Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 190.

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Quote from: swogerino on December 14, 2022, 04:29:49 AM

Quote from: retreat on December 13, 2022, 10:58:19 PM

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

Yes 25 years of experience and he never brought us a winning car so most probably I agree that Binotto should have stayed as his expertise is invaluable but also Ferrari needs to win something and since Binotto failed so many years since 2007 to be precise and I also agree with this move and maybe Vasseur just needs a much higher budget which Ferrari have to bring us the winning car again.

However Ferrari it is still in the dark in the sense that they sure expect more from the new team principal but it is another question if he will deliver for real a winning car or he will just continue the legacy of not winning any Champions again.

Okay we all agree that Binotto's technical experience is better than Vasseur's, but F1 is not just a good car or a big budget, it's also about approach to drivers and leadership in general and Vasseur is better at that than Binotto. Vasseur with his experience can bring fresh air to the Ferrari team and make this team less rigid than under Binotto's leadership. Vasseur is an important person who discovered talent like Lecrec and Hamilton, and this could be a solution for Ferrari and maybe the history of "Schumacher-Todt-Brawn" can be repeated in the Ferrari F1 team in the coming season. I'm sure that if he gets full support in the next 4-5 years, Vasseur can improve the performance of the Ferrari team.

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Quote from: tygeade on December 15, 2022, 03:54:10 PM

It was known but it was not really approved by everyone. Ferrari needs to change a lot more than just their TP, they have to change a lot. Like they need to change the race engineers too, and they need to change the strategist too, and they need to change the car designer too, or maybe keep that one I am not sure.

Like this is okay, Binotto out is something everyone wanted and that part is true, but it's half good because they just did one change and consider that would be enough to win the title? No way. Charles is a great young driver who has the potential to dominate the league if given a great car and team makes no mistakes, he just needs help.

The car of this year was quite good before the summer when they changed the regulation of the cars.

It is the second time when Ferrari got the best or almost the best car and they nerf it (2019 too)

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 14, 2022, 05:52:59 PM

So in the end they called Vasseur, as predicted.

He has a huge experience and he already worked with Leclerc 3 years ago, best of luck

It was known but it was not really approved by everyone. Ferrari needs to change a lot more than just their TP, they have to change a lot. Like they need to change the race engineers too, and they need to change the strategist too, and they need to change the car designer too, or maybe keep that one I am not sure.

Like this is okay, Binotto out is something everyone wanted and that part is true, but it's half good because they just did one change and consider that would be enough to win the title? No way. Charles is a great young driver who has the potential to dominate the league if given a great car and team makes no mistakes, he just needs help.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 14, 2022, 05:52:59 PM

So in the end they called Vasseur, as predicted.

He has a huge experience and he already worked with Leclerc 3 years ago, best of luck

Yup, for the sake of the sport and the season for 2023, I hope it all works out for the team and esp Leclerc. He has the makings to be an excellent driver who could win championships. Imagine a world where Vestappen wasn't in the picture and Leclerc drove for Red Bull. He would be unbeatable if placed in a team like that imho.

And it looks like Binotto is completely out and he didn't give the team a choice. He will def be missed. Let's see what Ferrari can do with a new technical team.

Early lines for the outrights for 2023.

https://stake.com/sports/outright/formula-1/formula-1/formula-1-2023/43033628-formula-1-2023

Some interesting lines in the season H2H market. Will take a good look later.

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So in the end they called Vasseur, as predicted.

He has a huge experience and he already worked with Leclerc 3 years ago, best of luck

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Quote from: swogerino on December 14, 2022, 04:29:49 AM

Quote from: retreat on December 13, 2022, 10:58:19 PM

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

Yes 25 years of experience and he never brought us a winning car so most probably I agree that Binotto should have stayed as his expertise is invaluable but also Ferrari needs to win something and since Binotto failed so many years since 2007 to be precise and I also agree with this move and maybe Vasseur just needs a much higher budget which Ferrari have to bring us the winning car again.

However Ferrari it is still in the dark in the sense that they sure expect more from the new team principal but it is another question if he will deliver for real a winning car or he will just continue the legacy of not winning any Champions again.

