Topic: BetcoinPoker.com Betcoin.ag-Big Tourneys-BONUS-Freerolls, Ring Games, Real Poker - page 63. (Read 367790 times)

A scam?  One thing we always see is the word scam being used very freely here at Bitcointalk.  We can't control if some bitcointalk members think other bitcointalk members are trolling or not.  You are addressing a player on our website and Betcoin at the same time with these comments and the player certainly doesn't speak for Betcoin. 

Dooglus, we have close to 1,000 players daily on Betcoin, over 100 tickets and 50-100 live chat customer support tickets daily.  Our parent company and owners overlap with BetCris and the WPN and have been in business over 16 years.  Customer service can always be improved and will continue to be improved, but we are surprised by your use of the word scam. 

With that said, we are reviewing your particular ticket in detail still and as stated would have the resolution in full by Monday at the latest.  On another note, the traffic and player volume has increased to its highest point over the last 2 weeks, which we are very happy to report. 

I respect everything you're saying and hope you continue to follow where things go from here and share your honest opinions.  I suspect this may be only the beginning.



Theyve had a lot of success by discrediting and ignoring critics in the past.  It's worked with me a couple times as well as well as plenty of others (including some who did deserve to be discredited and ignored).  So it makes sense they think it will work again, I wonder how long before they realize it's not going to work this time. 

This is the first time I've worried about betcoin being a scam.

One thing all scam site threads have in common is that negative criticism, no matter how valid, is rejected as "FUD" or "trolling".

Is that the best you can do? How about actually addressing the concerns people have raised rather than claiming that there is a "discussion" going on, while discounting the views of anyone who disagrees with you?

Meanwhile the dice continue to roll my way:



and I'm having no trouble at all withdrawing my winnings:



So if it is a scam, at least it is "paying" at the moment...

Please guys, if you're legit, step up your game and get on top of the customer support situation.

First time in awhile, I have come here and found this thread on the second page!  The trolls aren't keeping up with their marketing efforts clearly. 

Are you guys running the BitcoinTalk 6 Max NL Showdown this weekend?   I didn't see that in the lobby and definitely like the setup of this tournament. 

If I play a $100+9 mtt, and it charges me 285mbtc+25mbtc , then I should be paid 17% of 25mbtc


Betcoin only uses 1 or 2 average prices per day, probably to keep things simple for themselvesf. 

The methods you're explaining are unnecessarily complicated imo, but if they wanted use up to the minute prices I'd be fine with that too.

Whatever method or system they choose to use, I'm cool with.  Just explain how it works and honor it.


I believe Betcoins system is a good one in theory, they just fail to execute it perfectly (it would be ridiculous to expect them to) There will always be bugs to deal with, there's simply no way around it.

The big problem is not that these problems exist or why they happen - it's how they deal with them after they happen.  Dishonestly. 



For the record: I think that the actual technical issue which they refuse to aknowledge even exists has something to do the system not reporting tournament fees the same for WPN tournament re-entries or late registrations.  Either that or certain tournaments are just not reported at all. 

Not sure how you inferred that, but I can assure you that I was not at all implying that you are preventing anything from happening. And for that matter, nor was I implying that Betcoin or anyone else was preventing anything from happening neither. The only thing I meant or implied by what you quoted me on was only exactly what I wrote. I can bullshit a lot here and in other parts of the forum as well as outside it. But when it comes to serious topics I try to choose my words carefully.


That's your viewpoint and opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. Who am I or anyone else  to tell you what you are supposed to think. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you though. And I can only speak for myself, but when I make posts endorsing the merits and services Betcoin offers, I am literally doing just and only that - endorsing the merits and services of Betcoin and nothing more. And I stand by all the posts I've made doing so. Other people may have had different experiences with Betcoin then me obviously, but I can only go with my own personal ones.

How Betcoin takes that or how you or anyone else takes it including other businesses, I have no control over. I'm not going to include a disclaimer with every endorsement I make itemizing the things I am not endorsing. Yes, I get what you are saying, but I just don't see it that way from my standpoint. If hypothetically, I wanted to convey that I endorsed any kind of mishandling of issues that you've brought up, then I would just do so in plain terms.  Like I said, I can only speak for myself.

And no need to try to infer or figure out any mysterious meanings in any of my posts. Just take them literally as is. Trust me. 

Based on the price when you bought in of Bitcoin to USD or of USD to Bitcoin?  See that's where the problem lies....somebody is going to be losing something somewhere because of Bitcoin's volatility.

Hyperbole:  If the price of bitcoin dropped from $400 to $0.25 would you expect the WPN to pay you (17% rake back on a $40 fee) 27.2 BTC = $6.80 in rake back or would you expect to be paid back (17% rake back on a 0.10BTC fee) 0.017 BTC = $0.00425 in rake back?....See it goes both ways so somebody will lose somewhere with that reasoning....see the complications?

Sometimes there's not an answer that's both satisfying and simple to relay, especially when dealing with somebody who feels wronged.

