Author

Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1669. (Read 4670972 times)

sr. member
Activity: 373
Merit: 250
except for Bytecoin, which is unprofitable for botnets due to lower emission rate

Except this is false. The emission rate adjusted for hash rate (difficulty) is higher than XMR, not lower.


Don't forget that XMR has twice the number of BCN blocks per day (due to lower time between blocks). So you have to consider daily emission rate adjusted for hash rate (difficulty) and denominated in dollars of course.

This results in XMR generating more revenue for the miners (around 10% increase according to my estimates). And Bytecoin exchange rate was even lower that it is now (6 satoshi vs. 8 satoshi). With 6 satoshi for BCN, XMR was a perfect target for botnet miners with 45% higher revenue than from BCN.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
except for Bytecoin, which is unprofitable for botnets due to lower emission rate

Except this is false. The emission rate adjusted for hash rate (difficulty) is higher than XMR, not lower.
sr. member
Activity: 373
Merit: 250
I've probably mis-formulated those paragraphs as they're consistent with one another. What I've meant under "botnet operators don't have to earn a margin" is that in case of virtually zero monetary costs (leaving out opportunity costs) they don't have to cover those to still profit. Opportunity costs only move the decision point for the botnets to exit XMR somewhere earlier.

In terms of economic decision making,  opportunity costs are usually equivalent to monetary costs. If you can rent your botnet out for $X per day (or do something else with it to earn $X), then it makes no economic sense to mine <$X per day of anything, you are better off renting it out. This has exactly the same effect on decision making as monetary costs of $X/day. More than $X of mining, you mine, less, you don't.

Logically the argument of not having to earn a margin just doesn't make sense, as described above. There is revenue level below which it makes no sense to mine, above which it does make sense to mine. This applies to every botnet and every other type of mining equipment.

That is exactly what I've been trying to tell you. And as there are botnets in XMR (see above), it is obviously lucrative to botnet mine it. Just have a look at the price of other CryptoNote coins (except for Bytecoin, which is unprofitable for botnets due to lower emission rate).

I'm not saying that XMR is doomed to go down. What I've mentioned was that there are more downward forces at the moment, so the price is unlikely to go up in the next few months.
sr. member
Activity: 373
Merit: 250
Regardless of our having fun with theory, I have first hand knowledge that two botnet operators are mining XMR as we speak. So whether or not you or I think it is profitable is a moot point.

Happen to know how fast those are?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Thank you for the great answer. I agree, it's not universally applicable to speak about botnets in terms of ROI, unless you probably rent a botnet, not own one.

Anyway, since there are opportunity costs for botnet owners, there is still a parity between the profit and the potential profit from alternative usage. This implies that my general considerations should hold. If it is more profitable to mine XMR over doing some other nice things with your botnet, you are going to mine. The situation may still change in case exchange rate decreases significantly, or block reward gets smaller.

And what's more, if the costs are virtually zero, it is profitable to sell XMR at any price (which is exactly what you've said). This only reinforces my idea that the selling side is fundamentally huge for XMR since botnet operators don't even have to earn a margin. Your example only moves the break-even point down to zero (while I assumed to be somewhere higher). Therefore, you only prove that it is unlikely that the coin is going to grow until the problem is resolved.

Your paragraphs entirely contradict each other. If there are actual costs (for renting) or opportunity costs (for alternative use, or even renting out) then costs are not virtually zero. Furthermore anyone who "doesn't earn a margin" has no incentive to engage in the activity, since that margin would be the profit derived from doing so.

Botnets may or may not be the lowest costs method of mining, I have no idea of the actual numbers, and that's the only way to answer the question. Either way there is little to no difference in the economics of botnets (maybe) mining XMR and botnets (maybe) mining any other coin, especially other cryptonote coins such as BCN.

I've probably mis-formulated those paragraphs as they're consistent with one another. What I've meant under "botnet operators don't have to earn a margin" is that in case of virtually zero monetary costs (leaving out opportunity costs) they don't have to cover those to still profit. Opportunity costs only move the decision point for the botnets to exit XMR somewhere earlier. In any case, your argumentation only proves my initial idea again that until it is unprofitable to botmine, XMR is likely to stay on the same price level.

And speaking about BCN, it's not a botnet target due to the flatter part of the emission curve. XMR is simply more profitable for mining due to the much later launch and the presence of the team around. You've been promoting your coin really well, so Monero should be the choice for botnet owners among all CryptoNote currencies. Anyway, as far as I can say from difficulty charts, other coins also have botnets coming in and out (e.g. duckNote).

And I wasn't trying to say that you are personally supposed to know the botnet hash rate, I've just given my estimates Smiley

Regardless of our having fun with theory, I have first hand knowledge that two botnet operators are mining XMR as we speak. So whether or not you or I think it is profitable is a moot point.

If so, they are apparently losing money over not mining BCN or something else, since XMR is hardly the most profitable coin to mine right now (and rarely is, outside of a few periods during price spikes). Why they would do that I have no idea. I guess running a botnet does not require an economics or accounting degree. Shrug.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I've probably mis-formulated those paragraphs as they're consistent with one another. What I've meant under "botnet operators don't have to earn a margin" is that in case of virtually zero monetary costs (leaving out opportunity costs) they don't have to cover those to still profit. Opportunity costs only move the decision point for the botnets to exit XMR somewhere earlier.

