Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - page 1668. (Read 4670614 times)

I agree with you. The important distinction is not really between botnets and anything else, it is between professional, commercial-scale miners, using whatever equipment they are using (including botnets) and everyone else (mostly small scale hobby miners or people who enable mining in the wallet because they are already running the wallet so they might as well).

All professional, commercial-scale miners will sell most of what they mine, and they will generally mine the most profitable coin or coins (at least, 100% of the truly professional ones will).

Even then, what matters is not so much whether the miners sell, it is the balance between buyers and sellers. If there are enough investors who would rather buy from professional miners than mine (often because it isn't their expertise or interest), the price will still go up. There is nothing wrong with specialization and therefore trade; it is part of any modern successful economy.

Buy at 320K sat...

Happens after every time I buy.  Sorry

Over 15k adding MP dumps and Polo dumps in last 10 minutes...

Speaking of which 6k coins just got dumped.

All this fuss about botnets seems to assume that if they werent mining XMR then all the remaining miners would be holding 90% of their coins and so the price would go up. Of course it would be ideal if everyone else was holding onto their coins and the price spiked up, so I could then sell some of my holding for a nice profit, but the world doesnt work like that.

Assume that the price will reach equilibrium when 80-90% of coins mined each day are sold within 48hrs, for the price to rise it needs more investors willing to buy those coins.

Check the bounty thread.

What hapenned?

[/quote]

maybe your post got deleted because it was completely useless, and likely untruthful.

"this coin is full of shit and dead now" - not going to waste key strokes responding to that
"i lost every fucking coin in my wallet someone spent those, can't use them anymore" - This is obviously your fault. You either gave your keys file and password to someone, or got hacked, likely with keylogger. This is by no means fault of xmr and could just as easily happened with any other currency.
"move on, don't lose your time and money" - awww, I would ask you to sell me your xmr, but someone already got them =)


Really though, I think you are lying.

All this fuss over 1.6 Monero of dust payments? As I understand it Bitcoin suffers from the same issue and before the min tx amount was introduced into Bitcoin dust payments clogged up Bitcoin too.

Anyways, I happy with all the progress being made. Thanks.

Yes, that is exactly what I considered.


Your estimates are incorrect, by a wide margin.

I have no idea why the difficulty of XMR is so much higher than BCN (and others), but it is. Apparently people want to mine XMR because they like the mascot or something, because it has nothing to do with relative profitability, monetary costs, opportunity costs, or any other economic considerations.

I actually consider this healthy for XMR, as commercial miners (whether they are using a botnet or any other equipment -- in case it is not clear I consider a botnet to be just another form of mining gear) motivated by immediate economics are more likely to sell, while miners who do so for non-economics reasons might be mining and holding, or just mining without really thinking about economics. Apparently XMR has a lot of these.

Don't forget that XMR has twice the number of BCN blocks per day (due to lower time between blocks). So you have to consider daily emission rate adjusted for hash rate (difficulty) and denominated in dollars of course.

This results in XMR generating more revenue for the miners (around 10% increase according to my estimates). And Bytecoin exchange rate was even lower that it is now (6 satoshi vs. 8 satoshi). With 6 satoshi for BCN, XMR was a perfect target for botnet miners with 45% higher revenue than from BCN.

Except this is false. The emission rate adjusted for hash rate (difficulty) is higher than XMR, not lower.

That is exactly what I've been trying to tell you. And as there are botnets in XMR (see above), it is obviously lucrative to botnet mine it. Just have a look at the price of other CryptoNote coins (except for Bytecoin, which is unprofitable for botnets due to lower emission rate).

I'm not saying that XMR is doomed to go down. What I've mentioned was that there are more downward forces at the moment, so the price is unlikely to go up in the next few months.

Happen to know how fast those are?

If so, they are apparently losing money over not mining BCN or something else, since XMR is hardly the most profitable coin to mine right now (and rarely is, outside of a few periods during price spikes). Why they would do that I have no idea. I guess running a botnet does not require an economics or accounting degree. Shrug.

In terms of economic decision making,  opportunity costs are usually equivalent to monetary costs. If you can rent your botnet out for $X per day (or do something else with it to earn $X), then it makes no economic sense to mine <$X per day of anything, you are better off renting it out. This has exactly the same effect on decision making as monetary costs of $X/day. More than $X of mining, you mine, less, you don't.

Logically the argument of not having to earn a margin just doesn't make sense, as described above. There is revenue level below which it makes no sense to mine, above which it does make sense to mine. This applies to every botnet and every other type of mining equipment.

This also applies to BCN or any other coin (at least the ones with mining, but especially CPU+GPU coins with limited captive investment). Yes BCN has lower rewards (proportionate to coin supply at least) but it also has much lower difficulty, so you can mine proportionately more of it with the same equipment (botnet or anything else).

Honestly I don't really see much difference between XMR's price action any just about every other coin. It goes down when nothing is going on (and coins which have nothing going on for a long period of time eventually go down to near zero). When there is some sort of development that sparks speculative interest, it goes up. Look across the spectrum of hundreds of coins and you see almost exactly the same pattern. Who mines or whether they are a botnet or not doesn't really seem to matter much.

Eek.  No no no no no.

But to each their own.  Using monero is simple.  I'm flying coins all between the exchanges and my wallet...  I'd never leave anything on an exchange unless I mean to trade it.

I mean...  haven't we seen what can happen??

I've probably mis-formulated those paragraphs as they're consistent with one another. What I've meant under "botnet operators don't have to earn a margin" is that in case of virtually zero monetary costs (leaving out opportunity costs) they don't have to cover those to still profit. Opportunity costs only move the decision point for the botnets to exit XMR somewhere earlier. In any case, your argumentation only proves my initial idea again that until it is unprofitable to botmine, XMR is likely to stay on the same price level.

And speaking about BCN, it's not a botnet target due to the flatter part of the emission curve. XMR is simply more profitable for mining due to the much later launch and the presence of the team around. You've been promoting your coin really well, so Monero should be the choice for botnet owners among all CryptoNote currencies. Anyway, as far as I can say from difficulty charts, other coins also have botnets coming in and out (e.g. duckNote).

And I wasn't trying to say that you are personally supposed to know the botnet hash rate, I've just given my estimates

Your paragraphs entirely contradict each other. If there are actual costs (for renting) or opportunity costs (for alternative use, or even renting out) then costs are not virtually zero. Furthermore anyone who "doesn't earn a margin" has no incentive to engage in the activity, since that margin would be the profit derived from doing so.

Botnets may or may not be the lowest costs method of mining, I have no idea of the actual numbers, and that's the only way to answer the question. Either way there is little to no difference in the economics of botnets (maybe) mining XMR and botnets (maybe) mining any other coin, especially other cryptonote coins such as BCN.