[Boxing] Tank Davis vs. Ryan Garcia betting and discussion (May, 2023) - page 4.

Kelvinid

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Quote from: Sanitough on May 02, 2023, 11:36:12 AM

Quote from: Baofeng on May 01, 2023, 07:34:25 PM

Its his last fight with Goosen though, as Garcia is parting ways with the fame training,

Quote

BoxingScene.com has confirmed that Garcia has parted ways with veteran trainer Joe Goossen. The split comes a little more than a year after the two joined forces in early 2022, working just three fights together and which ended with Garcia’s lone career defeat when he was stopped by unbeaten star Gervonta Davis in the seventh round of their April 22 super fight at T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada.

https://www.boxingscene.com/ryan-garcia-parts-ways-with-joe-goossen-following-knockout-defeat-gervonta-davis--174277

So from Reynoso->Goosen-> Huh

?

Who's next for Ryan? and can we blame him for leaving Goosen as his trainer? They are very close as Goosen has trained Ryan in the amateurs and it was reported that the Garcia's are close to Goosen. But obviously, with the way he lost against Tank, I guess Ryan might not be satisfied on how him and Goosen put up their strategy. Anyways, we will see which one his going to pick next as he wanted to go and move up to 140 lbs.

So, it seems that they are on the blaming game now and I wouldn't be shocked if a similar news will explode that Ryan Garcia have cut his ties with his promoter, Oscar Dela Hoya, although, I'm not even sure if Garcia can do it now (this year) because he got a contract under Golden Boy. I guess, we'll know about it soon as they are now on a hot mess. It all started when Oscar didn't show up in the post-fight press con.

Well, maybe but not this year though but there is a chance that it will happen soon enough because as far as I know, Ryan Garcia did inked a 5-year extension under Golden Boy Promotions last 2019 and that will end somewhere next year. So if ever Ryan Garcia will not have any other fight this year, then I think that mega-fight against Davis will be his last under Golden Boy.

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Quote from: Baofeng on May 01, 2023, 07:34:25 PM

Its his last fight with Goosen though, as Garcia is parting ways with the fame training,

Quote

BoxingScene.com has confirmed that Garcia has parted ways with veteran trainer Joe Goossen. The split comes a little more than a year after the two joined forces in early 2022, working just three fights together and which ended with Garcia’s lone career defeat when he was stopped by unbeaten star Gervonta Davis in the seventh round of their April 22 super fight at T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada.

https://www.boxingscene.com/ryan-garcia-parts-ways-with-joe-goossen-following-knockout-defeat-gervonta-davis--174277

So from Reynoso->Goosen-> Huh

?

Who's next for Ryan? and can we blame him for leaving Goosen as his trainer? They are very close as Goosen has trained Ryan in the amateurs and it was reported that the Garcia's are close to Goosen. But obviously, with the way he lost against Tank, I guess Ryan might not be satisfied on how him and Goosen put up their strategy. Anyways, we will see which one his going to pick next as he wanted to go and move up to 140 lbs.

So, it seems that they are on the blaming game now and I wouldn't be shocked if a similar news will explode that Ryan Garcia have cut his ties with his promoter, Oscar Dela Hoya, although, I'm not even sure if Garcia can do it now (this year) because he got a contract under Golden Boy. I guess, we'll know about it soon as they are now on a hot mess. It all started when Oscar didn't show up in the post-fight press con.

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Quote from: TopTort777 on May 02, 2023, 07:15:46 AM

I can blame Ryan only for taking impulsive decisions. If it is mentioned, that coach wasnt with him during post-fight conference, it seems that he has fire his coach straight after that lose. I think it is wrong to take such decisions without re-watching the fight, finding your own mistakes and etc. It looks like when you win, coach is good, but when you lose, you throw your coach away, like it was 100% his fault of your lost.

I think that's a strategy for Garcia to clear up his name, he put all the blame to his coach, so it will make people think Garcia lost because of the coach, not because of himself Roll Eyes

He's still young and have a childish mentality, he will not grow up if he keep doing this. Joe Goossen is actually a good coach, he have trained many boxers and I see some of them ever win a title fight. Maybe Joe Goossen already watch and studying from the replay to find a way how to beat Tank if the rematch will happen.

