Topic: [Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016] - page 38. (Read 131512 times)

I do have to agree this guide is not really unbiased. Inaba does actually bring up a valid point about having a BFL rating.  I think BFL should be rated really low, but to have a BFL rating does make it sort of personal.  Also how on earth is a scam company like Avalon rated higher than Bitmain? They renamed after fucking over everyone and all is forgiven?  I think Dogie does a nice job with these guides and stuff, but he has always liked Avalon and his ratings kind of show it imo.  Also you are now paid by AM? so almost impossible to be impartial imo.

Squeaker, I don't believe you are a paid shill, but what is your point and how do you even defend a company with many lawsuits and marks against them?

http://www.woodlaw.com/cases/butterfly-labs-and-bf-labs-inc-bitcoin-miners

http://www.coindesk.com/butterfly-labs-faces-5m-lawsuit-unfulfilled-order/

http://www.coindesk.com/buterfly-labs-accused-buying-blog-hide-negative-search-results/

I mean, a company has a reputation for a reason.

What are you even arguing?

For BFL's current generation of hardware they did exclusively take preorders. That part is not debatable.

They shouldn't get bonus points because they are selling old unprofitable miners to the mentally handicapped.

Ok, so who is complaining about the compensation?  They are being given a full refund, more hashrate or a combination of the two.  What more do you want?



We stop taking orders and that's not an "effort to change that?"  LOL... what is an effort to change that then, if not that?


Link to cases that don't exist?  What are you talking about?  You do know how class action lawsuits work, right?  A judge needs to grant the class action case and the party bringing the suit has to bring credible evidence that warrants class status.  There's basically nothing so far that would warrant such a status.  But disregarding the speculation, the fact is that it is NOT a class action suit at this time and will NOT be one anytime soon.  That is indisputable fact, not speculation.



You never said two weeks was in regards to shipping?  Then what is it in regards to, pray tell?  As far as being banned from the BFL forums, please provide actual evidence, not your supposition.  Once again, you make claims but you can't actually back them up with evidence.  You provide the evidence and I will explain to you exactly why that person was banned, with evidence to back up my claim.  See, that's the difference between you and me.  I back up my claims with evidence, you have yet failed to do so.

As far as "paying people to discredit you."  What a pompous, self important ass you are.  It was about showing what a joke the trust rating system is, not about you.  I don't care one whit about you. You were just a convenient demonstration piece, being as you are active in spreading false information on the forums, so a logical choice for the demonstration.  The fact that you are upset about it proves my point, so thanks for confirming that the trust system is a broken joke.  How is that discrediting you, if the trust system works?  If the trust system doesn't work, how are you discredited?  It's not about you and never has been.  Deflate your ego a little bit, man.


Are you serious?  I have presented you with facts based off your guide and you claim I haven't pointed out any facts?  Let me quote my post again.


Dogie... those are facts. We've delivered over 50k miners (actually over 60k now).  It's gone from "delivered miners" to "delivered miners recently" now that I've provided the facts that you are wrong.
Uses preorders?  Fact: BFL does not take preorders and hasn't for almost 6 months.
Refund issues: Fact: BFL provides full refunds
Communication: Fact: BFL communicates regularly
Ethics: Fact: You have made a special category just for BFL, making you opinionated and biased.

Those are called facts.  You have presented nothing to the contrary so far except speculation and false information, which are called "not facts."  

Better than wasting more time than is deserved on an unreasonable dolt with a personal axe to grind.

Enjoy your rage. o/

=squeak=

By that line of reasoning, any order anybody places that isn't on a plane or truck enroute to you the same day as you make the order, is a pre-order.

Just sayin'

=squeak=

LOL.

No debate as I said.

Enjoy the thread.

A thread that RATES EACH COMPANY INTO A LIST TOP TO BOTTOM.

Hahaha. Oh boy.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmeuPljmUNHCdEpqX2RmMDFwemJyLURVUWFtZ3J3aGc&usp=sharing#gid=9

I'm not here to debate company vs company, and don't have any experience with Bitmaintech in any event.

