Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 190.

Davian144

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Quote from: blue Snow on October 13, 2022, 01:03:04 AM

I don't really watch WSBK, just sometimes watch the replay on television. I heard Jonathan Rea lost in Portimao, He finish 3rd after Alvaro Bautista and Toprak Razgatlioglu. So my assumption is look hard to him to race Alvaro Bautista with 3 races remaining when only having 83 different points left. Maybe Kawasaki must listen to his complaint about improved engine power, or is there any possibility he move to another bike?

All riders are always bound by their respective contracts within the manufacturer, so they can't just move if the contract period hasn't expired with a certain manufacturer.
And in WSBK, in each race there are three races that must be passed by the riders with a duration of two days, which since Saturday there has been Race1 and Sundays begin with SP Race (Sprint Race) and Race2.

So this is what still gives Jonathan Rea and Toprak an opportunity because in the remaining 3 series there are still 186 points that can still be contested by all WSBK riders.
Because for Race1 and Race2 it will get full points for the first winner (25 points), while for the SP Race which only runs 10 laps or less will get 12 points for the first winner, so each series there are 62 points that can be obtained by the rider who won first. The following is the mechanism for calculating points on WSBK: blackxperience.com

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The FIA has been putting on a horrible performance these past few days, it is unfortunate to see that F1, a sport so loved by many people, is being destroyed by the incompetence of this disastrous organisation.
If the criticism of the FIA was already extremely justifiable before, the situation became almost untenable in a matter of days, with the revelation of the hole in the spending ceiling by Red Bull and, of course, the disastrous Japanese GP, with confusion in the title announcement. of Max Verstappen and even flirt with tragedy with inexplicable tractor entry onto the track.
Worst of all is that the FIA continues to think that everything is normal. How long will this be!?

emrecemsan

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It is like Red Bull's turn to have a strong relationship with FIA and take advantage of this now. It was the same for Mercedes before and now things have changed after Red Bull have become the number one team in F1.

I really am frustrated with FIA's actions in the recent years. They still can't act independently. We are seeing so-called changes in FIA but this doesn't change anything about the management. We had the same experience again this season. They screwed things up in another crucial race for the championship. Teams are protesting this but they are also desperate because of not having the control in the end. I just hope to see a cleaner season than this next time. But after seeing this for two seasons I can't say that I believe in FIA much.

Zackgeno96

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How will Mercedes actually handle things for next season? Perhaps it is an advantage for Mercedes that Verstappen has become champion so easily, then they seriously know that there is a lot of work to be done. Frustrating for Hamilton that he has not even won a race this season. Hamilton will still remain loyal to Mercedes, it seems impossible that he will drive for another team after a failed season. But then things will have to do differently at Mercedes. How come the gap with Red Bull and also Ferrari has become so big? Have they had so many problems with the new regulations?

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on October 13, 2022, 04:09:00 PM

So it seems official now that RBR is using a "doped" car.

They used more money over the salary cap, the penalty is still under discussion.

It will never happen but they should remove the title for 2021 and this year.

I highly doubt that the title of this year will ever be removed while I give a small percentage that this may happen for the title of 2021.While this discussion is happening though is not the Redbull fault that other teams are not trying hard enough to compete with them.

Let's call this a staging season where the "interns" meaning all teams have learned how to deal with the new regulations and to try hard to achieve something beautiful for the 2023 season,something beautiful would be at least 3-4 teams fighting to win a race in every race we will see.I know all the teams are already working on such purpose so I can't wait for the 2023 season to start.

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So it seems official now that RBR is using a "doped" car.

They used more money over the salary cap, the penalty is still under discussion.

It will never happen but they should remove the title for 2021 and this year.

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Quote from: Davian144 on October 12, 2022, 10:25:41 AM

Jonathan Rea is still the rider with the highest points record in WSBK for the top 10 riders who have had the most points in a season. In 2019 Jonathan Rea managed to collect 663 points in 13 race series with a 3 race format in one series. And Jonathan Rea also managed to become the WSBK world champion that year so that Jonathan Rea was able to collect WSBK world champions for 6 times in a row from 2015 to 2020.
_{Source: kompas.com & infoworldsbk}

I don't really watch WSBK, just sometimes watch the replay on television. I heard Jonathan Rea lost in Portimao, He finish 3rd after Alvaro Bautista and Toprak Razgatlioglu. So my assumption is look hard to him to race Alvaro Bautista with 3 races remaining when only having 83 different points left. Maybe Kawasaki must listen to his complaint about improved engine power, or is there any possibility he move to another bike?

el kaka22

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It is now known that Red Bull went overboard, that’s no secret anymore, but one thing is certain that it’s not guaranteed that they will lose a championship or anything. There is a high chance it's either money fine, or wind tunnel tokens taken away type of deal.

Because, money means they are going to lose some of the money they have to spend, and that means they won't be improving as well as they otherwise would. And if not that, then they could take away their development tokens, which means they won't be able to improve that way neither. If the award for breaking the rule was improving better, then the punishment should be relevant to not improving equal amount.

