Did mike get tagged out?
Still here
that email was changed over a week ago. You won't getrid of me that easy
Mike
Topic: Bitstarz Removes 3.45 Btc Balance According to Breaking Bonus Terms - page 5. (Read 11042 times)
October 27, 2016, 11:55:20 PM
Still here
that email was changed over a week ago. You won't getrid of me that easy
Mike
October 27, 2016, 11:22:26 PM
Quote
Nice post, I think most players will be able to relate one way or another.
I hope Bitstarz pays the most attention to this part:
Quote
request withdraw approved and after one night semi-sleepless night
This is standard reaction for players who win a lot of money. Especially new players. It's not any one casinos fault, it's the fault of all casinos that do something scummy (like your max bet rule) and then justify it by saying "he lots of other casinos do it"
It doesn't have to be like this. The money in a players account doesn't belong to you until they lose it.
Even though there's nobody to fine you or shut you down if you steal it, every time you don't pay a player it will cost you eventually. Avoid bonus abuse by making bonuses that cant be abused instead of abusing players.
Hi there,
Again, there's a reason we have a max bet rule, and there's a reason other ones have it as well,
which we've discussed in this thread numerous times.
And again, we are getting a technical solution for this, it's just taking time to get it developed
but it's underway. That means that we'll be the first to actually have a technical solution for
the max bet rule, as far as I'm aware, and this problem won't happen.
Mike
October 27, 2016, 08:51:41 PM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
update as promised: request withdraw approved and after one night semi-sleepless night (dont know why my eyes dont stay shut after 3.30am), requested amount got credited into my wallet. I checked my document required by kyc (uploaded same day on my registration) and still pending... glad the withdraw when smoothly.
regards to continue playing at Bitstarz, to be honest, after so much hype on this 'bonus of death' and some other withdraw (and missing/stolen issue) read here and other sites, i hardly having any confident to play again, not knowing if i am the next victim, although i felt my play there was lucky... got introduced by askgambler and tried but ended in semi happy way.
i have nice experience with the game i played with bitstarz and until such negative feedback is resolved, i dont think i will come back. I will be watching this thread closely.
i am newbie by the way
Nice post, I think most players will be able to relate one way or another.
I hope Bitstarz pays the most attention to this part:
Quote
request withdraw approved and after one night semi-sleepless night
This is standard reaction for players who win a lot of money. Especially new players. It's not any one casinos fault, it's the fault of all casinos that do something scummy (like your max bet rule) and then justify it by saying "he lots of other casinos do it"
It doesn't have to be like this. The money in a players account doesn't belong to you until they lose it.
Even though there's nobody to fine you or shut you down if you steal it, every time you don't pay a player it will cost you eventually. Avoid bonus abuse by making bonuses that cant be abused instead of abusing players.
October 27, 2016, 08:21:47 PM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
update as promised: request withdraw approved and after one night semi-sleepless night (dont know why my eyes dont stay shut after 3.30am), requested amount got credited into my wallet. I checked my document required by kyc (uploaded same day on my registration) and still pending... glad the withdraw when smoothly.
regards to continue playing at Bitstarz, to be honest, after so much hype on this 'bonus of death' and some other withdraw (and missing/stolen issue) read here and other sites, i hardly having any confident to play again, not knowing if i am the next victim, although i felt my play there was lucky... got introduced by askgambler and tried but ended in semi happy way.
i have nice experience with the game i played with bitstarz and until such negative feedback is resolved, i dont think i will come back. I will be watching this thread closely.
i am newbie by the way
you are lucky if you withdrew and not scammed by them but dont push your luck much there are many trusted casinos around and you can easily find them via this forum try them not this one
October 27, 2016, 08:19:20 PM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
update as promised: request withdraw approved and after one night semi-sleepless night (dont know why my eyes dont stay shut after 3.30am), requested amount got credited into my wallet. I checked my document required by kyc (uploaded same day on my registration) and still pending... glad the withdraw when smoothly.
regards to continue playing at Bitstarz, to be honest, after so much hype on this 'bonus of death' and some other withdraw (and missing/stolen issue) read here and other sites, i hardly having any confident to play again, not knowing if i am the next victim, although i felt my play there was lucky... got introduced by askgambler and tried but ended in semi happy way.
i have nice experience with the game i played with bitstarz and until such negative feedback is resolved, i dont think i will come back. I will be watching this thread closely.
i am newbie by the way
October 27, 2016, 06:43:14 PM
Did mike get tagged out?
