Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 182.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 16, 2022, 04:34:10 PM

Quote from: Zackgeno96 on December 14, 2022, 03:01:01 PM

Ferrari a new team boss. No idea why the previous one left. Perhaps on the basis of last season, in which Ferrari performed disappointingly halfway through and in the final races of the season. But should you be fired for that? A lot of things will change at Ferrari, but the question is how good Ferrari will be next season with a new car. I don't know if the rules will be changed again. Anyway, I expect Verstappen and Perez to keep the seats at Red Bull.

Lack of results and the big number of mistakes added to media pressure.

That's why they removed him.

Lack of results is a reason all by itself without needing anything else. Media pressure is on every other team principal as well, after Horner managed to win with Vettel for 4 years in a row, he had to sit down and watch his team fail at beating Mercedes for 7 years in a row, a huge domination, even lose to Mercedes last year as well while Max won, and this is the first time in nearly a decade they won the constructors.

All of which is a proof that media pressure and results are not as important as we might imagine, it is all about the mistakes. If you can't win then you can't win, but if you had a chance to win but made so many mistakes that something that might have been close became an easy loss, then it's time to go.

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I love the annual shared stats as we get closer to the end of the year. The most durable vehicle of 2022 in F1 belongs to Mercedes. How can Mercedes, which closed the 2022 season with no points and placed eighth in the pit stop championship, be at the top of its endurance? I guess their engineers focus on durability. In addition, Mercedes completed 2 thousand 247 laps in 2022 and became the team with the most laps of the season. I hope the Mercedes technical team and team will focus on speed for 2023, apart from endurance. They definitely need a good driver as well.

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Quote from: swogerino on December 16, 2022, 07:46:16 AM

In theory they should stop making such mistakes for 2023 since we are seeing a new Chief Technical Officer is appointed and the first thing he should do in my opinion is review all the mistakes this team has made during the 2022 season and try to see what and where it did go wrong.

Once he identifies them and I believe he will have enough time to do that then he can improve the people behind these mistakes if they are still the same at Ferrari,he can impose a new way of doing things where the team making decisions should notify him before making that decision if they have time of course during the race to do that,you cannot expect such way of doing things when rain immediately starts and needs immediate action.

I also think that with an experienced team principal who has been a team principal for a long time, Ferrari is trying to bring the quality of experience into the team to analyse their own mistakes and fix them.

As Alfa/Sauber team boss, he has also seen Ferrari's mistakes and apart from the technical side, he will want to improve the strategy and pit stops.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 16, 2022, 04:34:10 PM

Quote from: Zackgeno96 on December 14, 2022, 03:01:01 PM

Ferrari a new team boss. No idea why the previous one left. Perhaps on the basis of last season, in which Ferrari performed disappointingly halfway through and in the final races of the season. But should you be fired for that? A lot of things will change at Ferrari, but the question is how good Ferrari will be next season with a new car. I don't know if the rules will be changed again. Anyway, I expect Verstappen and Perez to keep the seats at Red Bull.

Lack of results and the big number of mistakes added to media pressure.

That's why they removed him.

It was a normal season and the lack of results and the number of mistakes for a team like Ferrari was also not normal,I have been following F1 since Hockenheim 1996 and I don't remember a season in which Ferrari made as many mistakes as in this last season we just left behind.Based on this and based on the fact that the previous boss had a lot of time at Ferrari if I were him I would have quit myself and not waited for Ferrari to fire me.

Perez is a great team mate to Verstappen hegemony and they will keep him at Redbull for as long as he will be a great team mate to their "first" driver Verstappen.

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Quote from: Zackgeno96 on December 14, 2022, 03:01:01 PM

Ferrari a new team boss. No idea why the previous one left. Perhaps on the basis of last season, in which Ferrari performed disappointingly halfway through and in the final races of the season. But should you be fired for that? A lot of things will change at Ferrari, but the question is how good Ferrari will be next season with a new car. I don't know if the rules will be changed again. Anyway, I expect Verstappen and Perez to keep the seats at Red Bull.

Lack of results and the big number of mistakes added to media pressure.

That's why they removed him.

