[ANN][YAC] YACoin ongoing development - page 132.

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: St.Bit on August 24, 2013, 06:11:10 PM

Nevertheless we lack of a good way to decide about things such as this. AFIK there hasn't been any real changes to Yacoin yet, but even such trivial things like a logo can't be decidet yet. We have to stick to the old one.As long as nobody changes anything viral this is ok, but if we ever want to be able to decide about controversial things we need to find a good way to do it. Polls in a forum are rigged, letting the dictator Joe rule the world or a scream battle in a threat aren't good ways to do it.
What do you think?

A good way to decide about logo is to let people who are graphic designers do it. In a same way that Joe certainly knows what code would
work better than me, in that same way people who are into graphic design know what logo would work better than the rest of you people.
There is no need to go mad because of that. Everyone opinions on everything matter but still, project where everyone decide on everything
with same vote weight is either doomed to fail or eternal struggle.

Put simply, do what you do the best and don't mess with others' business (it is counterproductive and waste of time / energy for both sides).

This was never solely about logos... This kind of arnachy isn't working.

We don't have a way to decide stuff on YAC, so we can't decide anything of importance. That is a problem, since the current anarchy style only works for small groups as now, but if this grows this would bring stagnation. There are like 100 possible voting mechanisms and if don't agree on one soon we won't be able to agree on one later when we face hard decisions when noone accepts a mecanism that isn't favouring his interrests then.

Without the ability to agree on changes we won't be able to innovate and be replaced by the next better YAC fork. We don't have the starter bonus like BTC, the developers of novacoin or the community like FTC, so we have to be innovative to survive.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Everyone opinions on everything matter but still, project where everyone decide on everything
with same vote weight is either doomed to fail or eternal struggle.

It doesn't matter how this will be ~~done~~ decided as long as it is accepted by the community. I wouldn't like equal weight either, but I rather have that than nothing. If we face a decision like f.e. reducing PoS or bigger PoS minimum we won't be able to agree on a way to vote on this, so we have to decide on the voting mechanism bevor we face such decisions. Not beeing able to decide would be the worst, and even Joe doesn't have the right to decide on such things alone either.

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 10:20:24 AM

Nah, this wouldn't be feasible. PoS mine only with your own full client. Electrum server should never see any of your private keys. It acts only as a data source and a broadcast node.

I don't see why this shouldn't be feasible.

I wouldn't use the 2nd privkey to store anything besides change and this really improves the security of my funds massively. Nobody can force me to decrypt my wallet or steal it. The funds of the 2nd privkey could be even seen as donation to electrum if you don't want to handle user funds.

sairon

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

One does not simply mine Bitcoins

Quote from: St.Bit on August 25, 2013, 10:06:01 AM

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 09:35:48 AM

Well, I had an Android wallet in mind, so it would complement your main wallet which is PoS mining.

That's a cool idea, actually I haven't thought of using my mobile for YAC as an addition at all. As long as it isn't used for PoS it's ok, but when it does there has to be some measures to prevent somone adding PoS blocks to his shorter chain.

Besides the obvious uses I think this could be used for some kind of 2factor autentification. I'm thinking of the following:

There are already multisig wallets so I use 2 signatures on my wallet. I sign it with yacoin-qt the first time and send the transaction to your server. I could even give you a copy of the 2nd privkey so you can sign the 2nd time and broadcast it when I log in. It's unlikely someone hacks my PC AND mobile without even knowing that they are related to each other.

A small bounty adress with some spare would be left aviable for a thief so your servers check it regulary and delete the 2nd key once the bait got stolen. Afaik there would be no way for the thief to know that the privkeys on my PC had been used to sign other adresses, right?

I love the possibilities with this.

EDIT: Does multisig actually work with PoS?

Nah, this wouldn't be feasible. PoS mine only with your own full client. Electrum server should never see any of your private keys. It acts only as a data source and a broadcast node.

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 09:35:48 AM

Well, I had an Android wallet in mind, so it would complement your main wallet which is PoS mining.