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Quote from: TopTort777 on May 02, 2023, 07:15:46 AM

I can blame Ryan only for taking impulsive decisions. If it is mentioned, that coach wasnt with him during post-fight conference, it seems that he has fire his coach straight after that lose. I think it is wrong to take such decisions without re-watching the fight, finding your own mistakes and etc. It looks like when you win, coach is good, but when you lose, you throw your coach away, like it was 100% his fault of your lost.

Better to review the tape and find the ways to improve more, instead of separating from each other where you already have a good
chemistry, a decision that might bring his career to nothing.

He is still young and, with his capability, it's more about how to accept your defeats and work out with what you missed from your previous loss to improve.

But it's more on how he will choose his path and what he believes can be help his career, whatever the decision
he takes now. It will reflect on his future.

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I can blame Ryan only for taking impulsive decisions. If it is mentioned, that coach wasnt with him during post-fight conference, it seems that he has fire his coach straight after that lose. I think it is wrong to take such decisions without re-watching the fight, finding your own mistakes and etc. It looks like when you win, coach is good, but when you lose, you throw your coach away, like it was 100% his fault of your lost.

Baofeng

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Its his last fight with Goosen though, as Garcia is parting ways with the fame training,

Quote

BoxingScene.com has confirmed that Garcia has parted ways with veteran trainer Joe Goossen. The split comes a little more than a year after the two joined forces in early 2022, working just three fights together and which ended with Garcia’s lone career defeat when he was stopped by unbeaten star Gervonta Davis in the seventh round of their April 22 super fight at T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada.

https://www.boxingscene.com/ryan-garcia-parts-ways-with-joe-goossen-following-knockout-defeat-gervonta-davis--174277

So from Reynoso->Goosen-> Huh

?

Who's next for Ryan? and can we blame him for leaving Goosen as his trainer? They are very close as Goosen has trained Ryan in the amateurs and it was reported that the Garcia's are close to Goosen. But obviously, with the way he lost against Tank, I guess Ryan might not be satisfied on how him and Goosen put up their strategy. Anyways, we will see which one his going to pick next as he wanted to go and move up to 140 lbs.

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Quote from: btc_angela on May 01, 2023, 05:31:11 PM

Quote from: Japinat on May 01, 2023, 04:05:37 PM

Just a quick question though,

Did you guys remember the time when Gervonta Davis had a live video call with Ryan Garcia where they both agreed to risk all their purse on the line? Because after Ryan Garcia agreed with the deal, Davis quickly called his manager/adviser, Al Haymon, on the other phone to prepare for the contract where the winner takes it all as both boxers already had a verbal agreement where the public are also watching.

Now, did that specific deal pushed through? or not?

Nah, it didn't push through, Tank said that Ryan will got his full money on this fight. It's just part of the hype I guess and I think we haven't seen that kind of negotiations throughout boxing history, there is not winner take all because it's doesn't make sense at all.

And for sure, Al Haymon or Leonard Ellerbe advises Tank that it's not going to happen. You just have to think that it's not the boxers alone, they have a lot of people behind them that they need to pay from the money that they will get from their fights. Good to hear that kind of purse fight and it's fun but it's all part of the marketing and promotions.

maybe just for the boxing fans to talk about the fight. but yeah, haven't heard this kind of negotiation in the boxing history. and do we really think that these promoters will accept such agreement? i don't think so.
at the end of the day, the final say will come from their promoters. the boxers themselves can make an agreement but the one who will take care of the contract are their respective promoters.

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Quote from: Japinat on May 01, 2023, 04:05:37 PM

Just a quick question though,

Did you guys remember the time when Gervonta Davis had a live video call with Ryan Garcia where they both agreed to risk all their purse on the line? Because after Ryan Garcia agreed with the deal, Davis quickly called his manager/adviser, Al Haymon, on the other phone to prepare for the contract where the winner takes it all as both boxers already had a verbal agreement where the public are also watching.

Now, did that specific deal pushed through? or not?

Nah, it didn't push through, Tank said that Ryan will got his full money on this fight. It's just part of the hype I guess and I think we haven't seen that kind of negotiations throughout boxing history, there is not winner take all because it's doesn't make sense at all.