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Quote from: retreat on December 16, 2022, 12:34:20 AM

Okay we all agree that Binotto's technical experience is better than Vasseur's, but F1 is not just a good car or a big budget, it's also about approach to drivers and leadership in general and Vasseur is better at that than Binotto. Vasseur with his experience can bring fresh air to the Ferrari team and make this team less rigid than under Binotto's leadership. Vasseur is an important person who discovered talent like Lecrec and Hamilton, and this could be a solution for Ferrari and maybe the history of "Schumacher-Todt-Brawn" can be repeated in the Ferrari F1 team in the coming season. I'm sure that if he gets full support in the next 4-5 years, Vasseur can improve the performance of the Ferrari team.

It is not just about that, but it is a good important thing to note. Now there is a chance that all of that strategic mistakes may not happen, look at how good he built at Alfa Romeo so far and I am guessing that it will probably work well enough for Ferrari that the amount of strategi mistakes like pit stop strategies and tire strategies will be a lot better with the team Vasseur builts.

However, will they have as good of a car? That is not known and that's the point. You can't win with just one or the other, you win with having both of them doing great. Why Red Bull is great? Because Newey gives them a good car and Horner makes sure it works well enough.

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Quote from: swogerino on December 16, 2022, 07:46:16 AM

Quote from: Koal-84 on December 16, 2022, 06:01:56 AM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 15, 2022, 05:45:19 PM

The car of this year was quite good before the summer when they changed the regulation of the cars.

It is the second time when Ferrari got the best or almost the best car and they nerf it (2019 too)

Even if Ferrari had the best car in the field at the beginning of the season, they still make so many mistakes of their own (pit stops, strategy mistakes or driving errors) that no matter how good the car is, the world championship doesn't pay off at the end of the season.

I wrote it a short time ago, if Ferrari stops making their own mistakes, they are the favourites for the world championship title in 2023 for me.

In theory they should stop making such mistakes for 2023 since we are seeing a new Chief Technical Officer is appointed and the first thing he should do in my opinion is review all the mistakes this team has made during the 2022 season and try to see what and where it did go wrong.

Once he identifies them and I believe he will have enough time to do that then he can improve the people behind these mistakes if they are still the same at Ferrari,he can impose a new way of doing things where the team making decisions should notify him before making that decision if they have time of course during the race to do that,you cannot expect such way of doing things when rain immediately starts and needs immediate action.

@swogerino I have totally given up on Ferrari because for all their hype they just fail to win, and I personally don’t expect anything to change in 2023. Furthermore I believe that it’ll take at least 2 - 3 year’s for them to start winning again, and with Hamilton retirement coming up I believe that’s an golden opportunity for them and they should try and exploit it.

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Quote from: Koal-84 on December 16, 2022, 06:01:56 AM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 15, 2022, 05:45:19 PM

The car of this year was quite good before the summer when they changed the regulation of the cars.

It is the second time when Ferrari got the best or almost the best car and they nerf it (2019 too)

Even if Ferrari had the best car in the field at the beginning of the season, they still make so many mistakes of their own (pit stops, strategy mistakes or driving errors) that no matter how good the car is, the world championship doesn't pay off at the end of the season.

I wrote it a short time ago, if Ferrari stops making their own mistakes, they are the favourites for the world championship title in 2023 for me.

In theory they should stop making such mistakes for 2023 since we are seeing a new Chief Technical Officer is appointed and the first thing he should do in my opinion is review all the mistakes this team has made during the 2022 season and try to see what and where it did go wrong.

Once he identifies them and I believe he will have enough time to do that then he can improve the people behind these mistakes if they are still the same at Ferrari,he can impose a new way of doing things where the team making decisions should notify him before making that decision if they have time of course during the race to do that,you cannot expect such way of doing things when rain immediately starts and needs immediate action.

Koal-84

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 15, 2022, 05:45:19 PM

The car of this year was quite good before the summer when they changed the regulation of the cars.

It is the second time when Ferrari got the best or almost the best car and they nerf it (2019 too)

Even if Ferrari had the best car in the field at the beginning of the season, they still make so many mistakes of their own (pit stops, strategy mistakes or driving errors) that no matter how good the car is, the world championship doesn't pay off at the end of the season.