Keep in mind, Betcoin finds that people complaining about their lack of knowledge and unethical behavior is "pretty cool".  Yet they are banning the players participating in this "pretty cool" discussion from their site.

Why?

Adress each of my issues and every other players (other than scammers, cheaters, etc) that you have chosen to ignore, apologize for your mistakes and pledge to be more transparent in the future.

Double your rake.

Next thanksgiving at this time I bet you have more than 20 players online.  (WPN has over 8k, theyre out there)

We will keep you updated!



We are getting a lot of questions PM on at Betcoin.ag regarding the full schedule so we wanted to share the full schedule here:

All payouts are in the bitcoin value of course at Betcoin Poker. 

Your rake back would be based on the price when you bought into the tournament.

I agree it's not a simple situation and mistakes are to be expected.  I understand and expect the mistakes.  Every site I've ever played at has had issues which I had to contact support and ask them to fix.

The problem is not the honest mistakes Betcoin makes, it's that they consistently handle them dishonestly.

Also don't forget about the actual rake being half of the rake of our competitors!

Pretty cool that we are adding a new page everyday on our thread and getting some very good click through from a great discussion!  Keep it up everyone as all feedback suggestions and recommendations are welcome anytime!

Excellent points cjmoles.  Just to clarify a couple things we are working to get more data from WPN play and that will come complete with full leaderboards, prizes for rankings and other great promotional perks and privileges.  We are limited by what is provided at this time but that will change in the near future. 

Our VIP system overall provides a very aggressive rakeback, lossback and betbet return to our great players that is tough to find at any fiat casino at this time.  Anybody that starts tables which is quite a few people now we actually lose bitcoin on because we are giving 100% rakeback and a percentage of rakeback for the VIP and the affiliate if they have one.  You won't find this opportunity anywhere else for that reason, but we want to give our players the greatest possible value.  Lastly, for tournaments we pay the full percentage based on your VIP level. 

The value of playing at Betcoin is extremely high when compared to competitors and we will always work to keep this great advantage for our great players. 

Well, my rake back at ACR and BCP is 17% and that's USD, but my rake back at Betcoin is still only 10% (it changes according to VIP level but it doesn't at ACR or BCP) and that's bitcoin.  

But, say for example, I played the $500 + $40 tourney at Betcoin, but when I bought in, bitcoin was worth $400.  Then, when the tournament ended 12 hours later, bitcoins value had dropped back down to $250.  Where would the value of my rake back be pegged?  While at the same time, if I bought in at ACR (not really possible) for the same amount, my rake back would still be pegged at the original buy-in value.  See where the confusion lies?  It really is more complicated....I was just trying come up with an example to illustrate some of the dynamics that have to be dealt with between the two markets.

Junko I really do appreciate you taking the time to respond to everything.

I also don't blame you for thinking I might just be butthurt and seeking revenge (or something else).  I would too.  To be honest, I am pissed at them on a personal level, I feel they do owe ME money and they have also lied to ME after gaining my trust and since then been extremely disrespectful to ME.  They also have lied to others about ME.

With that being said, I'm putting a great deal of thought into keeping my posts as objective as possible, fully transparent and focusing only on what I can prove.  I realize I'm not successful 100% of the time.

Most other sites have a formal dispute process and are willing to involve a impartial third party, that would make this much easier - but it's not an option.

I want to address one of your thoughts:


I agree with what you are literally saying here, we should always s be looking for a way to resolve conflict in as positive a way as possible and learn from our mistakes.

But it seems that you are implying that I am preventing this from happening. 

Betcoin has demonstrated a pattern of dishonest, unethical behavior over a significant period of time.  They have made no indication that they plan on handling things differently in the future. They have yet to admit to anything I've accused them of.  The only time they attempted to deny was with a reply which I proved to be a blatant lie. 

By making posts endorsing them or thanking them for their services tells Betcoin that you think what they're doing is OK.  It also tells other similar businesses (which you may use already or in the future) that behaving like they have is OK.

If Betcoin were willing to admit their mistakes and learn from them, I would be rooting for them to succeed as much as anyone.  (I was rooting for them, even during and after many of these issues happened)

 

Other than the table starter promotion which affects at most two players per table at Betcoin Cash games, they offer the same rake back at all games.  There are no "different rake back programs".  (unless they introduced something very recently)

When you register for a WPN tournament (which are in USD), you get a pop up letting you know how many chips (mbtcs) you will be charged before confirming.

Most of the confusion would not exist if Betcoin were to keep a financial history for tournaments played and make it available to both players and support.  I suspect that even support doesn't have access to the WPN tournament history of any individual player.  This is why it's so difficult to prove they are under paying their rakeback, especially for players who have comp points coming to them for other reasons (non WPN mtts) - it took me months before I was 100% sure I was being underpaid. 

This is also why its so wrong of them to use this kind of logic on a player who believes they have been underpaid:

Part of the confusion, and the part that's hardest to explain, is that the WPN operates in US dollars.  When we deposits bitcoin into the main WPN skins, it is immediately converted to US dollars and the value remains stable.  But, when we  deposit at Betcoin, our deposits remain bitcoin and the value fluctuates with the US dollar.  So, it is difficult to pin a specific value on the rake back because it will fluctuate with the price of bitcoin.  The confusion is caused by the differences in the two markets and how the two markets try to compensate for Bitcoin's volatility.

