Is taxation theft? - page 50. | Bitcointalksearch.org

joromz1226

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Quote from: miki77miki on December 28, 2016, 08:24:52 PM

Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs

No! it is not a theft, it is legal actually. And it is also written in the Bible that we need to pay taxes. Now if some of the officials in the government are greed in money they can steal the some of the taxes in the government.

BADecker

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Quote from: Sithara007 on April 30, 2017, 12:09:45 AM

Quote from: ePesoInitiative on April 29, 2017, 01:29:49 PM

You could start your own country if you don't want to pay taxes. We supported our leaders to decide for us - what taxes to pay, what services we receive. If you don't like it, change the leaders or go make your own society.

It is not possible to start your own country. The entire planet is divided in to a number of nations, and there is no free space. Even the continent of Antarctica is owned by countries such as France and Norway. Not even the ocean is outside their jurisdiction.

The people of any nation can overthrow their government if they want to badly enough.

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Sithara007

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Quote from: ePesoInitiative on April 29, 2017, 01:29:49 PM

You could start your own country if you don't want to pay taxes. We supported our leaders to decide for us - what taxes to pay, what services we receive. If you don't like it, change the leaders or go make your own society.

It is not possible to start your own country. The entire planet is divided in to a number of nations, and there is no free space. Even the continent of Antarctica is owned by countries such as France and Norway. Not even the ocean is outside their jurisdiction.

BADecker

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Quote from: Marcus_2017 on April 29, 2017, 10:59:29 PM

Quote from: BADecker on April 29, 2017, 10:51:37 PM

Quote from: BTC STRATEGIST on April 29, 2017, 06:29:57 PM

Most on the economic left start from the assumption that it is all things being equal a bad thing that the state takes our money from us, but hold that this prima facie bad is justified by the public goods which taxation makes possible. Well-meaning [UK] public intellectual Alain de Botton encourages us to think of taxation as charity: we give up what’s ours for the greater good of our society.

You can get the same results by itemizing the things you want done, letting people donate for them, and then giving the benefits to those who donated. This is what a cooperative does.

Cooperatives are voluntary, act like governments, are worker/member supported, are beneficial to all members, and itemize where the money is being spent so that people get what they pay for, but don't get what they do not pay for.

A properly formed cooperative would be the absolute best form of government... no taxes... only purchases.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative for more info.

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For example, I heard such idea. That you cannot give alms to the poor. We do not know for what God is punishing this man. Such actions we get involved in divine punishment. Moreover what happens if the money that you will give him he will drink alcohol and kill someone?

I don't understand what you are saying.

In America, there are cooperatives operating right now. They usually use money. But some may not.

In Great Depression times (early 1930s), many cooperatives were formed in America where people worked together and supported each other. There was very little money, so the cooperatives operated without it. If the nation did this today, we could get by without the IRS.

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Marcus_2017

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Quote from: BADecker on April 29, 2017, 10:51:37 PM

Quote from: BTC STRATEGIST on April 29, 2017, 06:29:57 PM

Most on the economic left start from the assumption that it is all things being equal a bad thing that the state takes our money from us, but hold that this prima facie bad is justified by the public goods which taxation makes possible. Well-meaning [UK] public intellectual Alain de Botton encourages us to think of taxation as charity: we give up what’s ours for the greater good of our society.

You can get the same results by itemizing the things you want done, letting people donate for them, and then giving the benefits to those who donated. This is what a cooperative does.

Cooperatives are voluntary, act like governments, are worker/member supported, are beneficial to all members, and itemize where the money is being spent so that people get what they pay for, but don't get what they do not pay for.

A properly formed cooperative would be the absolute best form of government... no taxes... only purchases.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative for more info.

Cool

For example, I heard such idea. That you cannot give alms to the poor. We do not know for what God is punishing this man. Such actions we get involved in divine punishment. Moreover what happens if the money that you will give him he will drink alcohol and kill someone?

BADecker

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Quote from: BTC STRATEGIST on April 29, 2017, 06:29:57 PM

Most on the economic left start from the assumption that it is all things being equal a bad thing that the state takes our money from us, but hold that this prima facie bad is justified by the public goods which taxation makes possible. Well-meaning [UK] public intellectual Alain de Botton encourages us to think of taxation as charity: we give up what’s ours for the greater good of our society.