And for sure, Al Haymon or Leonard Ellerbe advises Tank that it's not going to happen. You just have to think that it's not the boxers alone, they have a lot of people behind them that they need to pay from the money that they will get from their fights. Good to hear that kind of purse fight and it's fun but it's all part of the marketing and promotions.

Japinat

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Just a quick question though,

Did you guys remember the time when Gervonta Davis had a live video call with Ryan Garcia where they both agreed to risk all their purse on the line? Because after Ryan Garcia agreed with the deal, Davis quickly called his manager/adviser, Al Haymon, on the other phone to prepare for the contract where the winner takes it all as both boxers already had a verbal agreement where the public are also watching.

Now, did that specific deal pushed through? or not?

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Quote from: cryptomaniac_xxx on May 01, 2023, 07:14:51 AM

So yeah, not surprised by Ryan talking to Tank and getting his numbers. Or Ryan's mom hugging Tank Davis after the fight. And maybe it was the people behind them who really wanted to create all the drama to hype and they succeeded as it become the most watch fight this year.

After all, it's just a sport and they get in the ring just to give the fans the fight that they've been dreaming of, and after their job was done, they need to give themselves a peaceful life. I think it's really best to see them that way and for the other boxers that are talking too much and always below the belt of trash-talking, they need to realize that they are not there to talk trash and they should not focus on that rather they need to make it clear to train well and perform well inside the ring. Because most of the trash talkers ended up losing because their arrogance got them good and they didn't take the fight seriously, with no proper training and stamina after late rounds.

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Quote from: OgNasty on April 29, 2023, 01:10:57 PM

This fight surely had it's share of drama. Between Tank Davis claiming that people were trying to rub steroid cream on him in order to get him to fail a test, to Tank having a mole in Ryan Garcia's camp giving him information, to Ryan Garcia having an injury he suffered in training... Not to mention the violence charge Davis was facing... Then the bet for the purse... Ryan Garcia wanting to be Tank Davis' friend afterwards... This was one of the more unusual fights in recent memory. It seemed to me that the drama surrounding the fight was bigger than the fight itself.

I think we've seen rivals becoming friends in boxing, and maybe it was just Floyd who didn't make friends with his opponent. Manny Pacquiao for example, rivalry with Erik Morales and Marco Antonio Barrera, but after all what's been said and done in the ring, they've been closed throughout. Even Erik and Manny has commercials in the Philippines if my memory serves me right.

So yeah, not surprised by Ryan talking to Tank and getting his numbers. Or Ryan's mom hugging Tank Davis after the fight. And maybe it was the people behind them who really wanted to create all the drama to hype and they succeeded as it become the most watch fight this year.

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Quote from: inthelongrun on April 30, 2023, 02:19:10 PM

Quote from: OgNasty on April 29, 2023, 01:10:57 PM

This fight surely had it's share of drama. Between Tank Davis claiming that people were trying to rub steroid cream on him in order to get him to fail a test, to Tank having a mole in Ryan Garcia's camp giving him information, to Ryan Garcia having an injury he suffered in training... Not to mention the violence charge Davis was facing... Then the bet for the purse... Ryan Garcia wanting to be Tank Davis' friend afterwards... This was one of the more unusual fights in recent memory. It seemed to me that the drama surrounding the fight was bigger than the fight itself.

Controversies, trash-talking, and some other stuff can only hype and make the fight more popular and bigger. Ryan Garcia is a social media influencer and Tank Davis is PBC's biggest star so the drama made the event even bigger. Some of those are probably fake.

IIRC, this fight is the biggest non-title fight in boxing history after Mayweather vs McGregor. PPV buys were 1.2 to 1.4 million and live gate racked up $20 million. If the event grossed around $130 million, Tank could end up earning $20 to $40 million.

Good point as they really created a good interest for both PPV and live viewers, fans bite that trash talking and the outcome favors both
fighters and the promoters.

I like the way they sell the event and how they perform during the fight, even its smell like scripted but with how they fought inside the ring
that's what is important, they really provide the entertainment that fans would love to see between them.

Decent amount of pay checks for both camps, fully enough to enjoy their millions after the fight.

