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Topic: Is taxation theft? - page 44. (Read 75960 times)

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 15, 2017, 08:36:15 AM
Quote

Go the other way. But it all as you wish, not as you are forced. Free enterprise in government. Buy the government services you want rather than being forced through taxation.
Nope, the principle of taxation is that you pay what you can and you get what you need.
That's not possible with just public services.


The principle of taxation is that you pay. Often you don't get what you think you are paying for. Often you get things you don't want or need.

Get rid of taxation. Buy what you want or need. If Government is the best supplier, buy it from Government. But, be allowed to choose rather than forced.

Cool

And if you can't because you don't have the money for it? :/
Look at USA, numerous people, even with good insurance, simply don't have the money to pay for healthcare...

I don't like the idea of death, either. But all people seem to die sooner or later.

No money? Work for it. Don't steal it from others, even by hiring a bunch of government people to do the robbery for you through taxation.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
May 15, 2017, 08:33:58 AM
Quote

Go the other way. But it all as you wish, not as you are forced. Free enterprise in government. Buy the government services you want rather than being forced through taxation.
Nope, the principle of taxation is that you pay what you can and you get what you need.
That's not possible with just public services.


The principle of taxation is that you pay. Often you don't get what you think you are paying for. Often you get things you don't want or need.

Get rid of taxation. Buy what you want or need. If Government is the best supplier, buy it from Government. But, be allowed to choose rather than forced.

Cool

And if you can't because you don't have the money for it? :/
Look at USA, numerous people, even with good insurance, simply don't have the money to pay for healthcare...
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 15, 2017, 08:24:25 AM
Quote

Go the other way. But it all as you wish, not as you are forced. Free enterprise in government. Buy the government services you want rather than being forced through taxation.
Nope, the principle of taxation is that you pay what you can and you get what you need.
That's not possible with just public services.


The principle of taxation is that you pay. Often you don't get what you think you are paying for. Often you get things you don't want or need.

Get rid of taxation. Buy what you want or need. If Government is the best supplier, buy it from Government. But, be allowed to choose rather than forced.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
May 15, 2017, 08:18:12 AM
If taxation isn't theft, then what is it?

If you give your taxes willingly, then it is a donation.

If you pay taxes because you are forced to do it, it is theft.

Cool

It's not simply because you also receive something from the tax taken.

If you renounce to everything tax is funding you no longer have to pay tax. That's obvious and that's reality.

Taxation allows the taxation people to do with the money whatever they want.

When you go to the store to buy apples and milk, you pay for them and get a receipt. Why not have to pay? Why not simply pay taxes and get your milk and apples free?
Not a bad idea.
Quote

They tried that in the USSR, and it didn't work out, even though it lasted for a long time.
Nope they didn't try that. Calling USSR communist is just the usual dumb West propaganda.
Quote
The only reason the socialistic "free" countries of Europe are lasting is because they maintain some free enterprise beyond taxation.
What are you talking about?
Quote

Go the other way. But it all as you wish, not as you are forced. Free enterprise in government. Buy the government services you want rather than being forced through taxation.
Nope, the principle of taxation is that you pay what you can and you get what you need.
That's not possible with just public services.
Quote

Cool
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 15, 2017, 08:04:25 AM
If taxation isn't theft, then what is it?

If you give your taxes willingly, then it is a donation.

If you pay taxes because you are forced to do it, it is theft.

Cool

It's not simply because you also receive something from the tax taken.

If you renounce to everything tax is funding you no longer have to pay tax. That's obvious and that's reality.

Taxation allows the taxation people to do with the money whatever they want.

When you go to the store to buy apples and milk, you pay for them and get a receipt. Why not have to pay? Why not simply pay taxes and get your milk and apples free?

They tried that in the USSR, and it didn't work out, even though it lasted for a long time. The only reason the socialistic "free" countries of Europe are lasting is because they maintain some free enterprise beyond taxation.

Go the other way. But it all as you wish, not as you are forced. Free enterprise in government. Buy the government services you want rather than being forced through taxation.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
May 15, 2017, 07:56:39 AM
If taxation isn't theft, then what is it?

If you give your taxes willingly, then it is a donation.

If you pay taxes because you are forced to do it, it is theft.

Cool

It's not simply because you also receive something from the tax taken.

If you renounce to everything tax is funding you no longer have to pay tax. That's obvious and that's reality.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 15, 2017, 07:51:53 AM
Before anyone complains about taxation being thievery, that person should tell us who pays the Policeman,Soldiers,Firemen and how come they had hospitals to go to and who pays for the roads they drive on. Its a give and take example, You pay taxes and the Government provide these.