In terms of economic decision making,  opportunity costs are usually equivalent to monetary costs. If you can rent your botnet out for $X per day (or do something else with it to earn $X), then it makes no economic sense to mine <$X per day of anything, you are better off renting it out. This has exactly the same effect on decision making as monetary costs of $X/day. More than $X of mining, you mine, less, you don't.

Logically the argument of not having to earn a margin just doesn't make sense, as described above. There is revenue level below which it makes no sense to mine, above which it does make sense to mine. This applies to every botnet and every other type of mining equipment.

This also applies to BCN or any other coin (at least the ones with mining, but especially CPU+GPU coins with limited captive investment). Yes BCN has lower rewards (proportionate to coin supply at least) but it also has much lower difficulty, so you can mine proportionately more of it with the same equipment (botnet or anything else).

Honestly I don't really see much difference between XMR's price action any just about every other coin. It goes down when nothing is going on (and coins which have nothing going on for a long period of time eventually go down to near zero). When there is some sort of development that sparks speculative interest, it goes up. Look across the spectrum of hundreds of coins and you see almost exactly the same pattern. Who mines or whether they are a botnet or not doesn't really seem to matter much.

legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 5146
Note the unconventional cAPITALIZATION!
i lost every fucking coin in my wallet!!

Just keep your coins on an exchange, it's much safer for you.

Eek.  No no no no no.

But to each their own.  Using monero is simple.  I'm flying coins all between the exchanges and my wallet...  I'd never leave anything on an exchange unless I mean to trade it.

I mean...  haven't we seen what can happen??

sr. member
Activity: 373
Merit: 250
Thank you for the great answer. I agree, it's not universally applicable to speak about botnets in terms of ROI, unless you probably rent a botnet, not own one.

Anyway, since there are opportunity costs for botnet owners, there is still a parity between the profit and the potential profit from alternative usage. This implies that my general considerations should hold. If it is more profitable to mine XMR over doing some other nice things with your botnet, you are going to mine. The situation may still change in case exchange rate decreases significantly, or block reward gets smaller.

And what's more, if the costs are virtually zero, it is profitable to sell XMR at any price (which is exactly what you've said). This only reinforces my idea that the selling side is fundamentally huge for XMR since botnet operators don't even have to earn a margin. Your example only moves the break-even point down to zero (while I assumed to be somewhere higher). Therefore, you only prove that it is unlikely that the coin is going to grow until the problem is resolved.

Your paragraphs entirely contradict each other. If there are actual costs (for renting) or opportunity costs (for alternative use, or even renting out) then costs are not virtually zero. Furthermore anyone who "doesn't earn a margin" has no incentive to engage in the activity, since that margin would be the profit derived from doing so.

Botnets may or may not be the lowest costs method of mining, I have no idea of the actual numbers, and that's the only way to answer the question. Either way there is little to no difference in the economics of botnets (maybe) mining XMR and botnets (maybe) mining any other coin, especially other cryptonote coins such as BCN.

I've probably mis-formulated those paragraphs as they're consistent with one another. What I've meant under "botnet operators don't have to earn a margin" is that in case of virtually zero monetary costs (leaving out opportunity costs) they don't have to cover those to still profit. Opportunity costs only move the decision point for the botnets to exit XMR somewhere earlier. In any case, your argumentation only proves my initial idea again that until it is unprofitable to botmine, XMR is likely to stay on the same price level.

And speaking about BCN, it's not a botnet target due to the flatter part of the emission curve. XMR is simply more profitable for mining due to the much later launch and the presence of the team around. You've been promoting your coin really well, so Monero should be the choice for botnet owners among all CryptoNote currencies. Anyway, as far as I can say from difficulty charts, other coins also have botnets coming in and out (e.g. duckNote).

And I wasn't trying to say that you are personally supposed to know the botnet hash rate, I've just given my estimates Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Thank you for the great answer. I agree, it's not universally applicable to speak about botnets in terms of ROI, unless you probably rent a botnet, not own one.

Anyway, since there are opportunity costs for botnet owners, there is still a parity between the profit and the potential profit from alternative usage. This implies that my general considerations should hold. If it is more profitable to mine XMR over doing some other nice things with your botnet, you are going to mine. The situation may still change in case exchange rate decreases significantly, or block reward gets smaller.

And what's more, if the costs are virtually zero, it is profitable to sell XMR at any price (which is exactly what you've said). This only reinforces my idea that the selling side is fundamentally huge for XMR since botnet operators don't even have to earn a margin. Your example only moves the break-even point down to zero (while I assumed to be somewhere higher). Therefore, you only prove that it is unlikely that the coin is going to grow until the problem is resolved.

Your paragraphs entirely contradict each other. If there are actual costs (for renting) or opportunity costs (for alternative use, or even renting out) then costs are not virtually zero. Furthermore anyone who "doesn't earn a margin" has no incentive to engage in the activity, since that margin would be the profit derived from doing so.

