, i.e. your free will is the randomness in the otherwise deterministic universe.  You break the C&E system established by your God by sinning.  Free will allows people to sin.  That is in your Christian dogma, I am not making this shit up.

If you say the universe is deterministic, then all is predicated on the prior causes and effects, and your thoughts (wishes), as well as actions, are the result of some other cause or effect.  You could not possibly have a free will in the deterministic world, because everything in this world, including your wishes, and future actions, would be predetermined.  Look up the definition of determinism.  Everything is predetermined, including your moral actions.

That is why the concept of free will and determinism in the religious dogma is an oxymoron. 

If your 'free will' is predetermined, it is not 'yours' and it is not 'free'.  It is not free will, just a prior cause.
I cannot explain this any clearer.

A quadriplegic has free will to wish that he would walk across the room. But he can't do it because he is weakened by his Q problem. So, someone else moves him across the room as he wished.

Just because a person has free will to wish something, doesn't mean he can do it. And it is really like that for all people. God has placed the world in place so that they have many things that they can do. But really, it is God that carries out their wishes for them... all of them, simultaneously, all over the world. However, there are some wishes that God doesn't carry out for them. You can't literally jump to the moon, can you?

So, we live in a deterministic world. Yet we have free will to wish. And it is God Who carries out many of our wishes for us, both according to what we wish, and according to His will at the same time.

So, you can see how free will exists, and yet how  activity in life works deterministically. But this was explained in my previous post that you quoted. So you prove that you are a liar by suggesting that I am a heretic.

Btw, no pure random has been observed in nature. The only random is the fact that people are unable to follow the determinism in nature. Such random is not pure random. It is only weakness and ignorance.

ok you must study the history. After we can talk

I'd argue the exact opposite. If you don't believe in physics or that things are invented and brought into being by man, then turn off your cell phone etc, turn off your piped water and your power that comes from a man-made power station and go and live in a cave. If you get sick or hurt, there will be no doctor trained in the science of medicine to heal you.
On the other hand you can protest and make wars. You know, like ISIS.

I'm not trying to be mean, just to illustrate the point. This is all science, born of man. Just please don't say science comes from God.

If the church had not been there you could have done nothing of what you do today and surely, if it has existed for millennia, it means that it is built on a very strong rock. I call this rock Jesus Christ. then, if you want to be an atheist, please turn off your cell phone, phone, internet, even turn off the power and don't use light and water and go live in the caves. If you get sick or you get hurt, no one will treat you, but on the other hand you can protest and make wars, that has always been
There.

LOL.  You either have free will or you don't.  You feel the heat, don't you? Let me bring it home for you.

You cannot have C&E determinism/no randomness and free will at the same time.

You picked "no randomness", so you are a Christian heretic as you denied the existence of free will.  If you would pick an indeterministic model of the world, you would also lose because you would be against the dogma that says that God controls everything and that he pre-arranged everything for us.

Heads you lose, tails you lose.

The Christian dogma that says the world is predetermined by God and allows for a free will, contradicts itself. But what else is new. 
The whole thing is a poorly written soap opera.

Anyway, intrinsic randomness has been observed in nature. Next.

In our deterministic world, religious freedom is the norm. How? God takes our free choices (because we are too weak to do it) and activates the C&E that causes what we chose in this deterministic universe. God isn't limited by time. If necessary to make the universe match our choices, He goes back to the beginning and tweaks C&E to get it to happen today according to what we choose.

Quantum physics is a tiny beginning into God observation. The more of it we see, the more we see God.

You need to think more before you write.

In a deterministic world, your religious free will would not be possible.

In the real world, many instances of intrinsic randomness have been observed, both at quantum and macro levels.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.02176.pdf

You need to read more and write less.

You forgot the part where random - as in random mutations - doesn't exist. Cause and effect is in everything, and doesn't allow for random. No random, no evolution theory evolution. Or find me something in the billions of things that happen daily where there is no C&E. Everything is dictated by C&E.

The only random that exists in evolution is the random of people not knowing what the C&E of evolution is. Now listen very closely. Random is people not knowing. Get it? People not knowing... about evolution not existing because they think that there is random. And this is proven out by people not knowing that evolution doesn't exist... the only random that exists... people not knowing.

Agree with all of the answers here

You keep saying this, particularly on the evolution thread. Simple change, like-begets-like, and adaptation IS evolution. Particularly if you also mean survival of the fittest (meaning best fit to the circumstances). Don't make me bring my gazelles into it again.
Some religious people think that simple change, like-begets-like, and adaptation don't happen, and that everything was created by God 'as is'.
But you accept the facts of evolution, even if you don't call it evolution.

Q: Do you think that people can control their DNA?
A: No

Q: Do you think that people who were so healthy 7,000 years ago, that they lived for nearly 1,000 years couldn't change their DNA far easier than we can change ours... even on demand?
A: It is (was) not possible for humans to live past 130-150 or so.  Telomeres get shorter every time cells divide.  Eventually, they get too short and cells cannot divide. When cells cannot divide, they become inactive, and when your body cannot clean them up, you develop medical issues and eventually you die. https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/basics/telomeres/
The science of aging is improving, so eventually, we might extend the average human lifespan.  But it will not be by listening to music and relaxing. LOL.

S: Neanderthals were simply people who were hundreds of years old, and had changed their DNA from that of other people.
C: Neanderthals were our genetic cousins.  Their average lifespan was around 40-50.

Q: Why is a believer of evolution a religious person for believing it?
A: People who understand evolution do not have to 'believe' in it.  It is a fact to them. Do you believe in the keyboard that is in front of you?

BTW, I would not take advice on how to 'modify' your DNA from a guy who dropped out of his Catholic High School in Grade 11, in the early 1960s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lew_Childre

Do you think that people can control their DNA?
https://www.heartmath.org/articles-of-the-heart/personal-development/you-can-change-your-dna/
Google "humans can mentally change their DNA."

Do you think that people who were so healthy 7,000 years ago, that they lived for nearly 1,000 years couldn't change their DNA far easier than we can change ours... even on demand?
Genesis 5 - https://www.biblehub.com/niv/genesis/5.htm.

Neanderthals were simply people who were hundreds of years old, and had changed their DNA from that of other people. Current people are from a line of people who have lost the ability to radically change their DNA on demand, like their ancestors could.
http://www.jackcuozzo.com/

Believing in evolution is the thing that causes evolution to be in the class of religion. Why is a believer of evolution a religious person for believing it? Because there isn't any proof for evolution. There is only misapplication of the facts to the science fiction story of evolution.

Do you think the witness written testimony is more compelling than the DNA evidence?

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species?sort_by=field_age_timeline_maximum_value

Just order the 23andme kit, the results will tell you how much Neanderthal DNA you personally have.

You don't have to believe or not to believe in evolution.  It is an undisputed fact, regardless of what you say, think or believe.

Evolution is less real than many science fiction stories. Everything in evolution fits simple change, like-begets-like, and adaptation far better than it ever fit evolution. There isn't any proof for evolution that shows it is definitely evolution.

Now that evolution is gone, all we have remaining is God.

We have what-ifs all over the place. The point about BB is that BB Theory destroys the same BB that it is trying to make. How? BBT uses our math and physics to extrapolate backwards in time to get the BB. But the BB was different than what exists now. BBT says so. Since BB was diferent - BB math, time, physics, astronomy, etc. - you can't use our math and physics to extrapolate backwards. BBT destroys its own BB.

Now that BB is an unknown, what is left? God.

But to equate all of this with an evolution tree somewhat like Darwin's, has no proof. It's all a neat story, but it is totally against itself in reality. Like begets like, just as God made it.