Forget Government. Do you want fire protection? How about police protection? How about soldier protection and hospitals? Forget taxes. Buy what you want. That way you don't have to buy a bunch of BS that you don't want. And, there will be competition among the service offerers, so the prices will come down. And you will easily be able to take the service providers to court if they don't follow through.

Cool

Suuuuuuuuuuuure
Let's everything become private! Why not?
I mean what's private in USA and is not in civilized countries? Healthcare.
And how is USA doing in healthcare?

healthcare: 37. Just better than Slovenia, you're doing great yeah!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

Oh look at that! All the 10 best healthcare system in the world are public ones funded by taxation!!!
Could there be a link?

Nah must be just because USA isn't lucky.


Are you trying to sell people on an idea here? Or are you simply in favor of stealing property from people to accomplish a less expensive system for yourself?

Statistics regarding government services through taxation are going to be warped. Why? Because government is a money-making machine. And the statistics they put out, or allow to be put out, are going to be doctored so that they can eliminate as much of the competition as possible.

Hitler did it. Stalin did it. But in America, they have learned through the failure of Hitler and the failure of the USSR that you have to remain unknown, behind the scenes, if you want success. That's why the real Government in America isn't the President and Congress... or even the judicial system.

Cool

Oh it's YOU PEOPLE who are trying to sell an idea here.
The idea that tax is theft.
Well it's simply not true. Tax is optimization and shared responsability.

"Statistics regarding government services through taxation are going to be warped. Why? Because government is a money-making machine." dumb, it doesn't change the money SPENT.
It's not because they can print money that it's not more efficient.

If taxation isn't theft, then what is it?

If you give your taxes willingly, then it is a donation.

If you pay taxes because you are forced to do it, it is theft.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
May 15, 2017, 07:49:56 AM
Before anyone complains about taxation being thievery, that person should tell us who pays the Policeman,Soldiers,Firemen and how come they had hospitals to go to and who pays for the roads they drive on. Its a give and take example, You pay taxes and the Government provide these.

Forget Government. Do you want fire protection? How about police protection? How about soldier protection and hospitals? Forget taxes. Buy what you want. That way you don't have to buy a bunch of BS that you don't want. And, there will be competition among the service offerers, so the prices will come down. And you will easily be able to take the service providers to court if they don't follow through.

Cool

Suuuuuuuuuuuure
Let's everything become private! Why not?
I mean what's private in USA and is not in civilized countries? Healthcare.
And how is USA doing in healthcare?

healthcare: 37. Just better than Slovenia, you're doing great yeah!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

Oh look at that! All the 10 best healthcare system in the world are public ones funded by taxation!!!
Could there be a link?

Nah must be just because USA isn't lucky.


Are you trying to sell people on an idea here? Or are you simply in favor of stealing property from people to accomplish a less expensive system for yourself?

Statistics regarding government services through taxation are going to be warped. Why? Because government is a money-making machine. And the statistics they put out, or allow to be put out, are going to be doctored so that they can eliminate as much of the competition as possible.

Hitler did it. Stalin did it. But in America, they have learned through the failure of Hitler and the failure of the USSR that you have to remain unknown, behind the scenes, if you want success. That's why the real Government in America isn't the President and Congress... or even the judicial system.

Cool

Oh it's YOU PEOPLE who are trying to sell an idea here.
The idea that tax is theft.
Well it's simply not true. Tax is optimization and shared responsability.

"Statistics regarding government services through taxation are going to be warped. Why? Because government is a money-making machine." dumb, it doesn't change the money SPENT.
It's not because they can print money that it's not more efficient.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 15, 2017, 06:27:42 AM
Before anyone complains about taxation being thievery, that person should tell us who pays the Policeman,Soldiers,Firemen and how come they had hospitals to go to and who pays for the roads they drive on. Its a give and take example, You pay taxes and the Government provide these.

Forget Government. Do you want fire protection? How about police protection? How about soldier protection and hospitals? Forget taxes. Buy what you want. That way you don't have to buy a bunch of BS that you don't want. And, there will be competition among the service offerers, so the prices will come down. And you will easily be able to take the service providers to court if they don't follow through.

Cool

Suuuuuuuuuuuure
Let's everything become private! Why not?
I mean what's private in USA and is not in civilized countries? Healthcare.
And how is USA doing in healthcare?

healthcare: 37. Just better than Slovenia, you're doing great yeah!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

Oh look at that! All the 10 best healthcare system in the world are public ones funded by taxation!!!
Could there be a link?