That's a cool idea, actually I haven't thought of using my mobile for YAC as an addition at all. As long as it isn't used for PoS it's ok, but when it does there has to be some measures to prevent somone adding PoS blocks to his shorter chain.

Besides the obvious uses I think this could be used for some kind of 2factor autentification. I'm thinking of the following:

There are already multisig wallets so I use 2 signatures on my wallet. I sign it with yacoin-qt the first time and send the transaction to your server. I could even give you a copy of the 2nd privkey so you can sign the 2nd time and broadcast it when I log in. It's unlikely someone hacks my PC AND mobile without even knowing that they are related to each other.

A small bounty adress with some spare would be left aviable for a thief so your servers check it regulary and delete the 2nd key once the bait got stolen. Afaik there would be no way for the thief to know that the privkeys on my PC had been used to sign other adresses, right?

I love the possibilities with this.

EDIT: Does multisig actually work with PoS?

sairon

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

One does not simply mine Bitcoins

Quote from: St.Bit on August 25, 2013, 09:19:05 AM

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 09:06:36 AM

Anyway, anyone interested in Electrum implementation for YaCoin? You know, the lightweigh wallet: http://electrum.org/. This would certainly help resolve the slow wallet start-up times (as the server will start once and run "forever").

It would kinda kill the security benefits from PoS if everyone uses a centralized datasource for their clients. On the other hand is YAC so small that there wouldn't be many people using it.

Well, I had an Android wallet in mind, so it would complement your main wallet which is PoS mining. Also a fast client for the desktop when you don't have the time to wait for you main wallet to start (or if you want separate your non-PoS coins, instead of reservebalance in yacoin.conf). There are some use-cases.

I think I've already managed to modify electrum server for YAC, however, the client will be a greater challenge.

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 09:06:36 AM

Anyway, anyone interested in Electrum implementation for YaCoin? You know, the lightweigh wallet: http://electrum.org/. This would certainly help resolve the slow wallet start-up times (as the server will start once and run "forever").

It would kinda kill the security benefits from PoS if everyone uses a centralized datasource for their clients. On the other hand is YAC so small that there wouldn't be many people using it.

sairon

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

One does not simply mine Bitcoins

Anyway, anyone interested in Electrum implementation for YaCoin? You know, the lightweigh wallet: http://electrum.org/. This would certainly help resolve the slow wallet start-up times (as the server will start once and run "forever").

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 06:07:35 AM

So everyone would have to use Coin Control...
Also, imagine I was doing the voting coin giveaway. What if I decided I don't like you or your address? You simply would not get any voting coins.

I don't like centralization.

You would have no chance to fake something.

This has to be on an non moderated thread and if there is one legit adress without an transaction from you we would nullify your whole thread. After a while you would have to publish priv.keys and we go thru the tread. Everyone that didn't get a coin would scream andit's trivial to check if there are more outgoing than adresses in the thread.

BTW: CC is esential for any kind of voting via adresses and not donations.

EDIT: After publishing privkeys new txt are of course non valid for voting.

sairon

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

One does not simply mine Bitcoins

Quote from: St.Bit on August 25, 2013, 06:00:32 AM

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 05:54:16 AM

Quote from: St.Bit on August 25, 2013, 05:46:03 AM

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 05:39:02 AM

I was thinking about either letting only the top 100 or so addresses vote (as they hold the most YAC they should have the right to decide - here only a signed message would suffice instead of coins (but that kinda ruins their anonymity as they would have to post it somewhere on the forums)), or let everyone vote (without any restrictions, as they can be very easily circumvented).

So the biggest 10 wallests split up in order to make up most of those 100 adresses. Although this would favor my vote, I think it is a bad way to let the rich decide what the people want.

OK, so IMHO the only remaining feasible option is to simply set up two addresses and which one gets the most YAC before voting deadline wins.

Reed my previous post(#972). A giveaway voting thread.

So everyone would have to use Coin Control...
Also, imagine I was doing the voting coin giveaway. What if I decided I don't like you or your address? You simply would not get any voting coins.
I don't like centralization.

