Topic: BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot - page 12. (Read 17897 times)

I have been trying unsuccessfully to get in touch with anyone at Betsoft on jasonort's behalf.

In the meantime we have published a warning recommending that people avoid playing all Betsoft games.

The article is long, so if you want the TLDR version with our reasoning:

1. Documented discrepancies in their progressive jackpot payouts between the same game on different casinos, and even the same game with different coin sizes. Some jackpots appear to be impossible to win.
2. jasonort's experience in not being paid a legitimate progressive jackpot win.
3. The revoking of their Alderney license in 2014.
4. Their RNG audit is worthless because it has a specific disclaimer that says that they did not test the results from any games that actually use the RNG.
5. While looking into this I found that back in 2010 they were busted running a cheating keno game at Absolute Poker that gave players no chance of winning at all. I was unaware of this before now.

I have posted this on Betcoins forum.  Not happy with them and how they're representing my feelings of their handling of the situation.


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15328859

Spread the word, make sure players know what's going on.

Tell Betcoin that they should be helping Jason get paid,  if they want to keep your trust.

The more I dig the more I doubt these Jackpots are anything more than a gimmick.

Progessive Jackpots at Betcoin total over $5 million USD. Where is it?  If they were all hit tomorrow, what would happen? 

Why is there no RTP posted anywhere on any Betsoft game anywhere?
Why is there such a lack of transparency? 

im interested as i think this is valid jackpot how so betcoin.ag profile is not flagged red yet.? by trusted members of this forum
regards.
-Katerniko1

if u accept the bonus on betcoin you get the bonus money on the side and only that amount has a play through and you can do what ever with your real balance unless it changed

Also worth noting is plo8monster (mod and official "site pro")

When the accusation was first made, he said this in the chat:

I think it's been proven that the denomination excuse is not a valid one, this should prove that the free spin excuse is also not valid:


From the paytable of greedygoblins, another Betsoft Jackpot Game:


By clarifying the jackpot can not be multiplied, we conclude that free spins that are a result of a max bet are eligible to win the jackpot.   

In Glam Life, there are no such clarifications.

Thanks jasonort, that rules out the "capped bonus" excuse given by the casino support then. The reason I asked is that there are a small number of games where the provider blocks you from winning a progressive jackpot while you're playing with free bonus money.


I worked out the jackpot contribution percentages myself using the network monitor in the Chrome browser. You can do it with Firebug or Fiddler as well. All you have to do is log in to the site you're checking and load the game. Then watch the network inspector - every few seconds it will query a Betsoft server for the current jackpot values. This is how they are updated in game. If you pick a time when no-one else is playing you can see that the same jackpot values are coming back with every update. Now make a spin and you will see a proportion of your bet amount gets added to the jackpot and you can work out the percentage. This works both in fun and real mode on Betsoft games (though the jackpot amounts are different of course).


Not that I have seen. I have emailed them a few times about the issues I have discovered and they never reply. You can usually work out the reset value by looking at the data or graph for a jackpot that has been won a few times and seeing what it consistently drops to when it is won.

Betsoft jackpots are specific to individual casinos or small groups of casinos run by the same operators. Bovada for example have different jackpot amounts at all their casinos instead of pooling them together. I don't think that Betsoft have any single pooled progressives that all their casinos contribute to. I don't know anything about Betcoin.ag but I am surprised that they have multi-million dollar jackpots on individual games given that they are a relative unknown in the casino industry. I assume that they must be pooled with some other casinos if they are legitimate, because I can't imagine that they have either turnover or funding that is anywhere near Bovada's for example.

One thing that bugs me about this is that if you're Betsoft and you don't want anyone to win your jackpot, wouldn't it be easier to just not let anyone spin five yachts in a row than to allow it and underpay them? This is why I can't rule out that they may be simply staffed with incompetent programmers who make very buggy games.

jasonort: I forgot to say that in my experience of several years of helping people in disputes with casinos, Curacao eGaming are utterly useless as a regulator. They are a rubber-stamping organisation, used primarily by operators trying to hide their identities and avoid paying tax in their home countries, that won't do anything to protect player interests or mediate in the event of a dispute. Their offical dispute resolution procedure is basically "sort it out yourself with the casino".