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Quote from: inthelongrun on April 29, 2023, 09:27:16 AM

Quote from: Kemarit on April 28, 2023, 07:22:23 AM

Quote from: inthelongrun on April 26, 2023, 01:20:09 PM

Quote from: Kemarit on April 25, 2023, 11:37:07 AM

Quote from: inthelongrun on April 25, 2023, 02:43:47 AM

Quote from: Kemarit on April 24, 2023, 06:08:17 AM

...And with that win, I shoot up Tank to be my #1 p4p list, followed by Naoya Inoue.

How about everyone? What do you think of Tank's performance here, are you with me ranking him the top p4p boxer right now?

Jeez, mate! You need to relax and take a breath. You just got carried away by the popularity of Tank and Garcia. Tank just beat another undefeated prospect. Only that it is more popular than his previous cherry-picked opponents. Garcia is not a world champion. Tommy Fury beating popular Jake Paul doesn't mean he is on the same level as champions Opetaia, Okolie, etc.

Tank's never been in The Ring's and Transnational Boxing Rankings Board's top 10 pound-for-pound. And his win against another undefeated yet unproven and non-champion Ryan Garcia won't merit an entrance to the top 10 let alone at rank 1.

No, I'm not, that's how I see it though, but at least let Tank be in the top 10 now. I just check Ring's list of p4p and I saw Juan Francisco Estrada at number 10. Nevertheless, might be the start for Tank to really up his opposition, maybe he should really fight the winner of Loma vs Haney.

Barring boxing politics and network affiliation, this could easily be made. Although Tank was asked this question if I'm not mistaken, but he didn't answer it directly. While Haney said he is willing to fight Tank next. Let's see how it goes, as I have said, this performance will at least break him in the top 10, IMHO. Josh Taylor is number 9 when he has a very close fight with Jack Catterall and almost lost that fight.

I cannot really imagine how Tank can enter the top 10. His resume is just too weak that he is not even worth mentioning in the top 15. Tank is only a 1 division champion, that's it. And he was not the lineal champ when he became a champ at 130. He's never been in a unification fight. His best win was over former champ Jose Pedraza where Tank took the IBF belt. The best name in his resume was Yuriorkis Gamboa but that was not the quality version of Gamboa. Or maybe Leo Santa Cruz, a 4 division champion. LSC though despite being a 4 division champion will never be mentioned among the greats since he was a product of politics and corruption. Probably the only fighter that was given the privilege to fight for the vacant belt in 4 divisions.

{..snip..}

Although recently, Tank is not listed by Ring as number 10 now. Maybe they just updated it to include Tank and removed Juan Francisco Estrada, and this is the first time that Tank is making it on the top 10.

Maybe he will start to climb in the ranks now, depending on who he is going to face next. I know that p4p list is very dubious and it's very different across, SI lists include David Benavidez, Shakur Stevenson and Devin Haney. So we can argue that those should not be in the list as well, specially David Benavidez. So I guess the organization that released their list could have some reasoning behind them.

SI, ESPN, Boxrec, Boxingscene, etc. are just garbage rankings. The pound-for-pound and lineal champions should come from an organization without politics and affiliations which is why The Ring was called the bible of boxing and which is why the TBRB should now be considered the most credible. Maybe only hardcore fans will get this.

That's the thing, there are no organizations that is not biased to the pound for pound rankings, everyone has it's narrative behind posting their list and that we can't just trust one list because it's going to be different. That's why Davis could be inserted in the list and then removed others.

Quote from: inthelongrun on April 29, 2023, 09:27:16 AM

You haven't seen the career of El Gallo then mate. Tank is nowhere near the achievements of that Mexican. If pound for pound is based on popularity then Tommy Fury, Jake Paul, Edgar Berlanga, etc. are in the top 10. But what is it with Ryan Garcia that its conqueror all of a sudden deserves a top 10 ranking?

I never said that El Gallo is not a great fighter or never watch his career, it was them who drop him. Maybe because he has been not been active after his big win against Chocolatito, and that's why the list is constantly updated as new fighters who put a great performance might be included and then others too. We might see changes in the ranking after the Loma vs Haney fight. Or maybe Canelo solidifying his performance if he made a statement win John Ryder.

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Quote from: OgNasty on April 29, 2023, 01:10:57 PM

This fight surely had it's share of drama. Between Tank Davis claiming that people were trying to rub steroid cream on him in order to get him to fail a test, to Tank having a mole in Ryan Garcia's camp giving him information, to Ryan Garcia having an injury he suffered in training... Not to mention the violence charge Davis was facing... Then the bet for the purse... Ryan Garcia wanting to be Tank Davis' friend afterwards... This was one of the more unusual fights in recent memory. It seemed to me that the drama surrounding the fight was bigger than the fight itself.