At this point, I'm just watching the existing debate that you earlier said there isn't.

=squeak=

As many as is considered acceptable by customers. Having a backlog of orders behind schedule isn't considered acceptable - unless they're being compensated acceptably. Note thats actually being compensated, not promised to be compensated.



Eh? You're saying "we don't use preorders" on the basis that you don't take any sales at all. In that case you should be removed from the list entirely because you're not an ASIC company in the recent few months right? You're business model is currently preorder based and until you make an effort to change that you will remain 1/20 for that category.



Do you have a link to any cases I can view online so I can review? The papers from Woodlaw schedule show nothing to prevent it being a class action.



And I never said the two weeks was in regards to shipping. Saying no one has ever been banned from the BFL forums for saying anything negative though is pretty laughable though. Every time you ban an innocent they come over here and make a post along the lines of "yeah I just said "when can we expect x y z and got permabanned? :/." I'm not one of those obsessed with your company and I'm not going to turn this into a quote war. I'm not even going to invite anyone else to do so because I don't want this thead to turn into BFL vs the world like the other 10 threads.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/8203-win-butterfly-labs-imperial-monarch.html You paid your customers to discredit me.



You've not pointed out any facts, nor presented any evidence. You keep saying "that's a lie that's a lie" yet you're not actually talking about anything, its hard to argue against that :s



Its a shame you made that quote up. GL with your talk.

Go ahead you first.

Seems you never answered. Here is something to debate.

Bitmaintech vs. BFL where would you put your money?

Wonder why that would be a hard question to answer?

====

Monarch Customer vs. S1, S2 or S3 Customers over the past 12 months... can we do the comparisons?

No debate required.

Does not apply.  Like I said, provide some caselaw to the contrary.  Otherwise you're just being an armchair lawyer that has no understanding of the actual legal system.


Fair enough, please provide proof to back up your claim.  I already asked for this, you've still failed to provide it.



The lawsuits are for people complaining about not becoming millionaries in 3 weeks by mining, not about refunds.  Check your facts.  The lawsuits have never been about refunds.


Which was true when the advertisements were created.


True at the time and pretty much still true now.  Which miner can achieve .45W/GH efficiency currently?  Is there one?  Not saying there isn't, but it's not an unrealistic claim.


True, although I might grant that if you include the ASIC miner USB sticks, they might have more units shipped than we do.  If you do not include those, then yes, it's absolutely true.


Absolutely true.  Any of the other large scale manufacturers outsource their production capacity to other companies.  

Already addressed above.


Was true at the time of the advertisement creation.


Was true at the time of the advertisement creation.


Still true.


Believed to be true at the time.  Where do you even see this?


How is this false?  That was most assuredly the plan.


Also true.


True statement. How is this a false advertisement?


True at the time.


True at the time.


True at the time.


True.


Believed to be true at the time. Customers offered full refunds if they were unhappy with the new specs.


Are you seriously trying to say this is false?!


And this is false how?


False how? We did exactly that.


This is false how?


Most definitely true at the time.


I suppose close is relative. At .7 W/GH vs .5 W/GH, I'd say you could classify it as true.


This is not an advertisement. But regardless, it's true and Theymos confirmed it himself on these forums.


Absolutely true.


Not really an advertisement, but regardless, it is true.


Believed to be true at the time.


Absolutely true.


True at the time.


True at the time.

Wow... you are 0/29, ouch!

There seems to be debate, actually.

=squeak=

There is no difference between a 33% and Do not Buy.

BFL should be avoided simple as that. There is absolutely no debate on that point.

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule



"Only two more weeks" did not become a phrase because you said it once.

If refunds were so easy, you wouldn't have had several lawsuits, forced paypal/CC refunds, and customer complaints.



It becomes an ethics issue when you advertise the competition as $17.50/GH.