You can get the same results by itemizing the things you want done, letting people donate for them, and then giving the benefits to those who donated. This is what a cooperative does.

Cooperatives are voluntary, act like governments, are worker/member supported, are beneficial to all members, and itemize where the money is being spent so that people get what they pay for, but don't get what they do not pay for.

A properly formed cooperative would be the absolute best form of government... no taxes... only purchases.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative for more info.

Cool

BTC STRATEGIST

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Most on the economic left start from the assumption that it is all things being equal a bad thing that the state takes our money from us, but hold that this prima facie bad is justified by the public goods which taxation makes possible. Well-meaning [UK] public intellectual Alain de Botton encourages us to think of taxation as charity: we give up what’s ours for the greater good of our society.

BADecker

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Quote from: ePesoInitiative on April 29, 2017, 01:29:49 PM

Quote from: laissezfaire on April 29, 2017, 10:33:56 AM

Taxation IS theft, due primarily to the lack of choice you get in the matter. Yes, one may benefit funds that were previously stolen from someone else, but that doesn't make the thievery right in any way.

You could start your own country if you don't want to pay taxes. We supported our leaders to decide for us - what taxes to pay, what services we receive. If you don't like it, change the leaders or go make your own society.

That's what we did regarding America. In America, taxes are collected by trickery and lies. So, lets get rid of the trickery and lies.

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ePesoInitiative

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Quote from: laissezfaire on April 29, 2017, 10:33:56 AM

Taxation IS theft, due primarily to the lack of choice you get in the matter. Yes, one may benefit funds that were previously stolen from someone else, but that doesn't make the thievery right in any way.

You could start your own country if you don't want to pay taxes. We supported our leaders to decide for us - what taxes to pay, what services we receive. If you don't like it, change the leaders or go make your own society.

Mometaskers

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The alternative to not having to pay taxes is to pay for everything out of your pocket. Sure, you might still have insurance, but would you be able to pay for your own police force and army, or construct road for your car to drive on?

I don't have problems with paying taxes provided they were:

1. Sane, I wouldn't want to have crazy stuff like Russia's beard tax from the old days.

2. Appropriate, rate would be something someone in my situation would be able to pay and everyone pay their fair share.

3. Strictly monitored, no sense paying taxes if they're just gonna be stolen.

laissezfaire

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on December 28, 2016, 10:03:13 PM

Quote from: BADecker on December 28, 2016, 09:58:42 PM

When you study the word "tax" in the legal dictionaries, if you study it deeply enough, you will find that it equates to "fraud."

Cool

So, we should descend into anarchy?

And live like apes with sticks,stones, stealing from each-other, not building anything, not having any regulations, any funds to build something useful?

Simple correction... Ascend. Ascend into Anarchy. Anarchy would be an improvement. People do not need people to walked them through life, hand grasped by momma government.

Theft, rape, murder, fraud and acting like apes is already a rampant problem. Getting political power out of corrupt individuals' hands and dismantling the institutions that produce perverse incentives would actually alleviate societies from the problematic behaviors aforementioned.

Taxation IS theft, due primarily to the lack of choice you get in the matter. Yes, one may benefit funds that were previously stolen from someone else, but that doesn't make the thievery right in any way.

I recommend anyone interested in learning more about this topic, to consider watching a video on youtube called, "George Ought to Help" by a producer called BitButter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs

coolcoinz

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Quote from: Eternu on April 29, 2017, 07:53:50 AM

I do not thing it is theft. Why i do not consider it theft, well because you live in some country that needs to protect you. To protect your own property and stuff. And for that country needs money, so we pay a little sum for protection of our country. Also we need rules, and country provide that too. Imagine what would happen if it was every man for him self... yes its not fun Cheesy

Making people pay for protection is called extorting. Gangsters thought about it long time ago.
How would you react if I came to you and told you I'll protect you for cash and if you don't pay I'll take your home and put you in jail? Would you feel bullied?

Rules... you pay for them to be established and then get screwed by them.
Example? Your taxes are funding the police, you oppose a newly established policy, go to a protest and get beaten by the police, sprayed with gas and shot with rubber bullets. Did you just pay someone to beat you up?