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 05:54:16 AM

Quote from: St.Bit on August 25, 2013, 05:46:03 AM

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 05:39:02 AM

I was thinking about either letting only the top 100 or so addresses vote (as they hold the most YAC they should have the right to decide - here only a signed message would suffice instead of coins (but that kinda ruins their anonymity as they would have to post it somewhere on the forums)), or let everyone vote (without any restrictions, as they can be very easily circumvented).

So the biggest 10 wallests split up in order to make up most of those 100 adresses. Although this would favor my vote, I think it is a bad way to let the rich decide what the people want.

OK, so IMHO the only remaining feasible option is to simply set up two addresses and which one gets the most YAC before voting deadline wins.

Reed my previous post(#972). A giveaway voting thread.

sairon

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

One does not simply mine Bitcoins

Quote from: St.Bit on August 25, 2013, 05:46:03 AM

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 05:39:02 AM

I was thinking about either letting only the top 100 or so addresses vote (as they hold the most YAC they should have the right to decide - here only a signed message would suffice instead of coins (but that kinda ruins their anonymity as they would have to post it somewhere on the forums)), or let everyone vote (without any restrictions, as they can be very easily circumvented).

So the biggest 10 wallests split up in order to make up most of those 100 adresses. Although this would favor my vote, I think it is a bad way to let the rich decide what the people want.

OK, so IMHO the only remaining feasible option is to simply set up two addresses and which one gets the most YAC before voting deadline wins.

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: sairon on August 25, 2013, 05:39:02 AM

I was thinking about either letting only the top 100 or so addresses vote (as they hold the most YAC they should have the right to decide - here only a signed message would suffice instead of coins (but that kinda ruins their anonymity as they would have to post it somewhere on the forums)), or let everyone vote (without any restrictions, as they can be very easily circumvented).

So the biggest 10 wallests split up in order to make up most of those 100 adresses. Although this would favor my vote, I think it is a bad way to let the rich decide what the people want.

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: Thirtybird on August 24, 2013, 08:27:23 PM

and only count one donation per unique address.

I have like 30 unique addresses, so do I have 30 votes? Wait a week and I'll make it 3000 untill we vote on my logo.

Since these are all directly from exchanges there is no way to tell whether they are from 30 people or just me. The only way this could be done in a non fakeable way would be to weight votes by size of the sending wallet,but that's a very bad way to make decisions as community if "poor" people can't vote.

We could start a vote-giveaway threat from one special adress and only count votes if it had ever resived directly from that wallet. As long as we are voting over trivial stuff like logo,name,... there are little to no incentives to steal a vote privelege. Now it should be easy to get a vote, but we have to limit that in the future to prevent interest groups to get too much power.

I think this is urgent to agree on a safe way to make desissions bevor we face decisions where everyone has strong opinions and only agrees a voting mechanism that favours his interrests. A bad deciding mechanism is still better than not beeing able to decide at all.

Should I start a new topic and write some of my ideas on this?Would anyone support this idea?What do you think?

sairon

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 250

One does not simply mine Bitcoins

Quote from: Thirtybird on August 24, 2013, 08:27:23 PM

Quote from: St.Bit on August 24, 2013, 06:31:36 PM

Quote from: alenevaa on August 24, 2013, 06:19:56 PM

Quote from: St.Bit on August 24, 2013, 06:11:10 PM

What do you think?

I think we can live with the old logo until someone invents a new awesome one! One that everybody likes Roll Eyes

Absolute consensus is an illusion, I won't like another logo once I've spend hours designing it. We will have to stick to the old one untill we found absolute consensus or a good way to vote on such issues.

My question was actually about finding a good way to vote on such things. ? ??