Like someone always mentioned, he should have been in charge of just the car, like Newey who has built 13 championship cars so far, and Binotto could be in that role as car designer and that's it. I am not really sure that anything would change and that should have been good for Ferrari.

Anything else about the in race stuff, should be changed and a new one would be better however that doesn't change the fact that we are talking about something that would be working better in the long run because a good car and a good team leader would cause a great amount of help for them. Binotto was horrible at race day stuff, he was never good about it at all.

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There may still be some talents eager to make their way into F1. But the competition is huge. There is also little room to develop yourself in F1. When you join a team like Mercedes or Ferrari, you have to perform right from the start. I think it is difficult for newcomers to make their debut. De Vries did very well last year, but whether he can structurally handle the level remains to be seen. Hamilton and Russel will probably remain the 1st and 2nd drivers.

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Quote from: Zackgeno96 on December 14, 2022, 03:01:01 PM

Ferrari a new team boss. No idea why the previous one left. Perhaps on the basis of last season, in which Ferrari performed disappointingly halfway through and in the final races of the season. But should you be fired for that? A lot of things will change at Ferrari, but the question is how good Ferrari will be next season with a new car. I don't know if the rules will be changed again. Anyway, I expect Verstappen and Perez to keep the seats at Red Bull.

I don't think one has anything to do with the other. Perhaps the former Ferrari team boss thought it was good enough and someone else felt called to take over. I think it will have little influence on the technical process. Maybe Ferrari will change 2nd driver, but I don't see that happening either. Leclerc and Sainz drove quite well in themselves, but Verstappen was unapproachable and the Red Bull engine was better than Ferrari's.

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Ferrari a new team boss. No idea why the previous one left. Perhaps on the basis of last season, in which Ferrari performed disappointingly halfway through and in the final races of the season. But should you be fired for that? A lot of things will change at Ferrari, but the question is how good Ferrari will be next season with a new car. I don't know if the rules will be changed again. Anyway, I expect Verstappen and Perez to keep the seats at Red Bull.

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Quote from: swogerino on December 14, 2022, 04:29:49 AM

Quote from: retreat on December 13, 2022, 10:58:19 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on December 12, 2022, 11:32:47 AM

Remember, Binotto was also one of the engineers who helped built the winning cars of Michael Schmacher at Ferrari. I'll say it again, it would be a huge mistake for Ferrari to get rid of him.

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

Yes 25 years of experience and he never brought us a winning car so most probably I agree that Binotto should have stayed as his expertise is invaluable but also Ferrari needs to win something and since Binotto failed so many years since 2007 to be precise and I also agree with this move and maybe Vasseur just needs a much higher budget which Ferrari have to bring us the winning car again.

However Ferrari it is still in the dark in the sense that they sure expect more from the new team principal but it is another question if he will deliver for real a winning car or he will just continue the legacy of not winning any Champions again.

Binotto is a great engineer but nothing when it comes to strategy and actually leading skills. I also agree that Binotto should have remain in Ferrari and continue to put his engineer skills up to work but I guess , he didn't want to continue at all.

I do hope that too ...it's been way too long since Ferrari actually had a champion but if we look closer in F1 history , there is always a BIG gap between Ferrari champions...why is that ? Because it seems they have always been the same when it comes to strategy , team work and actually having a winner mentality. Let's hope this year , we will have a close battle at least between Ferrari / RedBull / Mercedes.

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Quote from: retreat on December 13, 2022, 10:58:19 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on December 12, 2022, 11:32:47 AM

Remember, Binotto was also one of the engineers who helped built the winning cars of Michael Schmacher at Ferrari. I'll say it again, it would be a huge mistake for Ferrari to get rid of him.

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

Yes 25 years of experience and he never brought us a winning car so most probably I agree that Binotto should have stayed as his expertise is invaluable but also Ferrari needs to win something and since Binotto failed so many years since 2007 to be precise and I also agree with this move and maybe Vasseur just needs a much higher budget which Ferrari have to bring us the winning car again.

