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Topic: Is taxation theft? - page 40. (Read 75960 times)

hero member
Activity: 621
Merit: 500
May 24, 2017, 02:10:37 PM
...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

Cool

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

Cool

Yes, the taxation is absolutely incorrectly constructed and in some cases it is not even necessary. The state simply wants to control all the money in the country.

There is no such thing as "the state".

It is a mental construct.

It exists only because people create it and maintain it from moment to moment.

-

More practically, what you call "the state" is any particular individual who acts in what he or she thinks is the interests of that construct. A poor soul, what Carl Jung called "a mass man", who has no individual identity but projects their will onto a construct in place of the heroes and legends that serve for more healthy growth.

-

Even more practically, there are services that are necessary and which are difficult for one person to arrange. For that reason taxation is appropriate in allowing useful projects. Unfortunately the mass creatures, or "servents of the beast" or whatever you want to call them, have inflicted their pathology on the system and turned useful and necessary things into problems. 
I'm sure that practically people pay taxes is in slavery in the state itself. And it's all because these taxes are imposed and often they even exceed the permissible standards. Of course I understand that there are countries with liberal laws, concerning taxation, but this is not always the case.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
May 24, 2017, 02:03:52 PM
...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

Cool

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

Cool

Yes, the taxation is absolutely incorrectly constructed and in some cases it is not even necessary. The state simply wants to control all the money in the country.

There is no such thing as "the state".

It is a mental construct.

It exists only because people create it and maintain it from moment to moment.

-

More practically, what you call "the state" is any particular individual who acts in what he or she thinks is the interests of that construct. A poor soul, what Carl Jung called "a mass man", who has no individual identity but projects their will onto a construct in place of the heroes and legends that serve for more healthy growth.

-

Even more practically, there are services that are necessary and which are difficult for one person to arrange. For that reason taxation is appropriate in allowing useful projects. Unfortunately the mass creatures, or "servents of the beast" or whatever you want to call them, have inflicted their pathology on the system and turned useful and necessary things into problems. 
full member
Activity: 364
Merit: 100
May 24, 2017, 01:44:09 PM
...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

Cool

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

Cool

Yes, the taxation is absolutely incorrectly constructed and in some cases it is not even necessary. The state simply wants to control all the money in the country.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 24, 2017, 11:46:52 AM
...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

Cool

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.

Taxation isn't free trade. Taxation isn't fair, because some people get more than they paid for, and some people get less.

Cool
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
May 24, 2017, 11:40:48 AM
...
Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

Cool

They earn property the same way everybody else does, by taking it from others.
full member
Activity: 173
Merit: 100
May 24, 2017, 11:29:06 AM
Taxation has been in existence in the old days and it is use to provide infrastructure and to improve the conditions of the people living in the country except such money is use for personal gain that is due to the government

Now the government uses most of this money for its own needs. Before, people paid tribute to different kings or kings. So taxes are slavery.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 24, 2017, 11:19:17 AM
BADecker are you even aware of the benefits of a country and governments?

You DO understand that it brings efficiency and stability through mutualization of costs risks responsabilities and profits?
That's the main point of a community. That's what the market, private industries and single individuals will never be able to bring simply because they're not meant to:

Optimization and mutualization around a shared moral value.
There is no moral in the market.
If it the way to maximize profits is to simply deny the rights of those who paid for your services long enough until they die they will do it. That's exactly what's happening in USA right now.

What does awareness have to do with it? Are you trying to tax me right now by saying that I can't have my freedom?

The question isn't the benefits that Government offers. The question is my freedom to accept or decline those benefits.

The further question is my being forced to work to supply other people with those benefits.

The point doesn't have anything to do with benefits, their quality, or even their availability. The question has to do with some people forcing other people to do something that they don't want. And the further point is using subtle trickery to force them and look righteous while doing it.

Government people are ever so smart. They know what is best for me. That's why they have to take my property, because they aren't smart enough to earn it on their own.

