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Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1632. (Read 4670972 times)

legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1015
I haven't had time to read the intervening posts, but here are a couple of followups to posts before I decided to leave this thread yesterday.


Note the alternative of a fixed nominal rate of emission means eventually the money supply stops growing which also has pathological divergence, e.g. you have to use transaction fees to fund mining which I had pointed out has pathological failure modes.

I'll sum up my rambling paragraph about tx fees funding decentralized mining which I posted yesterday then: I think Monero has even less chance than Bitcoin of funding decentralised mining from tx fees only, but there are other potential means of funding it which don't require a significant emission of coins if that is not desirable (I dont have an opinion on that). This is not necessarily a lesser of two evils problem, other solutions may be possible.

0.7% inflation means a doubling every 100 years of the supply. Is this "significant"?  I don't think so. This will secure the network and also not erode our wealth significantly.

I think the 0.7% figure is the right one. It's around that area though.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1015
-_-
blah blah blah, monero should not be overly inflationary, it must go like bitcoin, after mining 'stops', only transactions fees are rewarded to the miners, anything more will kill a currency, bitcoin model is well approved.

Nothing is approved. We have no idea what will happen to Bitcoin in a near future.

Nekomata, Tx fees are the kiss of death. Please do them.  Kiss (so much for your blah, blah)

I am starting to realize that it is probably wise not to rock the boat in this respect. It's probably not that big of a deal anyway and we could scare off untold numbers of people with talk of perpetual inflation of any sort.

Yes please don't differentiate yourself from Bitcoin. And who are you targeting anyway with your mining client, the nimcompoops here or the masses?

Whilst I am unsure about many of AnonyMint's ideas the inflation one is spot on and inline with many of our thoughts.

Using fees to support the network without a mint will not work. Monero needs an immortal inflation and this is in fact one of our selling points. It seems something between 0.5% and 1% will end up being optimum.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
I haven't had time to read the intervening posts, but here are a couple of followups to posts before I decided to leave this thread yesterday.


Note the alternative of a fixed nominal rate of emission means eventually the money supply stops growing which also has pathological divergence, e.g. you have to use transaction fees to fund mining which I had pointed out has pathological failure modes.

I'll sum up my rambling paragraph about tx fees funding decentralized mining which I posted yesterday then: I think Monero has even less chance than Bitcoin of funding decentralised mining from tx fees only, but there are other potential means of funding it which don't require a significant emission of coins if that is not desirable (I dont have an opinion on that). This is not necessarily a lesser of two evils problem, other solutions may be possible.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
I haven't had time to read the intervening posts, but here are a couple of followups to posts before I decided to leave this thread yesterday.

Ok so im reading the mini blockchain whitepaper. It appears to be a marginal improvement in some ways but it doesnt address the fundemental difficulty in scaling blockchains. The scalability problem doesn’t have anything to do with the size of the blockchain. It comes from the fact that each actor's transactions must be verified by all other network participants. Its the same math as network effects, except its a negative network effect.

Suppose actors make 1 transaction per minute.

1 actors = 0 verifications because he doesnt need to verify his own transactions.
2 actors = 2 transactions per minute. 2 * 2 actors = 4 transactions verifications. They dont need to verify their own so 4 - 2 = 2.  
3 actors = 3 transactions per minute. 3 * 3 = 9 verifications. they dont need to verify their own so 9 - 3 = 6.
4 actors = (4*4)-4=12
5 actors = (5*5)-5=20
ect...

0,2,6,12,20,30,42,56,72

This very quickly gets out of hand when you consider that there is a cost associated with verifying a transaction. even if that cost is infinitesimal.

Actors (users) are not verifying nodes, so you math is slightly incorrect in that respect.

However, your point remains valid that transactions scale O(NxN) by Metcalf or Reed's law. And verifying nodes probably don't scale by N actors.

However, Metcalf's law doesn't tell you the frequencies at which actors do transactions. Visa is currently at about 6000 transactions per second, so this can be verified with a single Intel CPU, so no problem for verifying nodes.

Scaling up to 6 billion people and micro transactions (more frequent transactions) might present a scaling problem. I've looked at Lamport signatures schemes that can verify 100,000+ transactions per second on a single i7 cpu. Since verifying nodes tend to be pools with considerably more resources (amortized over a large amount of hashrate), then a 10 - 100 cpu farm (or a Tilera 64 core cpu) is not unfathomable without destroying decentralization of pools.

Long-term the solution is simple. An ASIC for verification will scale sufficiently to 6 billion and micro transactions.

In short, no problem! Mini-block chain addresses the problem of block chain size and its impact on decentralization of mining. Cryptonite does not include anonymity however.

The real scaling issue.