You've heard the phrase "vote with your wallets"? What is something nearly everyone has who uses YAC? What about set up a domation fundraiser which will double as a vote on the logo? The YAC would get donated to something worthwhile (why do I see the discussion being on how to vote on what the voting donation organization will be??) and the logo with the most votes wins. Something like a donation amount of 1YAC, and only count one donation per unique address. Not sure how technically feasable this is, but it's at least an idea

I was thinking about either letting only the top 100 or so addresses vote (as they hold the most YAC they should have the right to decide - here only a signed message would suffice instead of coins (but that kinda ruins their anonymity as they would have to post it somewhere on the forums)), or let everyone vote (without any restrictions, as they can be very easily circumvented).

Thirtybird

hero member

Activity: 693

Merit: 500

Quote from: St.Bit on August 24, 2013, 06:31:36 PM

Quote from: alenevaa on August 24, 2013, 06:19:56 PM

Quote from: St.Bit on August 24, 2013, 06:11:10 PM

What do you think?

I think we can live with the old logo until someone invents a new awesome one! One that everybody likes Roll Eyes

Absolute consensus is an illusion, I won't like another logo once I've spend hours designing it. We will have to stick to the old one untill we found absolute consensus or a good way to vote on such issues.

My question was actually about finding a good way to vote on such things. ? ??

You've heard the phrase "vote with your wallets"? What is something nearly everyone has who uses YAC? What about set up a domation fundraiser which will double as a vote on the logo? The YAC would get donated to something worthwhile (why do I see the discussion being on how to vote on what the voting donation organization will be??) and the logo with the most votes wins. Something like a donation amount of 1YAC, and only count one donation per unique address. Not sure how technically feasable this is, but it's at least an idea

Joe_Bauers

hero member

Activity: 802

Merit: 1003

GCVMMWH

Quote from: ilostcoins on August 24, 2013, 06:56:18 PM

I prefer this logo as well. Looks a bit cleaner and simpler.

The other logo isn't too horrible though IMO. Having either as icon is better than using another coin's icon.

Haha - well, I think we've all at least agreed that we don't like some logo. Personally, the one above is my favourite.

ilostcoins

sr. member

Activity: 274

Merit: 250

I prefer this logo as well. Looks a bit cleaner and simpler.

The other logo isn't too horrible though IMO. Having either as icon is better than using another coin's icon.

St.Bit

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: alenevaa on August 24, 2013, 06:19:56 PM

Quote from: St.Bit on August 24, 2013, 06:11:10 PM

What do you think?

I think we can live with the old logo until someone invents a new awesome one! One that everybody likes Roll Eyes

Absolute consensus is an illusion, I won't like another logo once I've spend hours designing it. We will have to stick to the old one untill we found absolute consensus or a good way to vote on such issues.

My question was actually about finding a good way to vote on such things. ? ??

Beave162

hero member

Activity: 809

Merit: 501

Quote from: alenevaa on August 24, 2013, 06:19:56 PM

Quote from: St.Bit on August 24, 2013, 06:11:10 PM

What do you think?

I think we can live with the old logo until someone invents a new awesome one! One that everybody likes Roll Eyes

You yourself apparently like the one in my profile. 'Ɏ' is in your signature. Mess with the colors and background to whatever, but the Ɏ is the symbol!

Beave162

hero member

Activity: 809

Merit: 501

Quote from: St.Bit on August 24, 2013, 06:11:10 PM

Quote from: Beave162 on August 24, 2013, 05:36:38 PM

No good lord no. How is that stupid 'Yak' imagery not killed off yet?

I don't like it either, but aren't there more important things to do ATM?

Nevertheless we lack of a good way to decide about things such as this. AFIK there hasn't been any real changes to Yacoin yet, but even such trivial things like a logo can't be decidet yet. We have to stick to the old one.As long as nobody changes anything viral this is ok, but if we ever want to be able to decide about controversial things we need to find a good way to do it. Polls in a forum are rigged, letting the dictator Joe rule the world or a scream battle in a threat aren't good ways to do it.
What do you think?

You need to understand the value of marketing. You want to have a discussion on how many big businesses had to change their name and image for marketing purposes? It is important. It will have to change.

Topic: [ANN][YAC] YACoin ongoing development - page 132. (Read 379983 times)