Cool
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 529
May 24, 2017, 09:21:40 AM
BADecker are you even aware of the benefits of a country and governments?

Benefits that someone would voluntarily pay for?

Yup and gladly.

People who want to stop paying for all that are in 3 categories:
-Stupid people. Nothing to say here.
-People who used the system (helthcare, studies, roads...) successed and then suddenly decide that the redistribution of wealth isn't a good thing
-People who don't understand that there is strengh in number and those ones are pretty close to the first category to be honest.
sr. member
Activity: 343
Merit: 250
May 24, 2017, 08:14:48 AM
Taxation has been in existence in the old days and it is use to provide infrastructure and to improve the conditions of the people living in the country except such money is use for personal gain that is due to the government
full member
Activity: 243
Merit: 100
Blockchain with solar energy
May 24, 2017, 06:46:56 AM
I don't think such type of issue.
no one can live without money, so how can a government run..?  how they can offer to us many social, educational and medical service if they don't have any money. if they can't collect tax or fees then how can they prepare their fiscal policy? so the government has to collect the tax which should not be described as a theft.

The state can print paper money in any quantity to ensure the financial needs of the country, but they specifically do not allow people to develop and steal money from them under the guise of paying taxes.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
May 24, 2017, 06:41:01 AM
BADecker are you even aware of the benefits of a country and governments?

Benefits that someone would voluntarily pay for?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 529
May 24, 2017, 06:03:53 AM
I don't think such type of issue.
no one can live without money, so how can a government run..?  how they can offer to us many social, educational and medical service if they don't have any money. if they can't collect tax or fees then how can they prepare their fiscal policy? so the government has to collect the tax which should not be described as a theft.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 529
May 24, 2017, 04:48:43 AM
BADecker are you even aware of the benefits of a country and governments?

You DO understand that it brings efficiency and stability through mutualization of costs risks responsabilities and profits?
That's the main point of a community. That's what the market, private industries and single individuals will never be able to bring simply because they're not meant to:

Optimization and mutualization around a shared moral value.
There is no moral in the market.
If it the way to maximize profits is to simply deny the rights of those who paid for your services long enough until they die they will do it. That's exactly what's happening in USA right now.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 23, 2017, 10:13:49 PM
Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs
Taxes will become more worthy when they do this on another thing like upgrading system or road is not a theft at all it can help our economics into more upgradable into next generation nowadays taxes are becoming high i don't even know whats the reason behind.

Many people want a government. They can get together and make whatever government they want FOR THEMSELVES, like a club. If someone on the outside wants to join, he can do so if he pays his dues (taxes). We do this with all kinds of clubs around the world right now.

If you are an American, do you pay taxes to Japan? NO, of course not. Why not? you are not a member of that "club." So, why force non-members of the government club of any nation to pay taxes to their own nation?

Rather, offer them a schedule of things that the government will provide. If they accept, treat it as a purchase, with itemization, like when you go to a store, and get a cash register receipt.


For example. All over Europe there are countries/nations that are not what their people want. Where is the nation of Thrace, that made up what is now part of Greece, Turkey, and Bulgaria? It doesn't exist. But the people do. These people don't want to identify with any of these countries. They want their Thrace.

Thracians are forced into one of the three countries that took over Thrace, so that Thrace doesn't formally exist any longer. They pay taxes, and maybe a certain homage, to that country that is foreign to them. They are forced into it.

This is what taxation is in any country. Even though the people of a particular country are not people of a different, former nation, they still may not want taxes. But they are forced into it by those who DO want taxes. It's like having two nations within a nation. One of the nations forces everybody to pay taxes, and usually supplies false data as to how many of the people want to pay taxes, just to make it look like most of the people do. They use every tactic to keep tax money coming in, and to hide what it is really being used for.