I wrote it a short time ago, if Ferrari stops making their own mistakes, they are the favourites for the world championship title in 2023 for me.

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Quote from: swogerino on December 14, 2022, 04:29:49 AM

Quote from: retreat on December 13, 2022, 10:58:19 PM

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

Yes 25 years of experience and he never brought us a winning car so most probably I agree that Binotto should have stayed as his expertise is invaluable but also Ferrari needs to win something and since Binotto failed so many years since 2007 to be precise and I also agree with this move and maybe Vasseur just needs a much higher budget which Ferrari have to bring us the winning car again.

However Ferrari it is still in the dark in the sense that they sure expect more from the new team principal but it is another question if he will deliver for real a winning car or he will just continue the legacy of not winning any Champions again.

Okay we all agree that Binotto's technical experience is better than Vasseur's, but F1 is not just a good car or a big budget, it's also about approach to drivers and leadership in general and Vasseur is better at that than Binotto. Vasseur with his experience can bring fresh air to the Ferrari team and make this team less rigid than under Binotto's leadership. Vasseur is an important person who discovered talent like Lecrec and Hamilton, and this could be a solution for Ferrari and maybe the history of "Schumacher-Todt-Brawn" can be repeated in the Ferrari F1 team in the coming season. I'm sure that if he gets full support in the next 4-5 years, Vasseur can improve the performance of the Ferrari team.

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Quote from: tygeade on December 15, 2022, 03:54:10 PM

It was known but it was not really approved by everyone. Ferrari needs to change a lot more than just their TP, they have to change a lot. Like they need to change the race engineers too, and they need to change the strategist too, and they need to change the car designer too, or maybe keep that one I am not sure.

Like this is okay, Binotto out is something everyone wanted and that part is true, but it's half good because they just did one change and consider that would be enough to win the title? No way. Charles is a great young driver who has the potential to dominate the league if given a great car and team makes no mistakes, he just needs help.

The car of this year was quite good before the summer when they changed the regulation of the cars.

It is the second time when Ferrari got the best or almost the best car and they nerf it (2019 too)

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 14, 2022, 05:52:59 PM

So in the end they called Vasseur, as predicted.

He has a huge experience and he already worked with Leclerc 3 years ago, best of luck

It was known but it was not really approved by everyone. Ferrari needs to change a lot more than just their TP, they have to change a lot. Like they need to change the race engineers too, and they need to change the strategist too, and they need to change the car designer too, or maybe keep that one I am not sure.

Like this is okay, Binotto out is something everyone wanted and that part is true, but it's half good because they just did one change and consider that would be enough to win the title? No way. Charles is a great young driver who has the potential to dominate the league if given a great car and team makes no mistakes, he just needs help.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 14, 2022, 05:52:59 PM

So in the end they called Vasseur, as predicted.

He has a huge experience and he already worked with Leclerc 3 years ago, best of luck

Yup, for the sake of the sport and the season for 2023, I hope it all works out for the team and esp Leclerc. He has the makings to be an excellent driver who could win championships. Imagine a world where Vestappen wasn't in the picture and Leclerc drove for Red Bull. He would be unbeatable if placed in a team like that imho.

And it looks like Binotto is completely out and he didn't give the team a choice. He will def be missed. Let's see what Ferrari can do with a new technical team.

Early lines for the outrights for 2023.

https://stake.com/sports/outright/formula-1/formula-1/formula-1-2023/43033628-formula-1-2023

Some interesting lines in the season H2H market. Will take a good look later.

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So in the end they called Vasseur, as predicted.

He has a huge experience and he already worked with Leclerc 3 years ago, best of luck

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Quote from: swogerino on December 14, 2022, 04:29:49 AM

Quote from: retreat on December 13, 2022, 10:58:19 PM

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

Yes 25 years of experience and he never brought us a winning car so most probably I agree that Binotto should have stayed as his expertise is invaluable but also Ferrari needs to win something and since Binotto failed so many years since 2007 to be precise and I also agree with this move and maybe Vasseur just needs a much higher budget which Ferrari have to bring us the winning car again.

However Ferrari it is still in the dark in the sense that they sure expect more from the new team principal but it is another question if he will deliver for real a winning car or he will just continue the legacy of not winning any Champions again.