Nah must be just because USA isn't lucky.


Are you trying to sell people on an idea here? Or are you simply in favor of stealing property from people to accomplish a less expensive system for yourself?

Statistics regarding government services through taxation are going to be warped. Why? Because government is a money-making machine. And the statistics they put out, or allow to be put out, are going to be doctored so that they can eliminate as much of the competition as possible.

Hitler did it. Stalin did it. But in America, they have learned through the failure of Hitler and the failure of the USSR that you have to remain unknown, behind the scenes, if you want success. That's why the real Government in America isn't the President and Congress... or even the judicial system.

Cool
full member
Activity: 206
Merit: 100
May 15, 2017, 05:03:28 AM
It is legal theft to me. The legal theft of the powers so called governments all around the world.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 529
May 15, 2017, 04:21:02 AM
Before anyone complains about taxation being thievery, that person should tell us who pays the Policeman,Soldiers,Firemen and how come they had hospitals to go to and who pays for the roads they drive on. Its a give and take example, You pay taxes and the Government provide these.

Forget Government. Do you want fire protection? How about police protection? How about soldier protection and hospitals? Forget taxes. Buy what you want. That way you don't have to buy a bunch of BS that you don't want. And, there will be competition among the service offerers, so the prices will come down. And you will easily be able to take the service providers to court if they don't follow through.

Cool

Suuuuuuuuuuuure
Let's everything become private! Why not?
I mean what's private in USA and is not in civilized countries? Healthcare.
And how is USA doing in healthcare?

healthcare: 37. Just better than Slovenia, you're doing great yeah!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

Oh look at that! All the 10 best healthcare system in the world are public ones funded by taxation!!!
Could there be a link?

Nah must be just because USA isn't lucky.

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 14, 2017, 07:28:40 PM
Before anyone complains about taxation being thievery, that person should tell us who pays the Policeman,Soldiers,Firemen and how come they had hospitals to go to and who pays for the roads they drive on. Its a give and take example, You pay taxes and the Government provide these.

Forget Government. Do you want fire protection? How about police protection? How about soldier protection and hospitals? Forget taxes. Buy what you want. That way you don't have to buy a bunch of BS that you don't want. And, there will be competition among the service offerers, so the prices will come down. And you will easily be able to take the service providers to court if they don't follow through.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 518
Merit: 250
Fast, Smart, Trustworthy
May 14, 2017, 07:13:52 PM
Before anyone complains about taxation being thievery, that person should tell us who pays the Policeman,Soldiers,Firemen and how come they had hospitals to go to and who pays for the roads they drive on. Its a give and take example, You pay taxes and the Government provide these.
In reality you are right, but it is necessary to have common sense to select taxes from citizens, and not to tax everything and always. But the financing of government structures is people's concern.
sr. member
Activity: 644
Merit: 259
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
May 14, 2017, 06:44:19 PM
Before anyone complains about taxation being thievery, that person should tell us who pays the Policeman,Soldiers,Firemen and how come they had hospitals to go to and who pays for the roads they drive on. Its a give and take example, You pay taxes and the Government provide these.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 14, 2017, 09:59:22 AM
Taxation itself is not a theft. Its just a way of collecting money from the people to create a better environment.  The problem is the people handling the tax money. If they are good then we are good, if not then we're in trouble.

In addition, paying tax is a responsibility to each of the citizens in a particular country inorder to contribute something to its growth which not just you but everyone will also benefit from it. It is true that those who are handling taxes are the ones who committed theft but not the tax itself. Just think about the roads, the facilities and other that have been made possible through taxes that benefits you and others either directly or indirectly is a proof that in order for a country to survuve and improve itself it needs tax by the help of its people.

If a person is a citizen of a country, he is like a member of a family. He is such by agreement, because he can always leave. So, if the country says to pay taxes, he should follow his agreement, and pay taxes.

In America, the U.S. foundational documents - the Constitution and the Amendments - say no income tax. All the laws in America hang on these foundational documents. Any laws that say to pay income taxes are not part of the laws of the U.S.

IRS taxes are not part of the laws. The thing that happens in America that makes people liable for the IRS tax is twofold:
1. People voluntarily allow the IRS to tax them (making it not entirely a tax);
2. The IRS tricks people into losing court battles.