TheTinyDot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6b70TUbdfs


Cool
hero member
Activity: 2170
Merit: 530
May 23, 2017, 06:57:00 PM
Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs
Taxes will become more worthy when they do this on another thing like upgrading system or road is not a theft at all it can help our economics into more upgradable into next generation nowadays taxes are becoming high i don't even know whats the reason behind.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 23, 2017, 05:35:20 PM

You make great comparison with communism - Ive lived through it.

You know where that lead to? Very, very small group of people (politbyro, but you can call them papacy aswell), who knew each other held responsibility for redistribution of wealth (social justice, but could be called salvation) in the name of the state (god).

These men were very close to historical definition of demi gods. Tasked to administer collective means of production and development, since private property was not really an option. At different time periods taking or protecting lives seemingly at whim.

Democracy, that westerners taky for granted is quite fragile thing, tied intimately to the relationship between means of production and its owners. Take common men out of this equation and their role in the political system will diminish aswell. You are right, you would be probadly well fed and clothed in such system (as it will be obligation of upper class in such social contract), however ultimately you would lead a life of pet in a nice cage.

I am not forcing this view on you, just sharing my experience and perhaps hoping it will make you think.



THAT IS WHERE THE ANSWER LIES!

The problem is in fact what you've lived through and what USSR knew has never been communism. Yeah we called that communism but it was not. It was a simple and plain oligarchy with a group of people having all the powers.

But you'll tell me, it can only become this. Socialism and communism can only lead to that as the state will take more and more and "redistribute"... But only a few people will decide how it is redistributed!

WELL NO!
There is a solution now! Direct democracy.
Imagine this: a country with high taxation where the people rather than elected a king for a few years who will decide everything, people actually vote directly the laws and the budget.
Then there is no politbyro as you say. Because we all give and all decide equally.

That can sounds as an utopia but... Technologically it's fairly easy to do. What is really opposing that?

Forget direct democracy. I don't want the other half of the people telling me what I can do or not do.

There is a solution. Freedom. Everyone does what he wants as long as he doesn'g harm anyone else.

Buy the services you wnat.

If Government is launched, it is launched only for a short time voted on by the people, but never more than a month.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
May 23, 2017, 05:28:15 PM

Interesting.

There is a human component to build the robot and program it to function in a certain way.  But the human component is decreasing.  You already have robots that make robots, programmed by human.  But AI will likely be here this century, which would mean there doesn't need to be any human input at all.  You don't need to pay robots, they don't need breaks or holidays...so they generate value that can either go to the owners (like in our current economic system), or to be for the benefit of civilization, or a combination of both.

I don't insist on that notion of obligation, but I feel like humanity will likely move in that direction.  The old and present model of being paid money for hours of human labour...I feel will need to change with automation.  Think of taxi drivers and alternative paid transportation like uber...imagine how it will be affected by driverless cars with autopilot and gps.  There are many other industries that will get affected similarly and those jobs will go away over time.  It's even in the best interest of rich people, to have a middle class.  If it's only super rich and poor, then it can become unsafe for a rich person.

Look at Elon Musk for example...he is voluntarily trying to make a positive impact on the environment through sustainable energy (solar), battery storage and electric cars.  I think there will be more people that take that model of work, where they are super smart, understand how to acquire huge resources, and the use those resources to innovate technology that will help humanity as a whole, even though it is for profit...the impact is positive.

But in terms of what will humanity do in return for having their basic needs provided...I'm not sure.  Society would be very different if the extreme struggle associated with fulfilling basic needs was completely removed.  I think people would be two ways to go.  The lazy people can just chill, and be content.  And others would follow their passions, which may result in some type of mastery and contribution back to society.  Personally, if that was the way society was at the moment, and my basic needs were taken care of, I would follow my passions and dedicate myself to get as good as I could possibly get.  And maybe if I get good enough, I can produce a good or service that people would enjoy.  Actually sounds like a communist approach...but a very technologically advanced execution lol.


You make great comparison with communism - Ive lived through it.