Like someone always mentioned, he should have been in charge of just the car, like Newey who has built 13 championship cars so far, and Binotto could be in that role as car designer and that's it. I am not really sure that anything would change and that should have been good for Ferrari.

Anything else about the in race stuff, should be changed and a new one would be better however that doesn't change the fact that we are talking about something that would be working better in the long run because a good car and a good team leader would cause a great amount of help for them. Binotto was horrible at race day stuff, he was never good about it at all.

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There may still be some talents eager to make their way into F1. But the competition is huge. There is also little room to develop yourself in F1. When you join a team like Mercedes or Ferrari, you have to perform right from the start. I think it is difficult for newcomers to make their debut. De Vries did very well last year, but whether he can structurally handle the level remains to be seen. Hamilton and Russel will probably remain the 1st and 2nd drivers.

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Quote from: Zackgeno96 on December 14, 2022, 03:01:01 PM

Ferrari a new team boss. No idea why the previous one left. Perhaps on the basis of last season, in which Ferrari performed disappointingly halfway through and in the final races of the season. But should you be fired for that? A lot of things will change at Ferrari, but the question is how good Ferrari will be next season with a new car. I don't know if the rules will be changed again. Anyway, I expect Verstappen and Perez to keep the seats at Red Bull.

I don't think one has anything to do with the other. Perhaps the former Ferrari team boss thought it was good enough and someone else felt called to take over. I think it will have little influence on the technical process. Maybe Ferrari will change 2nd driver, but I don't see that happening either. Leclerc and Sainz drove quite well in themselves, but Verstappen was unapproachable and the Red Bull engine was better than Ferrari's.

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Ferrari a new team boss. No idea why the previous one left. Perhaps on the basis of last season, in which Ferrari performed disappointingly halfway through and in the final races of the season. But should you be fired for that? A lot of things will change at Ferrari, but the question is how good Ferrari will be next season with a new car. I don't know if the rules will be changed again. Anyway, I expect Verstappen and Perez to keep the seats at Red Bull.

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Quote from: swogerino on December 14, 2022, 04:29:49 AM

Quote from: retreat on December 13, 2022, 10:58:19 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on December 12, 2022, 11:32:47 AM

Remember, Binotto was also one of the engineers who helped built the winning cars of Michael Schmacher at Ferrari. I'll say it again, it would be a huge mistake for Ferrari to get rid of him.

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

Yes 25 years of experience and he never brought us a winning car so most probably I agree that Binotto should have stayed as his expertise is invaluable but also Ferrari needs to win something and since Binotto failed so many years since 2007 to be precise and I also agree with this move and maybe Vasseur just needs a much higher budget which Ferrari have to bring us the winning car again.

However Ferrari it is still in the dark in the sense that they sure expect more from the new team principal but it is another question if he will deliver for real a winning car or he will just continue the legacy of not winning any Champions again.

Binotto is a great engineer but nothing when it comes to strategy and actually leading skills. I also agree that Binotto should have remain in Ferrari and continue to put his engineer skills up to work but I guess , he didn't want to continue at all.

I do hope that too ...it's been way too long since Ferrari actually had a champion but if we look closer in F1 history , there is always a BIG gap between Ferrari champions...why is that ? Because it seems they have always been the same when it comes to strategy , team work and actually having a winner mentality. Let's hope this year , we will have a close battle at least between Ferrari / RedBull / Mercedes.

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Quote from: retreat on December 13, 2022, 10:58:19 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on December 12, 2022, 11:32:47 AM

Remember, Binotto was also one of the engineers who helped built the winning cars of Michael Schmacher at Ferrari. I'll say it again, it would be a huge mistake for Ferrari to get rid of him.

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

Yes 25 years of experience and he never brought us a winning car so most probably I agree that Binotto should have stayed as his expertise is invaluable but also Ferrari needs to win something and since Binotto failed so many years since 2007 to be precise and I also agree with this move and maybe Vasseur just needs a much higher budget which Ferrari have to bring us the winning car again.

However Ferrari it is still in the dark in the sense that they sure expect more from the new team principal but it is another question if he will deliver for real a winning car or he will just continue the legacy of not winning any Champions again.

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