Where did you find the info listed on jackpot contribution?

Is there anywhere they have basic terms for progressives?  Like what it resets to, a list of Jackpots and which sites contribute to them?

This was played with my own money that was deposited.  I never accept any deposit bonuses because of all the play through requirements.  I promise you this was not a doctored photo.  Reference the chat log where Betcoin staff acknowledge 5 yachts on the pay line.

Hi there, I am the guy who runs CasinoListings.com and wrote the jackpot tracker you referenced there. I have been specifically looking into Betsoft jackpots over the past 9 months or so due to a complaint that a member of our forum posted about some of them being unwinnable. I have found some very interesting and disturbing stuff including a number of "bugs" and discrepancies with their games and jackpots that lead me to believe that, at a minimum, their software QA is awful. I have focused mainly on the game Good Girl Bad Girl because it appears to be the most popular and widely played Betsoft game. Specifically:

• Jackpots on the exact same game, Good Girl Bad Girl, and the same coin size can be won with monotonous regularity (several times a week) for a couple hundred dollars at Slots.lv (sister site of Bovada), but have never been won and are worth 6 figures at Bovada, where the volume of play is higher.
• Several jackpots that are regularly won for small amounts "spiked" during February-March this year and rose to several thousands at Bovada, only to all be won in a short space of time and resume their normal pattern. If it happened on one jackpot you could chalk it up to luck, but it happened on several independent jackpots at exactly the same time. This indicates that something changed in the game's RNG, code, or reel structure, and it was later changed back.
• The jackpot contribution for Good Girl Bad Girl is being calculated incorrectly. The game allows you to play in Good Mode, Bad Mode, or both. If you play one or the other, 1% of your total bet goes to the jackpot. But if you play both, your total bet is doubled but so is the jackpot contribution so that 2% goes to the pot instead of 1%.
• There are similar concerns about several other Betsoft games, across many other casinos (i.e. its pretty apparent that the casinos are not to blame)

My post here has data and graphs that illustrate these problems clearly.

Betsoft games have separate jackpot pools depending on the coin size wagered. So if the OP was playing a 50c coin size and bet max, they should win the jackpot pool that is specific and separate to 50c wagers. i.e. the amount shown at the top of the game. If you go into the game and change the coin size you will see the jackpot amount change. It is not the case that they need to be betting maximum credits and the maximum coin size to qualify for the jackpot.

This is probably not a bonus-related issue where the casino caps the amount you may win after a bonus is claimed. In those situations, the games are usually not aware of the bonus and they pay out normally. When the player withdraws they are paid the maximum allowed under the terms then the remaining balance is zeroed. You should never claim deposit bonuses with win caps, they are sucker offers. What I would like to know is for the OP to clarify whether they played with money they deposited, or whether they were playing with a "free chip" or "no deposit bonus".

So if the OP's screenshot is real and this did occur while he was betting the maximum number of credits (125) and he was playing with real money that he deposited, I believe he should be paid the jackpot in full. There is nothing on the paytable or game rules about the jackpot not being paid in free spins mode. That is bullshit of the highest order. As to why the game did not pay it, we can only speculate. It could be another Betsoft "bug" or it could be deliberate. Or this could all be a photoshopped scam (sorry OP, I've seen them before).

The reaction of the casino disappoints me because they should be looking after their customer. It will cost them nothing if this jackpot is paid out as it is pooled money paid for by players. In fact it would be great publicity for them if one of their payers won it. I am genuinely baffled by their unprofessional responses, they don't seem to be the sharpest tools in the shed.

One thing I know for sure is that Betsoft are a shady company. Someone already posted information about their licensing disqualification in Alderney. The support rep claiming that Betsoft is found at all the top online casinos is full of it. Most of the top tier internet casinos do not offer their games. They seem to have concentrated recently on marketing their games to crappy affiliate-run casinos (i.e. cheap, underfunded) and non-regulated bitcoin only casinos that have a high risk of disappearing overnight. After seeing the numbers from our jackpot tracker and now this post I have absolutely no confidence that they are running fair jackpots, either by design or by accident or sloppy programming.