Here's a bit of it:

1. (monarch) The fastest and most power-efficient Bitcoin miner yet
2. Butterfly Labs has shipped more ASIC products than all competitors combined
3. Our facility in Kansas has the largest production capacity of all Bitcoin hardware manufacturers.
4. The Competition at least $ 17.50 /GH
5. 65nm ASIC chip is now powering the majority of the bitcoin network
6. The bottom line is that BFL is the only 28nm chip manufacturer on its 2nd generation ASIC
7. All manufacturers in this space have experienced some degree of delay with their first generation ASIC
8. 28nm products won't begin shipping til year end
9. (monarch) plan to begin shipments in February, 2014
10. Orders are shipped in order date priority so any order placed now should be expected to be delivered in March.
11. We are pioneers of the industry - having manufactured the first commercial Bitcoin mining hardware.
12. November / December    Initial Shipping
13. still on track for December/January
14. As we enter the 28nm era, we're the only competitor with a proven ASIC design in the field.
15. Tape out August 2013
16. Gen1 65nm asics will be around 1w/gh
17. BTC mining, being a zero sum activity, makes it viable and profitable to get as many people to cancel their orders as possible, so your position improves
18. We are so confident in our power consumption that we are offering up 1000 BTC to charity if we miss our power consumption targets by more than 10%
19. Everyone should be aware of the fact that you are allowed to upgrade 1, 2, 3 or 4 Jalepeno's to 1 Single and keep your place in line
20. Individual orders that are less than 6 months old and that paid for the reduced price 600GH or 300GH Monarch will likely not be delayed past the expected delivery date
21. We have developed the most technologically advanced, most power efficient mining chip on the planet by a factor of two.
22. KnC's new 20nm chip isn't even close to our 28nm chip in terms of performance.
23. I have spoken with Theymos, the operator of Bitcointalk, about this and I have his full knowledge and permission to perform this experiment
24. plan to begin shipments in March 2014
25. However, this is our second generation, so we have much greater clarity on the process
26. meaning the deployment of the Monarch will be delayed about 5 weeks from now
27. it is possible we will begin shipping limited quantities by the end of the week of the 21st(april), it's more likely we will begin shipping the following week, assuming no blocking issues arise.
28. our mining chip is more than 2x efficient than any other chip out
29. The Monarch product line is essentially 3x - 5x more efficient at any comparable hashrate than the competition

What is your definition of "few" then?  10?  50?  100?  500?  1000?  10,000?


Easily. We have not accepted any orders for months... I think we discontinued it in May for the 28nm line, almost 1/2 a year ago.  Here, let me quote you a few sentences ago: "The system is weighted heavily on the immediate past" ... so what does the 65nm line have to do with it?  So which is it, is it weighted on the immediate past or is it since last year?  Make up your mind.


Who is suing individually and in a class action?  The Woodlawn thing is not a class action suit and probably never will be.  The one other lawsuit is just as laughable.  So there are exactly two lawsuits pending, the rest have been either dismissed or I think there might be summary judgement since BFL was never actually served properly.  If they had been, those cases would have been dismissed as well.  There's a reason none of the lawsuits have been successful when they actually make it to court.


See, you are lying again. First of all, as I stated in the previous post, I never said two weeks in regards to shipping.  Please prove me wrong with a quote.  If I have said it, I said in an isolated post, but I've been unable to find any evidence of it.  The only "two weeks" I've ever commented on was Bruno's stupid FCC tirade.  No one has been banned for saying anything negative about BFL on the BFL forums.  Your statement to the contrary is easily falsified by browsing the forums and looking at the negative posts.  People are banned for trolling, posting the same junk over and over or posting false information (usually repeatedly).  It has nothing to do with negativity and everything to do with post content and presentation.  Please demonstrate evidence to the contrary.

I have no idea what you're babbling about when you talk about paying people to discredit them.  WTF?  Conspiracy much?