Craig Lynch has posted free snippets of Karl Lentz's talks at https://www.youtube.com/user/765736/videos?view=0&live_view=500&flow=grid&sort=da and https://www.youtube.com/user/765736. Search through these snippets for those that have IRS or other words pertaining to the IRS in them. Learn how to legally, morally, ethically, and rightly stop paying income taxes.

This Karl Lentz stuff pertains, with slight changes, to Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Belize, Guyana (S.A.), and even India and several smaller countries around India, as well as to the USA.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
May 14, 2017, 12:01:41 AM
Taxation itself is not a theft. Its just a way of collecting money from the people to create a better environment.  The problem is the people handling the tax money. If they are good then we are good, if not then we're in trouble.

In addition, paying tax is a responsibility to each of the citizens in a particular country inorder to contribute something to its growth which not just you but everyone will also benefit from it. It is true that those who are handling taxes are the ones who committed theft but not the tax itself. Just think about the roads, the facilities and other that have been made possible through taxes that benefits you and others either directly or indirectly is a proof that in order for a country to survuve and improve itself it needs tax by the help of its people.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 252
May 13, 2017, 11:45:11 PM
I have nothing against your opinion of government or the system.  What kind of slavery do you speak of? 
The job market, the new slavery of our 21st century.
Quote

Prices can be regulated possibly, but the more common approach is to leave the price as it is and "subsidize" the cost for the buyer.  So prices will remain high, but a portion of our taxes would go towards the payment.  They can manipulate it either way really.

The point was that you said to give an example where private companies offer better service than public, and I gave an example of pathetic public service.  You wouldn't get that with a private company because you can simply choose not to do business with them ever again.  Eventually if everyone shared that sentiment, they'd have to improve their service or eventually go out of business.
Completely wrong that's where the problem is :/
What you're describing is in a beautiful word with fair competition...
What actually happens is that the really big corporation are at first very competitive. They provide great services and innovate a lot...
Then as time goes by they have less and less concurents and become more and more powerful. And at a point they have a monopole in their sector, then they can do whatever they want.
That's what's happening in the whole insurance and banking system for example. But the same is true in great distribution, food production etc...
Quote

I never said the health care in Canada is bad.  It's okay, but it is expensive and takes up a large chunk of our taxes.  But I know of wealthier folks that need serious medical attention fly over to the states to get their procedures done.

I'm not sure where you got the France vs. USA healthcare dollars from, but let's assume it's accurate.  You realize that the USA has a reactive healthcare system right?  And that the USA has by far the most unhealthy population in the world, which would require more reactive health care??
The reason it has a high dollar amount is because of the # of customers (unhealthy people requiring medical attention).  Europe in general is much more health conscious and eats more whole foods/less processed foods.  Finland for example has chef's in schools that teach kids about cooking and eating healthy.  I grew up with a cafeteria that sold burgers, pizza and fries, a McDonalds next to our high school and a vending machine that only sold pop/soda.  Why would we be as healthy as France?  Unless you take your health into your own hands, educate yourself on diet and have routine physical activity, the default is to eat garbage and get obese...and look at who has the most obese population in the world.
So you mean Americans are 2.5 times more sick than Europeans?
No. That's just too much.
The explanation I'm trying to make is that overwhole the healthcare system in France is more efficient than the American one... Why? Because as French health system is public, they don't have to make profit.

Let's put it simply: a public service has to provide the same thing than a private one but WITHOUT MAKING PROFIT NOR ADVERTISEMENT
Then it's simply mathematically obvious that a public service will be less expensive...

USA is the country where everything is private. Economic freedom at its best... Well look how great it is: http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Awfulness.html

I somewhat agree with the majority of jobs and especially corporate jobs.  But no one is forcing anyone to work those jobs.  I get when people that have very little economic resources feel compelled to continue to work low paying unsatisfying jobs, but at the end of the day, it can be difficult but they can build skills that are in demand and make more money, or do something they enjoy.  But without skill, those types of shitty low paying jobs are the only option, and there is a huge supply of unskilled workers.

I agree competition is not always fair, but you do understand that the barriers to entry are government regulations right?  You mentioned insurance and banks.  Highly regulated industries...that are not in a "free market" environment.  I can add telecommunications to the mix.  Kind of like an oligopoly.  But in Canada, all three of those industries are highly regulated, and we don't allow foreign competition.  This is a result of corporate lobbying influencing policy in the government.  There's nothing wrong with a corporation wanting to benefit from policy change...but it should be up to a benevolent government (in our particular system in present day, not that I think it's a good system) to ignore special interests and act for the interests of the taxpayers and citizens as a whole.  But they often put corporate interests ahead of consumers.  We do not allow foreign bank or telecom competition.  So again we are forced to deal with an oligopoly or not have that particular service at all, but the oligopoly is made possible with government intervention.  Our government sets the competitive landscape, even for private companies.