Well, I won one of those jackpots at Bodog (Bovada) and I began getting paid through WU within the week....it took sometime to get totally paid off because they had a $3,000 dollar weekly withdrawal limit.  However, the jackpot I won wasn't as large as yours but it was pretty substantial.  If this win was legit, I'm sure it'll be paid....If the game was played with promotional bonus credits and not a clean unattached deposit, then you might want to read the promotional credit terms and conditions  <---  That's a common oversite that negates many "big wins." Read the terms and conditions when taking any kind of bonus, deposit bonuses included, at any online casino. Anyway, if the win's legit, you'll be paid.

Sad thing is this doesn't surprise me at all hearin this news.  If they dont pay OP i hope he burns betcoin rep thats only bc of all the shills to the ground so something good comes from it. Gonna happen some day anyway im sure.

damn thats sick sure looks like you won the JP to me

I have to say it does look pretty scammy how Betcoin.ag refuse to take any responsibility in the matter and instantly attribute it to "being on Betsoft servers". Unless this "mistake" was a regular occurrence they should be backing you up on this when speaking with Betsoft. At the very least they need to contribute something and make it right. Unfortunately long term you have to avoid these sorts of sites and software, because they can all too easily be rigged against you like this.

Here is the chat transcript with support on the night of my wager.  Betcoin Aidan's opinion is that this should be paid.  He was aware that this was a bonus spin..