However Ferrari it is still in the dark in the sense that they sure expect more from the new team principal but it is another question if he will deliver for real a winning car or he will just continue the legacy of not winning any Champions again.

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Quote from: tokeweed on December 12, 2022, 11:32:47 AM

Remember, Binotto was also one of the engineers who helped built the winning cars of Michael Schmacher at Ferrari. I'll say it again, it would be a huge mistake for Ferrari to get rid of him.

Maybe yes, maybe no. We all know that Binotto was instrumental in making Ferrari one of the best constructors. He has dedicated 28 years at Ferrari as a principal and is very good at it. But that doesn't mean F1 will suffer a setback with his departure - he's not perfect, he has a lot of flaws - it could be a turning point for Ferrari to become a top constructor again.

What's more, Vasseur has been named the newest team principal for Ferrari and he is not someone to be underestimated, with 25 years of experience, he can combine this experience with what Binotto has built. This will probably make F1's performance even better in the coming season.

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Quote from: LTU_btc on December 12, 2022, 03:51:03 PM

I think that Vassseur isn't bad choice. But somehow I don't expect that he will stay in Ferrari for long, maybe 2-3 years until things will go wrong.

I also think that Vassseur is not a bad decision, he got the best possible out of Sauber. Of course more would have been possible, when the car was halfway good there was the disaster with the Ferrari engine where they reached an agreement with the FIA and the engine had no more power. But unlike Sauber, he will have a lot of pressure at Ferrari.

In addition, it seems that Honda will officially return to Formula 1 as an engine/powertrain manufacturer in 2026. Honda has officially signed up for the 2026 season but not with partner RedBull, according to newspaper reports.

https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel-1/news/honda-schreibt-sich-fuer-formel-1-motorenreglement-2026-ein-22121207

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 11, 2022, 05:25:58 PM

Vasseur, unlike Binotto, has great experience as a box man.
As we can read on the Wikipedia page, he has over 20 years of experience in that field, even in minor leagues, and also has excellent experience in Formula 1.

Binotto, on the other hand, had no track experience, he is "only" a great engineer who, however, does not automatically mean he is also a great boss for the team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Vasseur

It is a mystery on how Marchionne (rip) chose him, now we have Elkann in the lead and he will change him with a new one.

I think that Vassseur isn't bad choice. But somehow I don't expect that he will stay in Ferrari for long, maybe 2-3 years until things will go wrong.
Meanwhile Williams announced that Jost Capito leaves team:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/williams-f1-team-principal-jost-capito-steps-down/10410668/
In these few years he had done big work with Williams and interesting where he will go.

Quote from: Pulsar77 on December 12, 2022, 11:48:26 AM

I still don't understand why Ricciardo would like to come back to Red Bull as the third driver.

He left Red Bull not to become the second driver in the team. He had some serious disagreements with Verstappen as well. Of course there have been many years so they might not have any personal issues between themselves anymore maybe. But still he is returning as a candidate to become the second driver again. This makes me think like he isn't a competitive driver any longer. Because the Ricciardo I know would have liked to join a team in which he can fight for big success.

Going to Mercedes would have been a much more appropriate move for that version of Ricciardo. However here we are seeing him waiting for his turn after Perez leaves.

The problem is that he isn't Mercedes level driver anymore and he isn't invited there. He didn't wanted to race for teams like Haas, but I don't understand how being reserve driver can be better option than being regular driver of F1 team, even if they don't fight for high places.

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Quote from: Pulsar77 on December 12, 2022, 11:48:26 AM

I still don't understand why Ricciardo would like to come back to Red Bull as the third driver.

He left Red Bull not to become the second driver in the team. He had some serious disagreements with Verstappen as well. Of course there have been many years so they might not have any personal issues between themselves anymore maybe. But still he is returning as a candidate to become the second driver again. This makes me think like he isn't a competitive driver any longer. Because the Ricciardo I know would have liked to join a team in which he can fight for big success.

Going to Mercedes would have been a much more appropriate move for that version of Ricciardo. However here we are seeing him waiting for his turn after Perez leaves.