You know where that lead to? Very, very small group of people (politbyro, but you can call them papacy aswell), who knew each other held responsibility for redistribution of wealth (social justice, but could be called salvation) in the name of the state (god). It is called democratic centralism and is still practiced by Peoples republic of China.

These men were very close to historical definition of demi gods. Tasked to administer collective means of production and development, since private property was not really an option. At different time periods taking or protecting lives seemingly at whim.

Democracy, that westerners taky for granted is quite fragile thing, tied intimately to the relationship between means of production and its owners. Take common men out of this equation and their role in the political system will diminish aswell. You are right, you would be probadly well fed and clothed in such system (as it will be obligation of upper class in such social contract), however ultimately you would lead a life of pet in a nice cage.

I am not forcing this view on you, just sharing my experience and perhaps hoping it will make you think.


Good points and discussion.  I have not personally lived in a communism system, and from what I have heard about it, it was not well executed.  I think any economic platform, whether it be communism, socialism or capitalism, needs to be executed properly.  I don't see any examples of any of them with good execution.  They all involve either government corruption (acting with self interest over the public's interests) or a complete disregard for the environment.  Historical examples of communism don't include high civil liberty...but it can in theory.

In terms of the politburo...the key would be to not have politicians...but the actual technological innovators and scientists.  Politicians are a complete waste and unnecessary.  Once you have internet and people have connectivity, I don't see the point in having "representatives".

Western democracy is weird as well.  There is a lot of corruption in the process of selecting candidates, and having corporate interests fund them.  That election had Trump vs. Clinton.  These are not ideal leaders by any means, but they are able to do whatever it takes politically to navigate through the system and satisfy their own self interests.  Actual leaders don't seem to get involved with politics.

This is simply a thought that has nothing to do with our reality.  For it to ever get to that point, we would need a conscious population...with a hive mentality.  Similar to how a bee does what is needed for the hive, and not himself or herself.  There is no personal interest outside of the success of the hive as a whole.  It will take some time before we get there, if we can ever get there before destroying ourselves.
full member
Activity: 236
Merit: 100
Presale is live!
May 23, 2017, 11:21:32 AM
No, taxation is not theft.
Technically it is extortion.
Theft is the forced taking. They do not take it forcefully. They threaten you with the use of force unless you hand them your money. Which is extortion.
That is the exact opinion about taxation,the governments are running their noses into each and every individuals accounts and threaten to give a share of what we make which is really crazy and if we losses our job the government wont stick their end to recover from the loss we are to encounter.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 506
May 23, 2017, 07:46:05 AM

You make great comparison with communism - Ive lived through it.

You know where that lead to? Very, very small group of people (politbyro, but you can call them papacy aswell), who knew each other held responsibility for redistribution of wealth (social justice, but could be called salvation) in the name of the state (god).

These men were very close to historical definition of demi gods. Tasked to administer collective means of production and development, since private property was not really an option. At different time periods taking or protecting lives seemingly at whim.

Democracy, that westerners taky for granted is quite fragile thing, tied intimately to the relationship between means of production and its owners. Take common men out of this equation and their role in the political system will diminish aswell. You are right, you would be probadly well fed and clothed in such system (as it will be obligation of upper class in such social contract), however ultimately you would lead a life of pet in a nice cage.

I am not forcing this view on you, just sharing my experience and perhaps hoping it will make you think.



THAT IS WHERE THE ANSWER LIES!

The problem is in fact what you've lived through and what USSR knew has never been communism. Yeah we called that communism but it was not. It was a simple and plain oligarchy with a group of people having all the powers.

But you'll tell me, it can only become this. Socialism and communism can only lead to that as the state will take more and more and "redistribute"... But only a few people will decide how it is redistributed!

WELL NO!
There is a solution now! Direct democracy.
Imagine this: a country with high taxation where the people rather than elected a king for a few years who will decide everything, people actually vote directly the laws and the budget.
Then there is no politbyro as you say. Because we all give and all decide equally.