Chat started on 15 Jun 2016, 03:52 AM (GMT+0)
(03:52:14)   *** Jason joined the chat ***
(03:52:14)   Jason: I just got 5 Yachts in a row on Glam Life with Max Bet. Should have won Jackpot, but only got 1000 credits.
(03:53:20)   *** Betcoin Aidan joined the chat ***
(03:53:21)   Betcoin Aidan: Please kindly create a ticket so I can escalate it to management. Once completed please provide me the ticket number. https://www.betcoin.ag/node/add/ticket
(03:56:00)   Jason: Could we please handle this ASAP? This should have been a major jackpot win. I'm really upset. Ticket #57771
(03:56:12)   Jason: I have a screenshot of the win. How can I get it to you?
(03:56:28)   Betcoin Aidan: please upload it to imgur for example and post the link in the ticket
(03:56:37)   Jason: 1,007,249.91 Jackpot
(03:58:02)   Jason: http://imgur.com/UQxeVni
(03:58:10)   Betcoin Aidan: post it in the ticket please
(03:58:11)   Jason: Please take a look at it. I will post to ticket as well
(03:59:50)   Jason: Posted. Is there a manager on duty right now?
(04:00:12)   Betcoin Aidan: I am waiting for an answer, but it might take a while
(04:00:35)   Jason: Any chance they can join the chat?
(04:00:46)   Jason: Did you see screenshot?
(04:00:58)   Betcoin Aidan: Yes but you won't hear anything new, that has to be checked in casino backend by him
(04:01:43)   Jason: Why would it not pay Jackpot?
(04:02:02)   Betcoin Aidan: how could I know that yet
(04:02:08)   Betcoin Aidan: are you sure you made a max bet?
(04:02:28)   Jason: OK sorry. Yes check the bet line in the screenshot.
(04:04:45)   Jason: Any chance I could get the manager to call me? My cell phone number is 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX
(04:05:23)   Betcoin Aidan: I understand the hype, but my hands are tied at the moment. Once I receive an answer, I will inform you
(04:05:35)   Jason: OK
(04:16:04)   Jason: Were you able to get in touch with management?
(04:18:37)   Betcoin Aidan: not yet, I am sorry
(04:19:23)   Jason: This is horrible.
(04:20:37)   Jason: Has anyone at your casino ever won a major jackpot?
(04:20:59)   Betcoin Aidan: yes that happened a month ago or so
(04:21:06)   Jason: How much?
(04:22:15)   Betcoin Aidan: I am not really aware, was not during my shift
(04:23:15)   Jason: When you look at the picture do you think I should have won jackpot? I know it is just your opinion, but what do you think?
(04:30:12)   Jason: Still there?
(04:30:31)   Betcoin Aidan: Yes, I am sorry but I am serving 8 people at the moment
(04:31:03)   Jason: Sorry.
(04:47:43)   Jason: When you get a minute could you please look at the imgur screenshot? I would really value your opinion on whether you think this is a jackpot winning spin.
(04:48:23)   Betcoin Aidan: I am not aware with that slot, that is why I can't say.
(04:48:38)   Jason: OK
(05:18:00)   Betcoin Aidan: I investigated on my own and I see that you made the 5 yachts hit on a free spin round. I might mislead you but free spins are not counted as a maximum bet as it does not take anything from your balance.
(05:19:02)   Jason: Are you serious? I had Max bet on the table. Where does it say anything in the rules about that not counting?
(05:19:15)   Betcoin Aidan: As I said, I might not be correct
(05:19:32)   Betcoin Aidan: it is a tricky situation here and it is not me who got the 100% accurate and final word on that
(05:19:59)   Jason: When do managers arrive to your location?
(05:20:27)   Betcoin Aidan: they are not at my location, our office is in a different country
(05:20:46)   Jason: Where is the office? What time zone?
(05:21:03)   Betcoin Aidan: London
(05:21:14)   Jason: OK
(05:38:25)   Betcoin Aidan: my shift is now over, but I wrote a big review on this situation and forwarded it to our internal channel. It will be reviewed absolute prior once a supervisor pop up.
(05:38:56)   Jason: ok thank you
(05:39:19)   Betcoin Aidan: You are most welcome. This is quite rare situation so it might take some time, please keep that in mind
(05:39:56)   Jason: Maybe 1st time ever anyone hit 5 yachts
(05:40:32)   Betcoin Aidan: the problem is not the 5 yachts but the freespin round, as internally it counts as a 0 bet
(05:40:34)   Betcoin Aidan: since it is free
(05:40:58)   Betcoin Aidan: but my personal opinion is that it should be counted as max
(05:41:04)   Betcoin Aidan: since it was triggered with max bet
(05:41:05)   Jason: I have looked everywhere in rules. I does not way that
(05:41:14)   Jason: even on BetSoft Website
(05:41:33)   Jason: Does not say that free spins on max bet don't count
(05:42:29)   Betcoin Aidan: I understand and trust me I did everything I can. Now that is in my superiors hands and I believe and hope the resolution will be quick
(05:44:29)   Jason: Thank you Aidan
(05:44:36)   *** Jason has rated the chat Good ***
(05:48:10)   *** Betcoin Aidan left the chat ***
(06:53:45)   *** Jason left the chat ***

Check out https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/glam-life-jackpot

They track the jackpot on bodog for same game and list a seperate jackpot for each denom.

Pretty strong evidence you got at least one bullshit response from both Betcoin and Betsoft.

Here is the email I sent to Curacao eGaming which licenses BetSoft.  I also copied BetSoft Support and Betcoin.ag Support.

Jason Ortmeier <[email protected]>
Attachments12:41 AM (15 minutes ago)

