Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1594. (Read 4670972 times)

When you deposit money into a bank, you are legally defined as an unsecured creditor. There is no "your money" after you deposit. When you deposit you have loaned the bank money. That money belongs entirely to the bank. You may then request for them to pay back some or all of that loan at a future date, but it is up to them whether or not to comply with that request. The advantages of paying you back is that it helps to maintain their reputation and ensure that they will have more creditors similar to yourself in the future. The advantage of not paying you back is, well, they have more money. This means that if the bank is in a situation where they have expectation of receiving more loans from creditors in the future than they will be incentivized to make good on their debt to you, but if they do not have such an expectation, than they will be incentivized not to make good on their debt to you. There are verious factors which can lead to a situation where they do not have an expectation that creditors will continue to loan them money in the future.

TLDR: don't ever loan a bank more money than is absolutely necessary.

Agreed, and I realize it's a work in progress I wasn't suggesting that CoinJoin is anywhere close to CN tech. The point was that until these edge cases are dealt with, it doesn't really matter.

Please forgive my shameless plug for the donations thread:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7914927

The monero devs are not paid by a premine like so may other alts.  Donations are a very small price to pay for that critical part of the design.

Here are the donation tiers... secure a spot in the history of this coin today:

Donators of 1,000 XMR - 6th dan monero superheros with 1 crate of Diamonds

Donators of 500 XMR - 5th dan monero superheros with piles of Rhodium

Donators of 200 XMR - 4th dan monero superheros with bars of Platinum

Donators of 100 XMR - 3rd dan monero heros with coins of Gold

Donators of 50 XMR - 2nd dan monero heros with a stash of Silver

Donators of 20 XMR - 1st dan monero heros with a hoard of Copper

Donators of 10 XMR - 1st kyu monero supporters with a bale of high quality hygiene paper

Donators of 5 XMR - 2nd kyu monero supporters with a wad of U.S. dollars

Donators of 2 XMR - 3rd kyu monero supporters with a holding of Goxcoins

Donators of 1 XMR - 4th kyu monero supporters with a bag of Darkcoins


On this link, you can also see who has earned one of these pretentious ranks!  Go put your name among the honored ones:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7914927

Unfortunately it's not possible to completely disable the ability to prove a transaction is yours. After all, your "balance" (for want of a better term) is really just the sum of all your unspent inputs, determined by stepping through the blockchain with your private key and determining, for each transaction, if it contains an output or input related to you. Thus, at its worst, a user could move funds to a new wallet and reveal their private key for the old in order to expose transactions. We have to accept this as a given.

Thus, we may as well provide the functionality in a way that doesn't compromise users on either side of the transaction. BUT - you are right, it is not a major focus right now. There are stacks of other things that have to be done before we get to this tooling, but it is on the radar.

Changes to increase resistance to attacks that attempt to reduce the anonymity set are under discussion (as evidenced here, but on IRC more), so we definitely aren't letting things stay as-is:)


Monero is at least 12 months away from anything close to this, and it's hard to determine when it is "safe enough" for this. My comment was just to point out that to the casual observers, very technical people, and even reasonably sophisticated attackers Monero is already "safe enough". To a more sophisticated attacker, especially the aforementioned 3LAs, there are so many edge cases we need to deal with that it will take time. But in its current form, it already blows CoinJoin out the water.

I cannot find any setting

I can't see any mention of xmr on your exchange, or your twitter.

Such as a certain 3-letter government agency? These are exactly the people we're trying to keep out. Otherwise we'd just stick to coin-join.

I would argue that the ability to "prove" your transaction is not hugely important. Such is the nature of cash. You probably wouldn't want to use cash to make public transactions, nor would you be inclined to use Monero.

We should focus on making XMR as untracable and unlinkable as we can (like cash), while continuing to improve usability, and worry less about these convenience features until the coin is more mature. I truly think it will be a mistake to try to make this a do-it-all, something-for-everybody currency.

For usability's sake, there should be a default ambiguity (that isn't zero. Maybe 1 or 2?). Setting specific levels of ambiguity should be an advanced or custom parameter that the average user shouldn't have to think about for common transactions.

Ok so lets say that you want to buy some raw milk with out getting black bagged in the middle of the night. You can send the funds, they can look to see if you sent them and then send the product. So if you cant prove that the funds were sent than it is harder to damage the reputation of the seller but you still can. If one seller is getting more negative feedback in general, even with none of those claims having proof, it will still send a signal to people that perhaps they should use a different seller.

Anyway yea obviously there are advantages to being able to prove that a payment was sent. I wont dispute that.

Because optional transparency is required against corruption.

Take the dev fund for example, dont you want to know what we received? This is a must have...

why not just sell into bitcoin if you want traceability/transparency?

Yes if you want to pay your bank or your taxes or run a business ect.. than i think it follows that you need transparent transaction. However it doesnt necessarily follow that one needs to be able to do these things with monero. That would be a matter of opinion.

A lack of knowledge is the natural state of man, nothing to be embarassed about. -- Gregory Maxwell

Honestly its a little bit embarrassing but some aspects of cryptonote go over my head. The last community i really got active in was nxt and it was great because i really was able to understand everything about how it worked down to a detailed level (on a level that very few other people do infact) and write about it and explain it to people. When it comes to nxt, since i truly understand how the mechanics work, my suggestions have value. Here i dont really feel that i understand cryptonote well enough to give valuable input. Hopefully through discussion i will understand it better and will be able to offer valuable suggestions that do help to work out problems like the one mentioned above.

Anon136, I understand that you are person with substantial vested interest in XMR and that you are providing your input here in this thread.  Excellent.  What I wonder is: How are you helping the process of getting that "mess all figured out?"  I ask with complete sincerity, without contempt.  I imagine that you donate funds of some kind to the dev team, and if so, that is also excellent.  I pose the question because it seems to me that those of us with interest in the success of XMR could possibly better organize and collaborate our efforts toward the common goal.  So, you seem to be a good person to discuss this with.

I apologize if all this has been hashed out already in this thread, but with 500+ pages and daily activity, subjects are somewhat easily lost in here!

I think part of the idea was simply to create more transactions at least during a transition period when the volume of transactions is low.

Surprisingly, the volume of Monero transactions is already not that low. It is about 3% of Bitcoin.

http://monerochain.info/charts/transactions
http://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions

I guess this is consistent with Monero now being #3 or #4 in exchange volume and a huge portion of all coin usage (especially altcoins) being exchange trading. http://www.coingecko.com/

The big decrease in the Monero transaction volume to early July was due to the pool dust bug getting fixed. We now seem to slowly be trending upward from that low.

EDIT: We are about 20-30% of LTC by transactions/day
http://ltc.block-explorer.com/charts

^This is not needed and will bloat the blockchain. In Monero a transaction is mixed with past transactions from the blockchain, so an empty block with just one transaction don't compromise the unlinkability at any way.

Just brainstorming here:
Would it be possible on protocol side to artificially add random transactions (with random amount) to each block to ensure a certain fill grade?

In the future, when the blocks are filled more than now, then some transparency transactions will not compromise the other anonymous transactions.

It already does - baked into the protocol is the ability to reveal the one-time key for a transaction in such a way that you will be able to confirm the amount and recipient for someone. What that will look like in practice remains to be seen, and we are looking at ways of doing this (such as a signed message for that tx) that literally can be made public without a reduction in the anonymity set.