I agree but honestly he would not have got the seat at Mercedes if Hamilton leaves,Mercedes likes to believe in young aspiring drivers like Rosberg,Bottas and Russell as of lately,I am sure they would not want to get some one of the age of Ricciardo although I got nothing against his age.

In Redbull I think Verstappen would not mind having him as a team mate when Perez leaves,he because of his age compared to how Verstappen drivers will be of no problem to him,that is why I think in the end Ricciardo did made the right choice by joining Redbull again.

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I still don't understand why Ricciardo would like to come back to Red Bull as the third driver.

He left Red Bull not to become the second driver in the team. He had some serious disagreements with Verstappen as well. Of course there have been many years so they might not have any personal issues between themselves anymore maybe. But still he is returning as a candidate to become the second driver again. This makes me think like he isn't a competitive driver any longer. Because the Ricciardo I know would have liked to join a team in which he can fight for big success.

Going to Mercedes would have been a much more appropriate move for that version of Ricciardo. However here we are seeing him waiting for his turn after Perez leaves.

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^ Depends. They could also be in another transition period with their new team principal and possibly new chief technical officer if the Ferrari F1 brass decides to kick Binotto out which I don't think they will do. There could be other teams that'll love to hire him and get more advantage for his talents as an engineer.

Remember, Binotto was also one of the engineers who helped built the winning cars of Michael Schmacher at Ferrari. I'll say it again, it would be a huge mistake for Ferrari to get rid of him.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on December 07, 2022, 06:07:18 PM

Quote from: boltz on December 07, 2022, 04:11:42 PM

I don't think Ferrari can compete with RedBull next year but I'm sure the battle will be tighter than what we had this year. As long as Max has a great car , he pretty looks unstoppable and I'm not a fan of him but the kid is one of the greatest but Charles is up there as well , he just needs Ferrari to develop a steady car for an entire season. Grin

Well, this year Ferrari was competitive at the start but Redbull did progress better and maybe doped the car this year too.

For the following year, I will bet on Mercedes.

Ferrari was very competitive at the beginning of the last year. At the beginning RedBull had problems and at the end of the season it was more Ferrari and also Mercedes caught up at the end of the session. But I read that Ferrari reduced the power of their powertrains during the season because they had standstill problems. This should no longer happen next season. If Ferrari also fixes their own mistakes, I think they'll be right in front.

Anyway, I think it will be very close between Mercedes, RedBull and Ferrari next season.

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Quote from: ILuckyGuyI on December 11, 2022, 04:06:05 PM

It was really for the first time in seven years that Hamilton couldn't win any race in a season. This was as a result of Mercedes' losing a lot of power against Red Bull - Ferrari duo of course. After the regulation change you mentioned, Mercedes started to benefit from it very much but the time was still limited for Hamilton to win a race. Russell got his first win in his career but there wasn't any turn for Hamilton I'm afraid. But if Mercedes keep improving their car they can compete for the championship again.

Some people might be criticizing Hamilton for not having a good season at all. But this season doesn't show it like Hamilton isn't a that much impressive driver. If Verstappen was in Mercedes' seat this season he would have also had a similar season. The power of the car just limits the driver of that car very much.

Very confident that Mercedes will be able to compete with Red Bull - Ferrari in the next season since they will change the architecture of their F1 car, especially on the chassis, which was previously a problem for the Mercedes team.

And it seems, Mercedes has no problem with their drivers, their two drivers, Russell and Hamilton, are drivers with pretty good performance, but it's just that they haven't found a good "footing" to be able to compete with other drivers, especially drivers from Red Bull -Ferrari. But it is only a matter of time before they can win the season again since they have benefited from the regulation change.

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Quote from: swogerino on December 11, 2022, 04:40:09 PM

Vasseur

Vasseur, unlike Binotto, has great experience as a box man.
As we can read on the Wikipedia page, he has over 20 years of experience in that field, even in minor leagues, and also has excellent experience in Formula 1.

Binotto, on the other hand, had no track experience, he is "only" a great engineer who, however, does not automatically mean he is also a great boss for the team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Vasseur

It is a mystery on how Marchionne (rip) chose him, now we have Elkann in the lead and he will change him with a new one.

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