Eternu

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I do not thing it is theft. Why i do not consider it theft, well because you live in some country that needs to protect you. To protect your own property and stuff. And for that country needs money, so we pay a little sum for protection of our country. Also we need rules, and country provide that too. Imagine what would happen if it was every man for him self... yes its not fun Cheesy

coolcoinz

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Quote from: Seccerius on April 29, 2017, 02:28:08 AM

With taxes the issue is very interesting on the one hand the state exists at the expense of taxation of citizens on the other hand people lose a lot of money without getting anything in return the best with Bitcoin users do not pay any taxes can This is correct or not?

I always thought of it as theft for one simple reason. It's not voluntary.
If I could say I won't pay taxes and I won't use any services we couldn't call it theft, but if you can be jailed for not paying it's nothing more than abuse.
There should be a way to allow people to pay taxes only to their local governments. They would be able to track the money flow and see what actually is being done, but it won't be done because it's harder to steal.

Seccerius

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With taxes the issue is very interesting on the one hand the state exists at the expense of taxation of citizens on the other hand people lose a lot of money without getting anything in return the best with Bitcoin users do not pay any taxes can This is correct or not?

BADecker

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Quote from: sergio red on April 28, 2017, 01:12:51 PM

Why taxation is theft?.
At first you need to realize that you belong to a country or state. All of your responsibility go to the authority of respective office. So you have to pay them for caring of you. Why are they bound to pay service without getting payment?.
So I don't agree with you on this point.

Just remember what a "state" is. It is paperwork. The state can do nothing of itself.

How does a state become able to do something? It is activated by people. Only when state people become active does the state do anything.

This means that it is people against people. It is people of the state against people not of the state.

Why don't state people have to obey people who are not of the state - in state office? The people in office should pay the people who are not.

This shows how foolish it is to have taxation. Taxation is simply one group of people taking money from another group. It is stealing if the people don't want to pay, but are forced to. It isn't taxation if the people willingly giver; then it is donation.

All governments are simply people. Why should they get the money of people not in government? Taxation is theft.

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sergio red

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Why taxation is theft?.
At first you need to realize that you belong to a country or state. All of your responsibility go to the authority of respective office. So you have to pay them for caring of you. Why are they bound to pay service without getting payment?.
So I don't agree with you on this point.

BADecker

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Why Taxation is Slavery: Words From Frederick Douglass

Quote from: http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/why-taxation-is-slavery-words-from-frederick-douglass/

Slavery is being forced to work against your will for the benefit of your master, your owner. The only reason they own the products of your labor is because they own you. If you had exclusive control over what is done to and with your body, the most basic right of self-ownership, you would not owe anybody your labor.

So then a lesser percentage of forced labor is also slavery, though to an obviously lesser degree.

Whether a cent or a million dollars is taken without consent, it is theft. And if someone forces you to work for them 1% of the time, or 100% of a time, that is still slavery.

Frederick Douglass was a slave, by any reckoning. So it is interesting to read his own words, on having his rightfully earned wages taken by force. In his book My Bondage and My Freedom, Douglass laments the state of his servitude, that all his hard work is confiscated from him.

Besides, I was now getting—as I have said—a dollar and fifty cents per day. I contracted for it, worked for it, earned it, collected it; it was paid to me, and it was rightfully my own; and yet, upon every returning Saturday night, this money—my own hard earnings, every cent of it—was demanded of me, and taken from me by Master Hugh. He did not earn it; he had no hand in earning it; why, then, should he have it? I owed him nothing.

Read more at http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/why-taxation-is-slavery-words-from-frederick-douglass/.

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Razzoel

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Quote from: miki77miki on December 28, 2016, 08:24:52 PM

Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs

Well, at least they use it for something productive in society. Because we need things like street lights or else nobody would build those. Also we need police, because not everyone is a trained assassin to defend themselves. I'm all for less tax though!

mainpmf

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: GreenBits on April 26, 2017, 07:37:05 PM

If you don't provide for those that need assistance when you have enough, not only are you a shit, but you open yourself up to having desperate folks come take your cookie.

Donating to charity should be an independent decision.

I wouldn't want to live in a society where citizens only pay taxes because they fear punishment.

Lol because you know anyone willingly paying taxes?

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