Controversies, trash-talking, and some other stuff can only hype and make the fight more popular and bigger. Ryan Garcia is a social media influencer and Tank Davis is PBC's biggest star so the drama made the event even bigger. Some of those are probably fake.

IIRC, this fight is the biggest non-title fight in boxing history after Mayweather vs McGregor. PPV buys were 1.2 to 1.4 million and live gate racked up $20 million. If the event grossed around $130 million, Tank could end up earning $20 to $40 million.

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Quote from: LUCKMCFLY on April 29, 2023, 05:02:03 PM

Gervonta Davis Wins Boxing Bout But Allows Ryan Garcia To Keep $5M Bet

Quote

On Saturday, a one-punch knockout won Gervonta “Tank” Davis the title match at the T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas. Davis also won a $10 million purse and the earnings of his opponent Ryan Garcia. The undefeated Baltimore champ was gracious enough to allow Garcia to keep his $5 million bag, according to the prizefighter’s comments during a post-match interview.

Source: https://www.blackenterprise.com/gervonta-davis-boxing-bet/

On their conference before the fight, they already cleared that there is no winner take all things in the fight so it is obvious that Ryan Garcia will get his share. Although before the final conference, there is a circulating rumor on social media that the loser will lose everything including the pot money, it was cleared when the host asked both fighters about it and both fighter state that the winner will not take the loser's pot[1]. So obviously Davis has no right to take Garcia's shares.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSoS3EnRDMM

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Quote from: yazher on April 17, 2023, 04:05:30 PM

Quote from: AmoreJaz on April 15, 2023, 06:26:20 PM

we can only assess the fight after this is over. so we can't judge garcia this early on how he will perform inside the ring. since he is being challenged by davis, he may still have something under his sleeves and let's see if those will come out inside the ring.
garcia knows he is the underdog on this fight. so he may surprise us during the fight.

With him getting this huge challenge such as this one, it's really obvious that he is practicing a counterattack that will gonna successfully land on Davis and that's the thing I really wanted to see from him. We may not gonna see this fight reaching the last rounds since both are known to be huge power punchers and can actually surprise us with their unique techniques to win this fight. I hope it will be turned out just how we thought would be and surely it will have a second fight if they can give each other a hard time. Maybe Garcia is the underdog in this fight but we cannot be sure if he is still one if they have a rematch.

I think that Davis is a great boxer, but saying that Garcia is going to lose or that he has already lost should not be, the fact that someone is underestimated can give him the necessary strength to shut everyone up, and this instead of giving him a bad feeling omen they are Driving him to win, of course I say this from the basic point of view as an athlete, and if there are already Other things that influence such as the Business model (we do not know what proposals they have received, because now things are like that) well,This is out of everyone's hands and it is more difficult because it is a delicate matter and one that few dare to say.

Gervonta Davis Wins Boxing Bout But Allows Ryan Garcia To Keep $5M Bet

Quote

On Saturday, a one-punch knockout won Gervonta “Tank” Davis the title match at the T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas. Davis also won a $10 million purse and the earnings of his opponent Ryan Garcia. The undefeated Baltimore champ was gracious enough to allow Garcia to keep his $5 million bag, according to the prizefighter’s comments during a post-match interview.

Source: https://www.blackenterprise.com/gervonta-davis-boxing-bet/

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Quote from: serjent05 on April 28, 2023, 06:32:00 PM

But what happened happens. It shows the immaturity of Ryan Garcia and the incapability of his training camp of setting a good strategy against a skilled and High IQ boxer.

Overall, they literally failed on every aspect of their run to defeat Tank Davis.

I even honestly thought that the fight would be interesting enough to see where we can see both boxers struggling while finding the right rhythm to give a good punch, but was we saw was just a one-sided fight, not because Tank was wiser but because Ryan Garcia didn't approached Tank with a caution and most certainly, he didn't adjust on what's need for him to take control of the fight.

Immature is indeed the right word for that, Ryan Garcia has become an amateur boxer in-front of Tank Davis.