I say that it's only part of the confusion because the other part is that Betcoin also offers a higher rake back on there "in house" games than the WPN provides for their network games.  I suspect that Bitcoins volatility, along with the differing rake back programs, is the reason why we can't play in the network cash games from Betcoin anymore.  It's just too complicated to state simply.

Most people on Betcoin aren't poker players, they are bitcoin fans looks for free shit.  The problems don't affect them because they don't care about a fair environment or competent support...they just want free pennies!  And they view people like you and I, who complain about the myriad of problems Betcoin has that are retarding their growth, as potential roadblocks to their free pennies.  Betcoin, of course, is facilitating that.  Look at how they ignore the questions raised...they say "oh gee looks like SOME PEOPLE aren't happy, guess we may have to stop giving people free shit" and all of the freerollers lose their shit in broken english.  Of course all of this buries the valid questions that are raised (which Betcoin still has yet to answer or even address).

Just look at "pimp".  ZERO WPN MTTs played.  This means that he's only there to play freerolls.  Or that he's multiaccounting.  Either way, these are the types of players that Betcoin caters to...the people who give them zero action.  Because it's the easy way out, far easier than admitting to their mistakes and trying to fix them.  It's the most insane backwards business strategy I've ever seen and only further my suspicion that Betcoin is run, at least on a day-to-day bases, by people who legit don't know what they are doing.

Since your beef seemed directed at Betcoin, I purposefully stayed out of it all since I'm sure Betcoin is capable of fighting its own battles in their own way. That and I didn't want to directly muck up your course of action by posting comments which might be taken as trolling. But since you appear to be calling me out by quoting me, I'll go ahead and bite. (Not in the mood to do anything else right now since my Dallas Cowboys lost ugly today.)


How do you feel about the issues which have been brought up over the past several pages of this thread?

I do think pretty much all of the issues you and others have brought up are very valid. It's no joke anytime reputations, integrity and money is involved/at stake.


Did you read them?

Yes.

From the no collusion freeroll, a cheater getting a second chance, BBJP funding, missing status points, ddos cheaters, noncompensations for funds lost due to cheaters, the wpn satty points issue, let's see, what else, deleted posts/threads on the betcoin.ag community forums, shill posts in the community forum and here on bitcointalk, how all these issues have been handled by support via tickets, support chat, community chat, community forum threads/posts.

There may be more so forgive me if I'm missing anything else.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I gather, you don't have a problem as much with the actual mistakes made, but moreso with how they are/were handled by betcoin staff,  reps and support. At least that's what I remember reading in some of your posts.


Do you not believe they happened?  Or do you think it's acceptable?

I do believe the issues you brought up occurred. The initial mistakes themselves, I can accept. How these initial mistakes were subsequently handled, I do find somewhat dubious in some aspects. So I would lean towards the way some things were handled as being unacceptable.  In other cases, without going into detail, I have no opinion either way.

However, just because I do find the way some things were handled to be on the unacceptable side, it doesn't mean that going forward that these blemeshies can't be learned from, improved upon, remedied and taken care of with a more positive resolution for all those concerned if and when other similar or nonsimilar issues crop up in the future. That's how I reconcile my continued play at Betcoin.ag aside from all the positive things that they offer their players.


Not trying to attack you, just not understanding how or why so many are choosing to endorse Betcoin because they they don't have issues with withdraws/offer WPN tourneys/have low rake etc...while acting as if none of the problems within the thread even exist.  If you don't believe me, or think theyre no big deal I would understand, but why not say so?  If you want to do some good for Betcoin, prove I'm wrong.

How and why I am I choosing to endorse Betcoin other than because of all the pros and in light of the issues you bring up? I'll repeat what I just wrote above: However, just because I do find the way some things were handled to be on the unacceptable side, it doesn't mean that going forward that these blemeshies can't be learned from, improved upon, remedied and taken care of with a more positive resolution for all those concerned if and when other similar or nonsimilar issues crop up in the future. That's how I reconcile my continued play at Betcoin.ag aside from all the positive things that they offer their players.

Form whatever judgments and opinions of me for continuing to give Betcoin my action as you wish, anyone is certainly entitled and welcome to do so.

As far as proving you wrong, I feel no compelling need or desire whatsoever to do so. If your intentions with this whole endeavor are genuinely in the name of helping out the poker community and not because you are butthurt, then more power to you. If your crusade helps those for whom the issues you bring up about Betcoin are a dealbreaker as far as choosing a poker site where they will be happy, then good on ya too. Respect.

That's it Betcoin, keep ignoring all the real problems and real feedback here and keep coddling all the ignorant and greedy few that are sucking up to you hoping for a free handout. Betcoin is like a small child playing peekaboo. If Betcoin closes their eyes and ignores all the real problems then the problems don't exist.