Oh, this isn't your guide?  You didn't create it?  The only reason BFL was "in it" was because you are biased and opinionated. You don't take actual facts into consideration, just your own personal feelings.  Once again, I point out the facts and you respond with hyperbole, myths and lies. This is your guide, you created the category.  That is a lie right there.  I've already refuted the rest of your claims, yet you cling to them without providing a shred of evidence or proof.


Well, at least you go that part right.

Bite me Josh. Let´s see how your court cases turn out.

Until then, I hope you will be able to sell as little as possible of your overpriced, late delivered garbage to people who do not know better.

I think it is clear to anyone with a halfway decently working memory that you shouldn´t buy at BFL unless you are a masochist.

Fair enuf... my bad for getting you guys mixed up.

=squeak=

False. There was no law requiring us to give refunds. Please cite caselaw to support your position (you can't, since it doesn't exist. Please consult a lawyer before addressing this issue going forward. As for the advertised spec, people were offered refunds and were in fact REQUIRED to accept the new specs or they would be given a refund if they did not respond in a certain amount of time.  How much more proactive and ethical can it get in that regard?


False. There are no delay tactics. I don't even know what you are referring to. You ask for a refund, you get a refund. How hard is that?  Additionally, it was stated BEFORE you ordered that there were no refunds and you were told you NOT TO ORDER if you didn't agree with that.

 

That's your opinion, not really an ethical issue.


The only time I have said two weeks is in response to Bruno's stupid crusade to find out about FCC certification.  I replied to a post asking when it would be FCC certified with "Umm, two weeks?" otherwise, I have never said two weeks about shipping that I can recall.  Please provide evidence to the contrary.  The estimations I have given on shipping have ALWAYS been tentative and have been labeled as such. I'm sorry the estimations have been wrong, but I use the best information I have available at the time.


What false advertising would that be?

1) That's not a rating criteria, thats the result of being rated. Its like energy efficiency:



Saying a bulb is F or G efficiency doesn't make it inefficient - it was inefficient in the first place and calling it F or G is just a label to represent that inefficiency.

2) Please stop confusing me with Bicknellski. He has qualms with BFL but they are separate from my discussion and this guide. He has his own guide here. Speak about ours separately, we don't act together.

The system is weighted heavily on the immediate past, so the delivered miners is referring to the monarchs. At this point, yes, you have only delivered a few, and yes, you have again amassed a backlog. Once you've shipped more, you'll get the 10 points same as anyone else.

I'm not sure how you can argue you don't use preorders, you have done, and you continue to do as your main business model. 65nm (for the vast majority) and your monarchs were both sold as preorder products, delivered in 2 weeks. Unless you're talking about this split second at which point the only things you're selling are 10GH miners @ $5/GH - I can't give you a pat on the back for that. If you do sell in hand Monarchs once your queue is cleared AND then don't sell preorders on whatever comes after then you'll of course get your deserved 20 points. Heck, I'll even send you a prize in the post if I can get it through customs

Refund issues stick much longer through history. The tldr is why did people have to sue individually and class action if you were issuing refund fluidly? You might be doing fine at the moment, but unfortunately this one sticks longer than the others. Have a look at the other companies though, you're not alone.

Regarding communication, remember that the standard is 7. You don't have to do much at all to drop down to 4. You have a 1 because there is too much smoke. The catchphrase 2 weeks doesn't just appear without reason. You ban anyone who says ANYTHING negative about you on your forums, and say the rest of the world is out to get you. Maybe you have self justified some tilted reasons, but it doesn't help your customers. Oh, and you don't declare everyone else who disagrees with you as a troll (and pay people to discredit them).

I didn't create your category, you did. First with the bad company performance to make it the lowest/near lowest performing company, and then again with the smear campaign as an ethical infraction. You've done well to actually raise your company out of the BFL scoring category which if you stay out of it next time can finally be renamed!!!!. You were the only company in it for so long it only made sense it call it the BFL tier. Remember VMC is bankrupt and doesn't exist.

But yeah, if I arbitrarily set companies I didn't like to 1 then why would I have just raised BFLs score more than any other company in the latest update? According to you I'm highly biased against you.