to complaints, support, support

To whom it may concern,

I am alleging unfair gaming practices by one of your licensees, BetSoft gaming.  I placed a wager on a slot machine "The Glam Life" through Betcoin.ag who uses Betsoft software for this game.  The wager was the maxiimum bet allowed for the denomination (.50 credits) which was 5 bets per line x 25 lines, for a wager of 125 credits.  The spin resulted in winning 4 bonus spins.  On the 4th bonus spin the game showed 5 Yachts on the payline.  According to the pay table for this game this should have resulted in winning the jackpot.  I wagered the maximum bet, received the required combination of symbols (5 Yachts) on the payline,  but instead of a jackpot I received only 1000 credits.  I have received 2 explanations for this from BetSoft via Betcoin.ag's support staff.  The first said that the spin was ineligible for the jackpot because it was a bonus spin.  The evidence I use to refute this claim is the pay table which has no such language.  Nowhere does it state that a bonus spin is ineligible to win the jackpot.  Further the fact that I was paid 1000 credits proves that it was a maximum bet as the paytable shows that 5 yachts pays 200 credits x the number of bets per line.  In this case 5 (which is the maximum allowed).  200 x 5 = 1000 credits, thus proving a max bet.  The second explanation stated that a jackpot only occurs if the max bet is made at the highest denomination (1.00 credits), and I was only playing at the 0.50 denomination.  This is easily refuted by looking at the game itself.  The jackpot amount changes with the denomination played.  At the 0.50 denomination the jackpot is roughly 1,000,000 credits (See screen capture for exact disputed amount).  When the denomination is increased to 1.00 the jackpot doubles to approximately 2,0000,000 credits.  This clearly refutes the second explanation as the jackpot is variable by the denomination played, and not requiring a bet denomination of 1.00.  I am asking you to intervene in this matter and prove that you are a reputable gaming authority that does not tolerate unfair gaming practices by its licensees.  I have included screen captures for both the spin in question and for the stated pay table at the time the wager was made.

Respectfully yours,

Jason Ortmeier
2 Attachments
 

I did some digging when I saw OPs post on Betcoin and how aggressively comments were being censored.  It's shocking how non-transparent Betsoftgaming software is. As few explanations, terms or conditions as possible.  The game in question has a $3m progressive, but don't explain where it comes from or how it's won other than "5 yachts on max bet".  



Pretty unreal.

As usual, Betcoin makes everything as shady as possible by attempting to cover it up and make OP feel like shit for being such a crybaby.  I've personally had over 50 posts removed in the last 2 days and will continue to post all the facts below on their own forum.

Here are the facts:

• Glamlife is a progressive jackpot game provided by Betsoft Gaming
• When changing from one denomination to another, the Progressive Jackpot also changes. This indicates that each denomination has it's own independent Jackpot.
• Currently, for the Highest denomination Betcoin advertises the Glam Life Progressive Jackpot as 3,872.26 BTC (3,872.26 BTC, current value of ~$2.9 Million USD) as Seen here:

• Jason was playing with .5 mbtc denomination and the Jackpot displayed 1,007,249.91 (503.6249 BTC current value of ~$383,000)
• The only requirement that can be found anywhere within the game, Betcoin.ag or Betsoft.com/ is "5 Yacht Icons on Max Bet wins Jackpot"
• At .5 denomination Jason placed the maximum bet of 5 credits x 25 lines = 125 credits or 0.062 BTC (~$45 at the time).

  3 Scatters Triggered 4 Extra Spins (note: no multiplier or anything to indicate that alternative reels were in play)
   On thefinal spin, 5 Yacht Symbols landed on Payline 1.

• Jason was paid 1000 credits (0.5 BTC) for the spin.
• Betcoin.ag staff deleted all posts in the thread that had criticism of either Betcoin or Betsoft, posted the following message relayed from Betsoftgaming and locked the thread.  I only archived one of the deleted comments: https://archive.is/eE55g

• Since locking the thread there has been no response to the appearance of each denomination having its own seperate Jackpot.
• Betcoin Moderator Plo8s comment on Issue (It's standard for him to defend Betcoin with nonsense):

-Betcoin Andrews response on deleted comments via private chat:

• About Betsoftgaming

-In March 2013, Betsoft was granted a Category 1 license from the Alderny Gaming Control Commision (AGCC) : http://www.betsoft.com/media/betsoft-gaming-announces-completion-alderney

-July 2014, AGCC ordered Betsoft to "cease to offer gambling specific software to Category 1 eGambling licensees, Category 2 eGambling licensees and Category 2 Associate Certificate holders" pending the result of a hearing set for October 2014
https://www.gamblingcontrol.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AGCC-Notice-R...

-October 2014, 3 days before scheduled hearing, Betsoft surrendered their license and rights to provide class 1 e-gaming to casinos located within AGCC jurisdiction:
https://www.gamblingcontrol.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Digitus-notic...