That can sounds as an utopia but... Technologically it's fairly easy to do. What is really opposing that?

Cracked5, I have personal experience in communal politics - which is direct democracy, was so even in USSR era. And every time, even on the communal level the decision process was hijacked by one, two or atmost five people through charismatic individual or backing of some shady baron. Essentially turning rest of the people into good looking bystanders. That goes for "new parties" like Pirates aswell.

But dont believe me, rather let me show you something.

This is number of bill and laws introduced by US congress. Every single of those has A LOT of text and interdependancy on already existing rules. You want to force population to vote informatively on every single one of them yes?



This is only the fraction of bills that are actually passed on into legislature. It would be far more in case of failed projects. Your solution to natural centralization of power is therefore to let every single citizen vote on three laws per day? Ive seen that in Pirate party. Less than third was active, usually divided into two camps - increasingly radical, marginalized opposition and ever vigilant group concentrated around charismatic leader - hilariously the two camps did not define themselves by any ideology anymore, but by personal feelings towards elected leader. Average Joes barely able to atleast read through all the instristically written text focused on giving one particular agency leverage over the others.

I hope, I wont offend you, thats why I am not here. But you are not offering something new, it was all tried before. Even by bolsheviks in Russia before all the terror started. Dont take my word for it. Look it up.

Unlike what you believe - it was communism. Private ownership was all but abolished and all means of production were controlled by elected individuals (and eventually tightly knit clans, Game of Thrones style). The rest was direct result of it, not vice versa.

If you were religious (I know you are not), youd by now undestand, that there is no such thing as perfect system, as it would deny the very nature of human existence. System that would duke out moral battles for individuals, would also deprive them of their humanity, which I saw with my own eyes in my youth.

If you want to know what direct democracy with everybody equal means, forget bitcoin for just one minute and google "Lord of flies".
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 506
May 23, 2017, 07:30:43 AM
Quote
Lol, massive debt I agree on that one even though it's easily explanable by both the euro and the young population, but third word security? Seriously? xD

Well, yes. Just couple of days ago, there was yet another demonstration in the center of Paris. Working class women are hunted like prey in the streets, while still giving away half of their income to the state in exchange for empty promises. There is something... evil about system like that.

https://heatst.com/world/women-in-paris-protest-against-immigrant-men-sexually-harassing-them/

Quote
I... am. Not all of course but a good part of my profit goes in taxes, that's normal and fair, even though I'd love to be able to control more where the money goes that's for sure.

Precisely! You took all the risks, you and only you will be held accountable for failure of the enterprise. So it is not just just but also completely natural, that you and nobody else should decide where profit goes. You can make compromises, but you stopped being slave at plantation of someone else the moment you took full responsiblity for the future of bussiness.


Quote
And what do we do when people who earn lots of money refuse to help?

The problem here you see is the fact that state invest in people.
I'll take my own example:
I'm from a rather poor family (not desperate but not middle class either) and I've made top notch scientific studies and am now an engineer who earns more in a month than both his parents combined. The fact is that yeah sure I became like this thanks to hard working, years of studies and my own skills. But not only.
I should not forget that I was able to do all this also because education is not only free but you're also helped by the state which pays you an appartment and food when you study and you're from a poor family. I should not forget that when my mother in law had a cancer, state paid for her cure during the whole year and paid here a part of her salary.

Sure hardworking is important and goodwill is better. But now suppose we "let the choice" to people as you say, and I chose to refuse to pay because I don't see the support the State gave me but I only see my own work and my years of struggle and I decide that people should just "work more". Then the virtuous circle is broken :/

Thats the point of contention and we can discuss it. But lets not pretend its completely normal for the system to take everything and (as shown on the example of Paris above) give back nothing. Taxation and redistribution of any wealth should be constantly re-negationed. State is our tool, not vice versa.
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