October 27, 2016, 02:50:25 PM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
Alright mike, why didn't you let this guy slide?
we do not keep track of how many people that are breaching that rule
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
What's the thought process when deciding who gets to keep their winnings a who's winnings become Bitstarz revenue.
Assuming this guy is telling the truth about having 3 bitcoin confiscated, your bonus of death rule just added 3 btc to your revenue. We need to start keeping track here...
Like i said before, letting some slide seems like the obvious best strategy for you to confiscate as much as possible...depending on which ones you let slide.
I suppose all we can do as players is keep telling you how scummy it is. over and over.
Just seems like very little of this is making sense. They're handling this like complete amateurs in my opinion, failing to handle this like professionals. Just based on that I'd just leave this site be and not play at all. Of course a ton of sites have such rules but the way they are enforced at BitStarz is just nuts.
The sad thing is, Bitstarz probably deserves more trust than any other softswiss casino that I've come across...
They're that bad? Great thing I haven't played much at those sites... Quite sad indeed
satoshigames.io - doxed a player and trolled him hard for exploiting a bonus glitch https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.16130930
fun-casino - took months to convince their site wasn't decentralized or provably fair and they still advertise it like that other forums https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1522493.new#new
and they are all slowly collecting dox from any player that has a decent sized cashout or no deposit cashout + have millions usd worth of betsofts fake progressives - disaster in the making
Unbelievable. Site owners doxinh players? What kind of madness is that. Makes me lose faith. Just proves how it's important to stay alert and careful. Never blindly trust anything. I've even started to read the terms when I register sites. Didn't feel the need for that in the past.
October 27, 2016, 02:36:29 PM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
Alright mike, why didn't you let this guy slide?
we do not keep track of how many people that are breaching that rule
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
What's the thought process when deciding who gets to keep their winnings a who's winnings become Bitstarz revenue.
Assuming this guy is telling the truth about having 3 bitcoin confiscated, your bonus of death rule just added 3 btc to your revenue. We need to start keeping track here...
Like i said before, letting some slide seems like the obvious best strategy for you to confiscate as much as possible...depending on which ones you let slide.
I suppose all we can do as players is keep telling you how scummy it is. over and over.
Just seems like very little of this is making sense. They're handling this like complete amateurs in my opinion, failing to handle this like professionals. Just based on that I'd just leave this site be and not play at all. Of course a ton of sites have such rules but the way they are enforced at BitStarz is just nuts.
The sad thing is, Bitstarz probably deserves more trust than any other softswiss casino that I've come across...
They're that bad? Great thing I haven't played much at those sites... Quite sad indeed
satoshigames.io - doxed a player and trolled him hard for exploiting a bonus glitch https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.16130930
fun-casino - took months to convince their site wasn't decentralized or provably fair and they still advertise it like that other forums https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1522493.new#new
and they are all slowly collecting dox from any player that has a decent sized cashout or no deposit cashout + have millions usd worth of betsofts fake progressives - disaster in the making
October 27, 2016, 01:53:37 PM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
Alright mike, why didn't you let this guy slide?
we do not keep track of how many people that are breaching that rule
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
What's the thought process when deciding who gets to keep their winnings a who's winnings become Bitstarz revenue.
Assuming this guy is telling the truth about having 3 bitcoin confiscated, your bonus of death rule just added 3 btc to your revenue. We need to start keeping track here...
Like i said before, letting some slide seems like the obvious best strategy for you to confiscate as much as possible...depending on which ones you let slide.
I suppose all we can do as players is keep telling you how scummy it is. over and over.
Just seems like very little of this is making sense. They're handling this like complete amateurs in my opinion, failing to handle this like professionals. Just based on that I'd just leave this site be and not play at all. Of course a ton of sites have such rules but the way they are enforced at BitStarz is just nuts.
The sad thing is, Bitstarz probably deserves more trust than any other softswiss casino that I've come across...
They're that bad? Great thing I haven't played much at those sites... Quite sad indeed
October 27, 2016, 01:52:26 PM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
Alright mike, why didn't you let this guy slide?
we do not keep track of how many people that are breaching that rule
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
What's the thought process when deciding who gets to keep their winnings a who's winnings become Bitstarz revenue.
Assuming this guy is telling the truth about having 3 bitcoin confiscated, your bonus of death rule just added 3 btc to your revenue. We need to start keeping track here...
Like i said before, letting some slide seems like the obvious best strategy for you to confiscate as much as possible...depending on which ones you let slide.
I suppose all we can do as players is keep telling you how scummy it is. over and over.
Just seems like very little of this is making sense. They're handling this like complete amateurs in my opinion, failing to handle this like professionals. Just based on that I'd just leave this site be and not play at all. Of course a ton of sites have such rules but the way they are enforced at BitStarz is just nuts.
The sad thing is, Bitstarz probably deserves more trust than any other softswiss casino that I've come across...
October 27, 2016, 01:47:43 PM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
Alright mike, why didn't you let this guy slide?
we do not keep track of how many people that are breaching that rule
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
What's the thought process when deciding who gets to keep their winnings a who's winnings become Bitstarz revenue.
Assuming this guy is telling the truth about having 3 bitcoin confiscated, your bonus of death rule just added 3 btc to your revenue. We need to start keeping track here...
Like i said before, letting some slide seems like the obvious best strategy for you to confiscate as much as possible...depending on which ones you let slide.
I suppose all we can do as players is keep telling you how scummy it is. over and over.
Just seems like very little of this is making sense. They're handling this like complete amateurs in my opinion, failing to handle this like professionals. Just based on that I'd just leave this site be and not play at all. Of course a ton of sites have such rules but the way they are enforced at BitStarz is just nuts.
October 27, 2016, 11:51:01 AM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
Alright mike, why didn't you let this guy slide?
we do not keep track of how many people that are breaching that rule
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
and is suffering the consequences, as again, we let many slide.
What's the thought process when deciding who gets to keep their winnings a who's winnings become Bitstarz revenue.
Assuming this guy is telling the truth about having 3 bitcoin confiscated, your bonus of death rule just added 3 btc to your revenue. We need to start keeping track here...
Like i said before, letting some slide seems like the obvious best strategy for you to confiscate as much as possible...depending on which ones you let slide.
I suppose all we can do as players is keep telling you how scummy it is. over and over.
October 27, 2016, 11:18:32 AM
Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...
October 11, 2016, 11:15:47 PM
Hey,
The rules are all right. What is questionable is that you did not ask for any verification when the deposit was made or on the corresponding cashout, but when he wanted to cashout a a much larger amount almost a year later.
I will look forward to the technical implementation.
Thank you
Hi there,
I know it sounds weird, I agree with you. But most of the cashouts are processed automatically so we don't even
notice them going out, and as your cashout was bigger than usual it got stuck in our system so we had to
manually push it through, that's when we noticed it. Again, not doing that just to be mean, I promise.
Thank you, so do I, trust me!
Mike
October 11, 2016, 10:27:29 PM
Hi there,
Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.
Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.
Mike
Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.
Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.
Mike
I personally do not have any issues with your terms or fiat deposits or your casino, I lose/lost nothing. All I mean is your competition is better.
Yes, I am fully aware of that. I also know that scared off some of your players who had previous fiat deposits, cards or whatever. You have taken care of the making terms more visible part, but you still have not fairly compensated those players and have not done anything to enforce the terms from your side as RHaver suggests. Take his advice.
Quote
...but it doesn't matter how many times you do that, someone will always forget/ignore/miss the terms
and conditions.
and conditions.
which is why you need to do it.
Hi there,
That's so good about the selection of casinos we've got out there, I mean, it's all capitalism, right? If you do
not like BitStarz, I'm thrilled you've found another casino that fits your needs. So I wish you all the best there
Well, that might be the case, you're right, but we cannot bend the legislation that way, that has to be a question
for the legislator of the specific jurisdiction and we're simply following the regulation in place. I'm sure there's some
who don't like the verification part, but we're simply following the law here.
Even if you put terms all over the page, there'll still be people arguing that if there's no technical limitation in place,
we still "accepted the bet" and the information on the site doesn't matter. I'm sorry, but we can only do so much to
try to get the info out there. The technical implementation is coming, we actually had a developer meeting today
regarding that, so don't worry
Mike
Hey,
The rules are all right. What is questionable is that you did not ask for any verification when the deposit was made or on the corresponding cashout, but when he wanted to cashout a a much larger amount almost a year later.
I will look forward to the technical implementation.
Thank you
October 11, 2016, 03:54:37 PM
Hi there,
Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.
Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.
Mike
Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.
Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.
Mike
I personally do not have any issues with your terms or fiat deposits or your casino, I lose/lost nothing. All I mean is your competition is better.
Yes, I am fully aware of that. I also know that scared off some of your players who had previous fiat deposits, cards or whatever. You have taken care of the making terms more visible part, but you still have not fairly compensated those players and have not done anything to enforce the terms from your side as RHaver suggests. Take his advice.
Quote
...but it doesn't matter how many times you do that, someone will always forget/ignore/miss the terms
and conditions.
and conditions.
which is why you need to do it.
Hi there,
That's so good about the selection of casinos we've got out there, I mean, it's all capitalism, right? If you do
not like BitStarz, I'm thrilled you've found another casino that fits your needs. So I wish you all the best there
Well, that might be the case, you're right, but we cannot bend the legislation that way, that has to be a question
for the legislator of the specific jurisdiction and we're simply following the regulation in place. I'm sure there's some
who don't like the verification part, but we're simply following the law here.
Even if you put terms all over the page, there'll still be people arguing that if there's no technical limitation in place,
we still "accepted the bet" and the information on the site doesn't matter. I'm sorry, but we can only do so much to
try to get the info out there. The technical implementation is coming, we actually had a developer meeting today
regarding that, so don't worry
Mike
About these rules you have to follow, are they made public anywhere? Are there any that protect the players?
The whole point of verifying a player should be to make sure that they aren't underage, previously banned or a using fraudulent funds, right?
If that were your primary concern, you would be verifying all your players during the registration process.
If you think maximizing deposits and minimizing cashouts is more important though, you would allow anyone deposit and redeposit as many times as they like, and only consider verification when a cashout is requested.
October 11, 2016, 11:10:43 AM
Hi there,
Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.
Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.
Mike
Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.
Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.
Mike
I personally do not have any issues with your terms or fiat deposits or your casino, I lose/lost nothing. All I mean is your competition is better.
Yes, I am fully aware of that. I also know that scared off some of your players who had previous fiat deposits, cards or whatever. You have taken care of the making terms more visible part, but you still have not fairly compensated those players and have not done anything to enforce the terms from your side as RHaver suggests. Take his advice.
Quote
...but it doesn't matter how many times you do that, someone will always forget/ignore/miss the terms
and conditions.
and conditions.
which is why you need to do it.
Hi there,
That's so good about the selection of casinos we've got out there, I mean, it's all capitalism, right? If you do
not like BitStarz, I'm thrilled you've found another casino that fits your needs. So I wish you all the best there
Well, that might be the case, you're right, but we cannot bend the legislation that way, that has to be a question
for the legislator of the specific jurisdiction and we're simply following the regulation in place. I'm sure there's some
who don't like the verification part, but we're simply following the law here.
Even if you put terms all over the page, there'll still be people arguing that if there's no technical limitation in place,
we still "accepted the bet" and the information on the site doesn't matter. I'm sorry, but we can only do so much to
try to get the info out there. The technical implementation is coming, we actually had a developer meeting today
regarding that, so don't worry
Mike
October 11, 2016, 10:03:24 AM
Hi there,
Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.
Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.
Mike
Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.
Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.
Mike
I personally do not have any issues with your terms or fiat deposits or your casino, I lose/lost nothing. All I mean is your competition is better.
Yes, I am fully aware of that. I also know that scared off some of your players who had previous fiat deposits, cards or whatever. You have taken care of the making terms more visible part, but you still have not fairly compensated those players and have not done anything to enforce the terms from your side as RHaver suggests. Take his advice.
Quote
...but it doesn't matter how many times you do that, someone will always forget/ignore/miss the terms
and conditions.
and conditions.
which is why you need to do it.
October 11, 2016, 01:39:45 AM
October 11, 2016, 01:23:51 AM
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