I would actually say that the USA and France have a health discrepancy over 2.5 times, but that's just an unsubstantiated subjective opinion.  And I've been to both countries multiple times.  There are parts of the states that are very healthy, but as a country, no bueno.

Some quick wikipedia info:
USA is #1 in depression in the world - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_depression
USA is #19 in obesity in the world - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Body_Mass_Index_(BMI)
USA is #6 in cancer rate in the world (France is #2 lol) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_cancer_rate

Anyways, this doesn't really prove anything, but on factors that affect health, they rank among the worst in the world per capita.  So the health care costs are going to be a function of having a relatively unhealthy population, having a standard approach to death with palliative care (expensive way to drug yourself into ecstacy as you drift out of existence) and efficiency of a dollar in your health care system.  Healthy population = less patients.

With respect to healthcare costs of public vs. private - it just depends on how the business is implemented and executed.  I think either can be made to be efficient with a high level of service if that's the goal.  Here, government jobs represent union negotiated raises (not on merit), 100% job security unless you assault, harass or murder someone, and when you do anything to fuck with their income, they threaten to go on strike and provide no service at all.  You can't tell me that these are servants of the public.  They serve themselves, and #2 priority is public service.  Our police cars say "to serve and protect" yet many people get an uneasy feeling when the person dedicated to "serving and protecting" you is around.

USA is mostly private, but with a corrupt (and large) government that hooks up special interests (corporations) which usually harm the consumer aka tax payer.   We have one highway that is kept better than all others in Toronto.  It's a private toll highway, and you need to pay each time you use it, on top of all your taxes for public roads.  That private road is kept better than other highways because it is competing for business, which is cars.  The more cars it can take, the more money it makes.  So it's in that companies best interest to keep the customers coming, by offering nice smooth roads, and less traffic.  Our public roads get pot holes and there is a long delay before anything is fixed, because they don't give a fuck.  And at the end of the day, I can almost guarantee that the construction costs (by distance) will be less than our public roads, because they will better negotiate with contractors when you're not playing around with guaranteed tax revenue, but your own money.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1027
May 13, 2017, 09:49:36 PM
It depends how you get taxed..

Like the people taxing our NHS for bitcoin the hackers..
I have one message to you ..
25 YEARS IN JAIL Wink..And you deserve it..

Plus you will destroy BITCOIN..It will get banned 100%..

Paper money if stealing you need to take it in person so much harder to steal..
BITCOIN which is basically money can be stolen without even moving out your home and never to be traced or found again..

I can imagine they send the money all around the world so by the time they find out they be long dead..

It's been passed to dave oh now it's been passed to peter and it will go on and on .
But i bet some coder done it so it passes through billions of people before it finally gets to them but sped up..

So i bet BITCOIN will get banned < if carries on ..THE NHS Shocked..You attack the sick..You are sick..

Cyber attacks < sit in your room and steal ..
LAZY FUCKERS Cheesy Cheesy..No climbing up buildings or nothing..So chances of getting caught very slim..

BUT if you do bye bye 25 years..You attacked our NHS you will pay with 25 years in jail..

We got crazy islams  we got crazy nerds ..

Could be crazy Islamic nerds .. Cheesy Everyone is a suspect before you Islams get on your high flying horse..  I said could be Wink..

But BITCOIN is in danger of getting banned ..Meaning 5 years in jail for promoting terrorism ..
No but that's what they could say.. Undecided
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
May 13, 2017, 03:47:33 PM
Taxation itself is not a theft. Its just a way of collecting money from the people to create a better environment.  The problem is the people handling the tax money. If they are good then we are good, if not then we're in trouble.

Who collects the money? Why, people of course. And who do they collect it from? People who like the environment a different way than the tax collectors. Who is right?

Environment is only one little issue in taxes. Taxation is simply this... some people using their freedom to take the freedom away from other people.

Shouldn't it be the other way around? shouldn't the other people take tax money away from the tax collectors? If not, why not? They are all just people. Many of the people won't agree with either group.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 663
Merit: 250
May 13, 2017, 03:41:28 PM
Taxation itself is not a theft. Its just a way of collecting money from the people to create a better environment.  The problem is the people handling the tax money. If they are good then we are good, if not then we're in trouble.
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