Davian144

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Jonathan Rea is still the rider with the highest points record in WSBK for the top 10 riders who have had the most points in a season. In 2019 Jonathan Rea managed to collect 663 points in 13 race series with a 3 race format in one series. And Jonathan Rea also managed to become the WSBK world champion that year so that Jonathan Rea was able to collect WSBK world champions for 6 times in a row from 2015 to 2020.
_{Source: kompas.com & infoworldsbk}

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It is just a few million dollars, and yes a few million dollars could mean a lot more when it comes to car development, but also we need to remember teams like Red Bull are spending significantly more to driver salaries as well.

If we start to omit that then it would be a lot better. On top of that we are spending millions of dollars more when you have a great team on sponsors, because you have to take care of a lot more bigger names, and you earn a lot more but you are still allowed to spend the same amount. Considering teams reached 400+ million dollars at some point before the cap, this was bound to happen and I feel like it's not going to be anything big deal.

emrecemsan

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It doesn't seem like Red Bull will get a serious penalty for exceeding the budget given to them. FIA even stated that Red Bull have exceeded it by a small difference. The meaning of this should be that Red Bull will get a small penalty for this and they will get away with that easily. It wouldn't make me surprised after watching this season so far.

Especially the unbelievable mistakes in the last race have convinced me more about nothing has changed about FIA now. They just give hope some time but fail people very quickly. FIA shouldn't do this if they want this sport to be more watchable for people. Maybe not most people would lose their interest in the sport easily but the big fans would be disappointed very much.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on October 09, 2022, 02:44:23 PM

Much different?

He is running for 2 years with a doped car.
They had spent around 5-10 million over the cap, keep in mind the engineering work in 1 car is around 4-5 million here.

We have rules and they are doing what they want every race.

And yes is doping, mechanical doping.

For the 2021 season, all have now received their compliance certificates except RedBull, Aston Martin and Williams. Although Williams submitted late, Aston Martin had a procedural breach and RedBull had a procedural breach and exceeded the cost cap.

I'm curious to see what kind of penalties there will be, RedBull is supposed to have stayed below the 5% limit, we'll see, but I don't think there will be much apart from fines?

https://de.motorsport.com/f1/news/offiziell-red-bull-und-aston-martin-mit-verstoss-gegen-budgetgrenze-22101009/10382794/

In the first half of the season, Ferrari was definitely the stronger car, but they lost that through their own mistakes.

Davian144

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Using the Kalex swingarm, Miller says Honda has lost its way
Honda's move to use a Kalex swingarm was read by Jack Miller as a signal that the manufacturer was in the wrong direction. No wonder Marc Marquez is less than optimal in three MotoGP races. _{Source: motorsport.com}

What Jack Miller said I think is also true because after Honda used the non-carbon swingarm from the Kalex product, Honda still hasn't been able to show good results in the last three races of the season. And so far there has been no confirmation whether Honda will use the Swingarm from its own product, or continue to use the Kalex Swingarm in the three remaining series in MotoGP.

Pulsar77

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Verstappen already earned this title very much so he finished the job in Suzuka while there were four more races left in the season. Maybe it was a debatable race but we have nothing to do about this I'm afraid. FIA is the same FIA. After replacing Michael Masi I was hopeful about FIA to get a more reliable foundation. However they are still messing things up and drawing all the attention to themselves. It shouldn't be too difficult to manage a race properly.

Verstappen is just unlucky to have his titles in this kind of interesting situations due to FIA. But he isn't responsible for any of this in the end so he should be comfortable anyway.

I hope that Ferrari make a big improvement for next season and make us watch a real competition. They were promising at the beginning of the season but now they are a huge disappointment.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on October 09, 2022, 07:30:45 AM

Quote from: LTU_btc on October 09, 2022, 05:41:59 AM

It would be something unbeleavable if he wouldn't received penalty for cutting corner and gaining advantage.

The common sense is to give penalty in the following circumstances:

- is not the 1st cut they do during the race
- the opponent is doing an overtake and you gain an advantage doing the cut.

Both of these requirements were missing.

I don't think I can recall a case of a 5-second penalty for a cut while the opponent is not doing an overtake.

I think it was due to number 2, Perez was right on his tail, this wasn't like some 3+ second gap type of deal, it was right on his tail, and even with the corner cutting perez came so close to passing him but Charles didn't left any gap, I guarantee you if Perez overtook Charles, then there wouldn't be a penalty, but since he protected himself from getting overtaken by using the corner cutting, that was the main reason he was given a 5 second penalty.

Plus, none of this really mattered, because at the end of the day if Max was 5th on this race and Charles was first with fastest lap, Max would just take it next race, and would be champions, so this didn't change the winner of the title, it was just one race earlier thanks to this, that’s all.

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Alvaro Bautista is increasingly being overtaken by his opponents in the WSBK racing event. In race 2 yesterday at the Algarve Portimao circuit, Portugal, Alvaro Bautista managed to win the race with an extraordinary gap even though he had fought with Jonathan Rea and Toprak. But the power of the Ducati Panigale is so great and so extraordinary that Jonathan Rea and Toprak have to settle for second and third positions.

Thus, now Alvaro Bautista, who has collected 448 points, has again succeeded in widening the points gap in the temporary standings with Jonathan Rea and Toprak. Although there are still three more races that are still very possible for Jonathan Rea and Toprak to catch Alvaro Bautista points, but it becomes an increasingly difficult task for Jonathan Rea and Toprak because of the enormous power of Ducati.

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Quote from: LTU_btc on October 09, 2022, 05:55:28 PM

Indded, that was FIA fiasco. Truck on track immediately bring memories of Bianchi tragedy. Seemst that they haven't learned anything or forgot it. They don't allow to race them during rain and elay race by few hours because of it, but it's not problem to release truck before safety car on wet track without much visibility.

Indeed, the onboard cameras of several drivers showed several times that the tractor was very close to the cars and with that extremely low visibility it was impossible not to remember the fatal accident of Jules Bianchi on that same track. It even looked like this was a bad joke made on purpose.

Unfortunately, I have not seen any official pronouncement from the FIA about punishments for those responsible for this event.
There is so much talk about increasing car safety and following strict protocols by the teams, but the FIA itself cannot organize this in a minimally safe way or assume its responsibilities.... regrettable.

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Quote from: Distraction on October 09, 2022, 10:43:32 AM

FIA were a huge fiasco today. I really wonder what kind of people are in race control now. This was an important race for Verstappen to announce his second title. I don't know how FIA can't get more prepared for a special race like this. They made really unbelievable mistakes. Some of them were like:

- We saw a tractor coming in before the drivers entered pit lane.
- They finished the race one lap early.
- Gasly got unbelievable penalties like 20-sec time penalty and 2 penalty points for speeding under red flag (But as for FIA's huge mistake about the tractor, there is no problem according to them

).
- They shouldn't have given full points for this race because it wasn't even a full race.
- They weren't even sure of Verstappen's championship for a while. Cheesy

I think Leclerc's penalty was fair because he pushed Perez outside while Perez was trying to overtake him. We see 5-sec penalty being given in this kind of situations actually.

Indded, that was FIA fiasco. Truck on track immediately bring memories of Bianchi tragedy. Seemst that they haven't learned anything or forgot it. They don't allow to race them during rain and elay race by few hours because of it, but it's not problem to release truck before safety car on wet track without much visibility.
Though, penalty for Gasly is right IMO, he really had to slow down.
F1 gave explanation why full points were given, but rules should be more clear, because even if they themselves don't fully know it and moment when they didn't knew whether Max is champion or no was hilarious.
And I didn't even noticed that they finished one lap early.

Quote from: coinlocket$ on October 09, 2022, 07:30:45 AM

The common sense is to give penalty in the following circumstances:

- is not the 1st cut they do during the race
- the opponent is doing an overtake and you gain an advantage doing the cut.

Both of these requirements were missing.

I don't think I can recall a case of a 5-second penalty for a cut while the opponent is not doing an overtake.

I don't agree. Perez maybe didn't tried to overtake, but he chased Leclerc, what provoced his mistake. My memory don't works so good that now I would bring specific cases, but I think it's regular practice to give penalty in such cases, even if there is no overtake attempt.
Ferrari didn't even went to appeal this penalty.

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Yes for sure he is a strong driver, probably even the better driver at the current moment but.

There is a big but the previous year he was given in the last track the title, they haven't given the possibility to Hamilton to fight for it, they even changed the rule to provide an advantage to Verstappen.

And in these 2 years they got a substantial advantage for going over the budget cup, imagine now to see RBR with 0.5 seconds slower per lap with a consequentlial smaller pressure on opponents.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on October 09, 2022, 02:44:23 PM

Quote from: swogerino on October 09, 2022, 01:17:59 PM

Congratulations to Verstappen which showed a huge consistency and a great maturity for a driver of his age,he fully deserved this year to be Champion much different than last year were a lot of polemics decided it.The race was beautiful today but it was early in the morning so I missed it,could not wake up at 6:45 AM but announcing it in a post race interview is not the best way to announce the second title for Verstappen,this was an error especially considering we were at Honda home race and they should have been much more prepared when everybody was expecting the second title.

Much different?

He is running for 2 years with a doped car.
They had spent around 5-10 million over the cap, keep in mind the engineering work in 1 car is around 4-5 million here.

We have rules and they are doing what they want every race.

And yes is doping, mechanical doping.

I meant his behavior which showed maturity this year while the last one he was getting every race as it came.I know you are a Ferrari fan and I am no Redbull fan,I am a McLaren fan but the fact is that Ferrari made considerable errors which translated in points lost is well over 100 and if they did not made those errors the Championship would be still wide open.

I think that if they broke any rule they should be penalized for that,for the engineering work but most probably they found some loophole in the contract and rules of that engineering work otherwise if they are doing what they want what is the point of us following the sport when not everyone is following the rules?

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