He was arguing against a constant % rate of perpetual mining rewards (a.k.a. debasement). He conflated this with the exponential growth of the value and adoption of the coin.

This is not at all what I read.  I understood him to mean he favored a fixed constant block reward (ie 1 coin) as opposed to the exponential growth from a percent inflation (ie 1% total coins per x time).

The "1 coin per" scenario keeps rewards flowing while effectively reducing the value of the reward via the greater total coins while the percent ends up ramping up the coin supply on an exponential curve.

Was it not clear?

I see now that he was referring to an exponential growth of the money supply, and not an exponential growth of the rewards relative to the money supply.

I see no divergence problem with an exponential growth of the money supply if you are distributing it to yourselves (i.e. the broad usership). The money supply has been growing exponentially since the beginning of human history.

For one thing exponentially growing money supply is necessary to be consistent with the issuance of debt, because otherwise there is no means of paying the aggregately accumulated exponential growth in money needed due to interest compounding.

If we want to consider divergent outcomes and resilient strategies, note that any strategy might have a divergent outcome, e.g. even a feedback loop might carry with it some game theory for manipulation.

Note the alternative of a fixed nominal rate of emission means asymptotically the money supply stops growing (an exponential decline) which also has pathological divergence, e.g. you have to use transaction fees to fund mining which I had pointed out has pathological failure modes.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
My feeling is that Monero will hit 100$+ next year, Bitcoin will be at least around 2000$ so 100$ for Monero is defintly realistic
sr. member
Activity: 502
Merit: 251
Where are the rocket/train pics ? I demand some NOW !  Grin
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
doesnt it make ya'll a little uneasy when it goes up THIS fast?

XMR owner, not troll
sr. member
Activity: 784
Merit: 272
Monero is doing quite well lately. Slow growth... that is what we need. I hope we stay above 3 mBTC now Wink

feels nice and warm all of a sudden  Wink
Warm like our plush version of Luke the Moonshot? ;-)


warmer  Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Knowledge is Power
Why is the coin suddenly rebounding back today ?

No particular reason, it's always been a solid coin, it just has pump/dump periods like any other popular coin.
legendary
Activity: 3570
Merit: 1959
Why is the coin suddenly rebounding back today ?

Because of the news. Didn't you read the news? The market only ever moves on the news.

/thread

Get ready for ....(INSERT FUD HERE)

Wtf are you even talking about? It's up +27.4% from yesterday.

http://www.coinssource.com/monero-interview/
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
Why is the coin suddenly rebounding back today ?

Because of the news. Didn't you read the news? The market only ever moves on the news.

/thread

Get ready for ....(INSERT FUD HERE)

Wtf are you even talking about? It's up +27.4% from yesterday.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 500
Why is the coin suddenly rebounding back today ?

Because of the news. Didn't you read the news? The market only ever moves on the news.

/thread

Get ready for ....(INSERT FUD HERE)
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
Why is the coin suddenly rebounding back today ?

Because of the news. Didn't you read the news? The market only ever moves on the news.

/thread
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
Why is the coin suddenly rebounding back today ?
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Still wild and free
Poloniex is considering to add a XMR market.

Just some Trollbox news.

coinup: busoni@poloniex, XMR and poloniex... it's a love story now. Why don't you drop LTC parity for XMR one?

busoni@poloniex:
coinup, it's definitely an idea I'm considering.

coinup was me. Busoni said the LTC market is currently pretty useless to them. From a very practical perspective, they would make more money by switching to XMR.
This is kind of "boom" event if it happens I think, as many newcomers would realize XMR is indeed something big.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Note the unconventional cAPITALIZATION!
After taking a good look at this coin I'm really wondering why this hasn't been picked up by Cryptsy yet...

They probably don't know how to implement it

It is most certainly the fact the CN coins require implementation as well as the fact they are currently a support drain.

Seems Poloniex and HitBTC are battling it out in the CN space.  HitBTC added ALL the other CN coins.
legendary
Activity: 1321
Merit: 1007
After taking a good look at this coin I'm really wondering why this hasn't been picked up by Cryptsy yet...

They probably don't know how to implement it
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1000
After taking a good look at this coin I'm really wondering why this hasn't been picked up by Cryptsy yet...
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
Poloniex is considering to add a XMR market.


Poloniex is experiencing problems right now. I have been unable to access in the last 20 minutes.

I have no problems, trollbox and trading works like it should.
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
Poloniex is considering to add a XMR market.

Just some Trollbox news.

coinup: busoni@poloniex, XMR and poloniex... it's a love story now. Why don't you drop LTC parity for XMR one?

busoni@poloniex:
coinup, it's definitely an idea I'm considering.
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