Botnets may or may not be the lowest costs method of mining, I have no idea of the actual numbers, and that's the only way to answer the question. Either way there is little to no difference in the economics of botnets (maybe) mining XMR and botnets (maybe) mining any other coin, especially other cryptonote coins such as BCN.
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
i lost every fucking coin in my wallet!!

Just keep your coins on an exchange, it's much safer for you.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
ok, no trust in this coin anymore
my message deleted:
A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by a Bitcoin Forum moderator. Posts are most frequently deleted because they are off-topic, though they can also be deleted for other reasons. In the future, please avoid posting things that need to be deleted.

Quote
this coin is full shit and dead now
i lost every fucking coin in my wallet!!
somebody else spent those, cant use them anymore.

move on, dont lose your time and money


i moved to freshcoin

We don't control what the mods do. Promoting another coin in someone else's thread a big no-no, though.

I grabbed your wallet, you have a metric ton of small inputs. I understand it's hard not being able to withdraw your 1.656924551683 XMR, so if you can pm me your address I will send you 1.656924551683 XMR from my wallet and I'll keep your wallet to withdraw the dust at a later stage when the tx fee has reduced.
jr. member
Activity: 54
Merit: 257
To the pool ops:
We want to add a little pool description from the owners to our pool list.
This description should be a comma-seperated feature list. We will check if your allegations are true
Here are some examples:
"Weighing older shares lower to disincentivize pool hopping (slush's mining apporach), Multiple servers" -cryptograben.com
"stable pool, desktop notifications, instant online support" -hashinvest

Just write a PM or message a member of the team
copper member
Activity: 194
Merit: 0
Dear users,

We are happy to inform you that we implemented payment ID, which means that now you can transfer funds directly to exchanges!

Enjoy!

Regards,
Minergate


This is great improvement among other pools - and will allow many users to simplify monero use .

Also just try to withdraw directly to mintpal - all is ok.
donator
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1060
GetMonero.org / MyMonero.com
BLA BLA BLA

Prime example of how not to promote another coin Smiley
Move on thanks

i wlii give my wallet to devs
they can keep the coins if that will help to solve this bug.

Feel free to PM me the details, or send it directly to [email protected], or hop on to IRC (#monero-dev on Freenode), or PM the Monero Bitcointalk account, or send the details to the moderators of the /r/monero sub-reddit. It's practically impossible that you have lost coins unless you have forgotten your wallet password and don't have your mnemonic seed.
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
this coin is full shit and dead now
i lost every fucking coin in my wallet!!
somebody else spent those, cant use them anymore.

move on, dont lose your time and money


i moved to freshcoin
hands out of your ass grow! (Russian proverb)
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
And what's more, if the costs are virtually zero, it is profitable to sell XMR at any price (which is exactly what you've said). This only reinforces my idea that the selling side is fundamentally huge for XMR since botnet operators don't even have to earn a margin. Your example only moves the break-even point down to zero (while I assumed to be somewhere higher). Therefore, you only prove that it is unlikely that the coin is going to grow until the problem is resolved.

There are other CPU coins - all doomed or is XMR somehow special? Smiley And if XMR is still one of the most profitable coins, isn't this a bullish sign?
Who cares about botnet profits when they sell for cheap and there is enough interest and willing buyers to invest.
I would say most of the investors buy with bitcoin. Those with deep pockets who like the coin are certainly not going to be investing in the mining business but happily buy from those willing to dump  

+1.

Block reward dropping several % a month.
In 3 months it will be down to like 14 XMR. Doesn't seem like much but the effect will be noticable to miners.
As long as there are still buyers above 0.0025+ for 3 months coins will be largely dried up by then (and buyers there will be, despite this FUD, Monero is unique with an incredibly talented, professional, and consistent dev team).
I think we are all realizing this is a waiting game. Not a pump.
hero member
Activity: 565
Merit: 500
BLA BLA BLA

Prime example of how not to promote another coin Smiley
Move on thanks
hero member
Activity: 794
Merit: 1000
Monero (XMR) - secure, private, untraceable
^Goodbye and have a nice day.
full member
Activity: 211
Merit: 100
And what's more, if the costs are virtually zero, it is profitable to sell XMR at any price (which is exactly what you've said). This only reinforces my idea that the selling side is fundamentally huge for XMR since botnet operators don't even have to earn a margin. Your example only moves the break-even point down to zero (while I assumed to be somewhere higher). Therefore, you only prove that it is unlikely that the coin is going to grow until the problem is resolved.

There are other CPU coins - all doomed or is XMR somehow special? Smiley And if XMR is still one of the most profitable coins, isn't this a bullish sign?
Who cares about botnet profits when they sell for cheap and there is enough interest and willing buyers to invest.
I would say most of the investors buy with bitcoin. Those with deep pockets who like the coin are certainly not going to be investing in the mining business but happily buy from those willing to dump  
sr. member
Activity: 560
Merit: 250
"Trading Platform of The Future!"
We all know cbuchner1 and probably others are mining on ec2 with gpu+cpu.. I thought you were referring to only CPU mining.
Jump to: