Topic: Bitstarz Removes 3.45 Btc Balance According to Breaking Bonus Terms - page 6. (Read 11028 times)

Hi there,

Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.

Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.

Mike

Hi there,

Again, we have a big set of terms and conditions and some of them are there to prevent abuse, but
that does not per definition mean that everyone out there is out to abuse us, therefore we do let
some things slip if we make the call that the player genuinely made a mistake.

Again, as a casino, it's better to keep a customer over time and on top of that, and I've repeated myself
I don't know how many times now, we try to put them as clearly and remind as much as possible,
but it doesn't matter how many times you do that, someone will always forget/ignore/miss the terms
and conditions.

Mike

No. I remember quite well that the terms page is the only place you have mentioned the max bet rule till a while back.




Yeah? May be you should start thinking from your players' perspective?

In  other words, Bitstarz earns more from players that are happy and continue to deposit than from players who stop depositing because you refused to pay them.

Good for you. But really you shouldn't be earning anything from cancelled withdraws.  

A= [(Total Bet*HouseEdge) - Total Bonuses]
B= Cancelled Withdraws
C= Annual Profit

A + B = C

If C=100, what are A and B at Bitstars?

Ethically, you should be doing everything you can to keep B as close to 0 as possible.

Casinos (both online and B&M)regulated by the NJDGE (New Jersey), B always = 0, When funds are seized from players (Banned players, underage players, cheaters etc.) they are surrendered to the state.  This rule is in place to protect players.

When pokerstars seizes player funds they  are donated to responsible gaming charities. (They are still criticized for receiving tax incentives on these donations)

It's terribly obvious that Softswiss terms and conditions are written in a way to make B as high as possible while still keeping a majority of players happy and willing to return to deposit more.

Also, if a player deposits BTC1 and receives a BTC1 bonus, clears the bonus and then has their BTC10 cashout rejected and balance reset to BTC1, you still took BTC9 from him.  It was nice of you to give him BTC1 since you didn't have to.  But all you're really doing is choosing to seize "only" 90% of what you could.  If a player is guilty of a violation serious enough to justify not paying him, their entire balance should be seized and account closed.



Would you be willing to come on a podcast to discuss it on Wednesday night?  http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/radio.php (don't let the name scare you, its more about online gambling in genral - not just the bad and the owner is reasonable)

bitstars.net: Serious question. Why don't you enforce all the conditions of your ToS on the server? Most of them are absolutely trivial to do so (e.g. max bets) or  "Sorry, you can only claim the deposit bonus 4 times in a row! Next deposit doesn't allow you to claim it").


The fact that you have:
a) Terms that are easy to enforce from your side, but rely on the player to be careful to not do so
b) If the terms are violated (which can be completely accidental), it works out hugely in your favor.

leads to the inescapable conclusion that you want people to break them  (otherwise you would spend half an hour coding)  so in the off-chance they win some real money, you don't need to pay

Hi there,

If a person don't take the responsibility to read them, then unfortunately it's on them at the end
of the day, the player has the highest responsibility here. We try to make it as simple as possible and
we're not impossible when it comes to letting things like that slip if we deem that it was an honest mistake.

Again, we have let things like this slip in the past, but it comes down to a case to case thing.

Mike

No matter how you want to try as much as possible to do damage control or public relations, what has happened has happened and I am so sure you have lost more than what was confisticated from 'worthy of you" in which the fault is on you because you allow this matter fester up to this point where it could have been settled and everyone would have moved on. The terms are there but I am sure 99% dont even bother to read it before accepting to it and because youre also in business you accommodate us to ply even though you know we havent read it. The rules are there but they can bend in situation like this because what will be lost will actually be more than what is to be protected...

Hi there,

We have the terms and conditions visible in so many places on the website,
in every email you receive, on the promotions page, etc. But however many
time we place it, there's always going to be someone claiming we're not clear
enough, it's a matter of opinion

So, your take on laws and rules are that they're there, but they're not supposed
to be enforced? That sounds quite contradictory.

We do not think that, and not everyone is getting their money confiscated, many
of them are getting their winnings. But the ones we deem have tried to abuse
us will have to be dealt with in a different way.

Regards,

Mike

If I deposit something, take a bonus, start losing, all I need to do is break the terms to get deposit back?... Nope. What you mean is if the player wins, you give him a nasty surprise tell he broke the terms he had agreed to and if makes a mess give him his deposit back. free bonus, free spins? nothing back and if he loses, nothing back.
Sounds player friendly?




Only now. A lot of damage has already been done.

I'm referring to matters before you made the terms more transparent.




Terms are single sided. meant to protect you. not give you a means to fraud unsuspecting players. The terms are acceptable. The way you enforce it is not. You are not expected to literally enforce it.

Do you really believe all those players who bet more than this 25 mBTC while having an active bonus is trying to abuse the bonus and rip you off?

Hi there,

To be completely honest with you, a casino earns more on keeping a player
long term than short term gains. But as a casino we have to protect
ourselves from abuse in any way, but I hear what you're saying. The problem
is to make that determination if someone is abusing or not, you will have to
look a a multiple of factors.

If you wish to discuss this further, PM me your number and we can talk it
out over on the phone. I'd be happy to personally answer any questions you might
have!

Mike

The rule is in place to protect the casino from being exploited.

When Bitstarz enforces it on players that have not given any reason to believe they are maliciously exploiting the site, Bitstarz is the only party guilty of abuse.

It's not about whats fair and not fair.  It's about being the most successful casino possible.  Right?

Well, I'm telling you...this type of scummy behavior is damaging the entire industry.  Go ask some strangers walking down the street what they have heard about bitcoin casinos if you don't believe me.

"Other casinos do it" is bullshit excuse. 

Do you want to be like those other casinos with scummy terms that are enforced or no?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you let Softswiss or some other third party set things up and you aren't aware that there are so many (like the bonus terms being buried up till last week when you moved them.)

Why do you think they decided to put this list of restricted games in this particular order?
Answer: Confusing list increases the chance of a player not realizing they are trying to clear bonus on restricted game. Result:  Overall Cashout Rate Decreases.


Oh look, a term that gives you the right to void all winnings if an audit fails...which could mean anything...


Oh look a rule that gives you the right to void all winnings if a player does what 99% of all players do (use some sort of gambling strategy)



Oh look a rule that was added by betsoft AFTER a player won a 500 bitcoin jackpot on freespins, and also demonstrates how clueless the people managing Betsoft really are:


(read this post if you don't know what I'm talking about: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15426182 ) and then go look at all your betsoft games with progressives that can only be won during Bonus Rounds.

Another predatory condition that exists to help you increase your profits over the standard HE by that much more.



I got a few more but I'll save them for later.

"You ought to prove that it is a standard practice to take the entire balance of the players in these cases."

Hi there,

The standard practice there is to remove the balance and leave the player with the initial deposit at the
casinos there that I'm familiar with personally.


"There are so many ways to make things fair, why do you ignore them?"

We're doing our best to make people aware of this rule. I'm not sure if "fair" is the word I'd use
here. We've got a rule on the site, which is very much common in a lot of casinos online, and we
do our best to make people aware of it until we get a technical solution. You can call that unfair
if you wish, but the player also has a responsibility to read up on the terms and conditions
if he/she wishes to get a bonus.

Kind Regards,

Mike

You ought to prove that it is a standard practice to take the entire balance of the players in these cases.





Yeah that is exactly how it works.




There are so many ways to make things fair, why do you ignore them?

Why did this get locked?

Here is a legitimate question - How many times has a player lost his money or a lot of it, had a bonus and bet over the maximum allowed and had his deposit refunded because he broke the terms?

Probably never. If your going to keep your rule like that, and not add a limit, make sure players who lose that break the rule get their deposit back or the bet refunded (win or loss).

Hi there,

If you're breaking the rules of a site where you've accepted the terms in the first place, you might have to ask yourself who
you should be mad at. I'm not trying to be arrogant here, I'm just telling you how it is.

There are still rules that needs to be followed, and as explained, it's extremely hard to get a technical solution in place to prevent
this. You can't prevent someone from opening duplicate accounts, that's something you find out after it has been created, and
it's just an example of things that you have to work out retroactively.

If you do not agree with the max bet rule, then that's totally ok. All we ask is that the players of BitStarz abide to the rules
they accept. If you don't wish to accept the rules, then I wish you all the best in another casino that suits you better.

Mike

Clearly Bitstarz made a huge mistake! Again!

Shit happens, we all know that, but this is a scam! They allowed "worthyou" to place a bet and when he won something they confiscated his money.
Wait the minute, what would happen in case "worthyou" lost again? Nothing probably!
Mike from bitstarz is just repeating himself, rules, rules... you had high roller now you don't, people are reading this and we will not come to play on your site cause some hidden rules and how you treat your players.

And your constant repeating other casinos is funny after we saw what BetKing did. Congratulations! That is a way for attracting good players, everything can be solved nicely. But mike from bitstarz confiscated money, and said "its our rule go fuck yourself, other casinos have same rule, we allowed you to place bet but when we saw you won we will show our terms and conditions"

Big respect for Betking! And one more big minus for bitstarz!

"But I think everyone and every
place deserves a fair shot at explaining themselves."  You confiscated money that
someone earned, did you give "worthyou" a chance!? If you were smart you should make a deal with him, explain to him rules and YOUR mistake, cause YOU (read casino) allowed that bet!!!! That is end of story, your fault!!!! You should apologize to this player and give him money, solve your problems and limit bets for next time!

Hi there,

Well, we always like to hear both sides of every story. Wherever you go online, there is going to
be people who uses reason and people who don't. But I think it's extremely important to address
genuine concerns from players, and we do listen.

And we try to do that as well, but one thing you have to understand is that it might sound easy
to immediately inform someone about a terms being violated, but it's harder to get things like
that technically implemented, especially if you're a boutique casino (and a bigger casino too for
that matter), but we're trying to do our best to get it in place as soon as we can.

In terms of the Max bet rule, those are just the casinos I found from a quick google search,
there's plenty more of them out there. I just wanted to give an example that we're not alone
in those terms and put it there just try do our best to screw people over, which is obviously
not our intention. In terms of who's the one making the call, it would be a team leader or
manager's decision.

Well, haha, we could technically. We're the ones having their games, and if we don't like
them, we could say that, although I'd try to be a little more diplomatic about it. But yes
we could technically close them out. But again, I hope that this comes across in a good way;
I want to hear both sides of the story in all cases before I jump to any conclusions, and that
goes for everything.

Just as some call people trolls, or some say that casino are scammers, at least we can play
with open cards and try to make sense of things. The more information that is out there means
that people can make more educated decisions. If all correct info is out there and people don't
like BitStarz, that's totally fine with me, you can't like everything. But I think everyone and every
place deserves a fair shot at explaining themselves.

I promise to let you know when I have info regarding Glam Life and Betsoft, but I want to hear
what they have to say too!

I appreciate you keeping a nice tone in the feedback, and let me know if there's anything else you
need answered!

Mike