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This fight surely had it's share of drama. Between Tank Davis claiming that people were trying to rub steroid cream on him in order to get him to fail a test, to Tank having a mole in Ryan Garcia's camp giving him information, to Ryan Garcia having an injury he suffered in training... Not to mention the violence charge Davis was facing... Then the bet for the purse... Ryan Garcia wanting to be Tank Davis' friend afterwards... This was one of the more unusual fights in recent memory. It seemed to me that the drama surrounding the fight was bigger than the fight itself.

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Quote from: cryptomaniac_xxx on April 29, 2023, 07:19:13 AM

Quote from: bisdak40 on April 28, 2023, 06:04:04 PM

Quote

Gervonta Davis-Ryan Garcia: Approximately 1.2M PPV Buys; $22.8M In Ticket Revenue

We all knew that Davis vs Garcia was a great success but it also exceeded the expectation of some in terms of pay-per-view, especially in the US.

Have read an article that even if it only generated 450k to 750k view, it would still be a success but damn that 1.2 millions views was massive if that was an accurate figure they gave there. I wonder how much money if that views were translated in dollars and how much share would Garcia and Davis would get from it.

As per this article:

Quote

The WBA regular lightweight champion Gervonta Davis is set to earn a guaranteed fight purse of $5 million and 50% of the pay-per-view shares for the event. In total, 'Tank' is expected to take home a total of around $10 million.

His opponent Garcia is set to earn a guaranteed purse of $2.5 million. However, his actual payout will be much higher since he is expected to have a 50 percent stake in the pay-per-view numbers. The former WBC interim lightweight champion might see a pay-day of nearly $5 million.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/pro-boxing/news-how-much-gervonta-davis-make-ryan-garcia-here-s-estimate-fight-purse

Guaranteed purse for Tank = $5 million
Guaranteed purse for Ryan = $2.5 million

And then both of them will be getting 50% in the pay-per-view numbers. And since the fight produces one of the best pay-per-view numbers this year at 1.2 buys, it could really equate into big money for Ryan and Tank. So I guess that will be the consolation for Ryan Garcia, getting huge money in this fight even if he lost.

Just like I've mentioned few days ago, it's a win-win situation for Ryan Garcia because regardless of the outcome, this bout will give him the biggest paycheck so far. Where could he possibly find that guaranteed $2.5 Million if he's not facing Tank Davis and he could roughly earn as much as $5 to $6 Million (including the PPV buys). But aside from that, I'm curious how much did Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Oscar Dela Hoya earned from this bout as they are the mastermind behind this event.

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Quote from: Botnake on April 28, 2023, 04:41:42 PM

Quote from: Natalim on April 28, 2023, 02:52:27 PM

Well, I think both Ryan Garcia and Goosen made a mistake because they didn't prepared for that fight well but they expected a different outcome. Goosen should've planted into Ryan Garcia's thick head that he should use his size advantage because Tank Davis will definitely have a hard time landing a good clean punch if he cannot reach Ryan, but what happened was the exact opposite because it's Ryan who adjusted to give Tank the control of the fight, which explains why Tank didn't have any hard time giving Ryan a good counter punch that knocked him down in two separate rounds.

Right because if only Ryan Garcia and his team made the right adjustment, they could've at least give Gervonta Davis a hard time rather than getting KO'd as early as 2nd round because of overcommitting rather than to wait patiently until Gervonta Davis will make the mistake for reaching Ryan Garcia. I clearly expected that after that incident, Ryan Garcia will try to clear his head because that move was obviously a mistake and would be cautious enough next time but he committed the same mistake again.

Anyway, Ryan Garcia already said that he's moving up while Tank might face the winner of Loma-Haney fight. Whatever it is, let's talk about that in a different thread because I think it's time for this discussion to be close.

As I think during the early rounds or let's say in round 1 and 2 Ryan Garcia thinking that he can handle Davis smoothly but not gonna work as we all know that tank Davis is unstoppable once he hit a good spot and that's what he doing while he fighting Ryan Garcia and in round 2 he hit Ryan a good hit and made Ryan to knocked down his knees but Tank Davis will continue what he started and every round Ryan Garcia feel getting worst.

Topic: [Boxing] Tank Davis vs. Ryan Garcia betting and discussion (May, 2023) - page 4. (Read 7476 times)