Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 198.

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Quote from: safari88 on December 01, 2022, 02:36:14 PM

Ferrari has actually also built a much bigger name with racing than Red Bull. Nevertheless, Red Bull has also achieved modest successes in the past. But you never see Red Bull cars driving on the highways, I don't think they exist either? Ferrari is better known to the general public than Red Bull, but has a lot of problems to solve before the start of the new season. If they don't get that right mechanically, it could well be another disappointing season. I expect Hamilton to be able to fight for the title again with Verstappen like 2 seasons ago.

We are not discussing which team has better history,we are discussing the actual times and the actual last season of F1 which just ended a couple of weeks ago.The engine to Redbull is provided by Honda a legendary Japanese provider which is also very well known in the highways,of course not as much as Ferrari but they too build really cool cars from family wagons to NSX their high end street racing car,in this context Redbull has nothing to envy to Ferrari as the engine they use is from a company at least as powerful as Ferrari and for me personally even more powerful.Ferrari as we have already discussed here has internal problems and it is these problems that they should fix and then starting to fight for the title again.

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Quote from: safari88 on December 01, 2022, 02:36:14 PM

Ferrari has actually also built a much bigger name with racing than Red Bull. Nevertheless, Red Bull has also achieved modest successes in the past. But you never see Red Bull cars driving on the highways, I don't think they exist either? Ferrari is better known to the general public than Red Bull, but has a lot of problems to solve before the start of the new season. If they don't get that right mechanically, it could well be another disappointing season. I expect Hamilton to be able to fight for the title again with Verstappen like 2 seasons ago.

Red Bull is also not a classic car manufacturer but first and foremost a beverage producer, Mateschitz used the sport in the early days (especially extreme sports) for marketing purposes, and I don't think there will ever be a Red Bull car for road use, why should there? Possibly a very small Supersport series...

Formula 1 and MotoGP are on the road worldwide and so the Red Bull brand is presented in a good light in all corners of the world, which in my opinion is the most important thing for Red Bull, money is earned with the drink and not with motorsport. What Red Bull has done very well, however, is to get very good technicians ahead of Newey and to build up the team, one after the other.

You can read the history of Red Bull racing here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Racing

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Quote from: Distraction on December 01, 2022, 02:39:06 PM

I hope this change will be good for Ferrari. Because their fans must be running out of patience now. Because Ferrari gave big hopes to them at the beginning of the season. They made a really good start to it also but the problems didn't end for them. Durability problems started to affect them really badly. Red Bull also had the same issues at the beginning but they at least fixed these issues in a short time. Somehow Ferrari couldn't do this and it just stayed like that for a long time in the season.

Ferrari's main problem this year was certainly its engine... Ferrari's uneven performance in the last races of the 2022 Formula 1 season, which started in Mexico and extended to the "fight" they had against the team from Red Bull in Abu Dhabi, show how critical this problem was.

Anyone who has followed the team's trajectory this year knows that they had two problems to deal with: the first is the adjustment of the power unit, mainly the size of the turbo, which was not ideal for races at high altitude, such as the one that took place in Mexico. It's in Brazil.
The second was Mattia Binotto's confirmation after the last GP, as the team had to reduce engine performance in these last races because of reliability concerns.

In addition, Ferrari still had some failures of "great magnitude" and that cost a lot at the beginning of the campaign... Charles Leclerc incidents in Spain, then in Azerbaijan and finally the fire of Carlos Sainz in Austria . All this forced Ferrari to have to reduce the pace a little while they looked for a solution to the already existing problems.

I hope they now have enough time to get the shop in order and return for the 2023 season with everything set up.

Distraction

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I hope this change will be good for Ferrari. Because their fans must be running out of patience now. Because Ferrari gave big hopes to them at the beginning of the season. They made a really good start to it also but the problems didn't end for them. Durability problems started to affect them really badly. Red Bull also had the same issues at the beginning but they at least fixed these issues in a short time. Somehow Ferrari couldn't do this and it just stayed like that for a long time in the season.

This problem was a big hindrance for Leclerc - Sainz duo. Because they were so ambitious to race with the fastest car on the grid but things turned upside down suddenly. Leclerc's championship dreams collapsed not much time later. Ferrari will need to create a new crew with better people to decrease the issues to minimum. Pit crew should also be changed after all those unbelievable mistakes.

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Ferrari has actually also built a much bigger name with racing than Red Bull. Nevertheless, Red Bull has also achieved modest successes in the past. But you never see Red Bull cars driving on the highways, I don't think they exist either? Ferrari is better known to the general public than Red Bull, but has a lot of problems to solve before the start of the new season. If they don't get that right mechanically, it could well be another disappointing season. I expect Hamilton to be able to fight for the title again with Verstappen like 2 seasons ago.

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Quote from: jostorres on November 30, 2022, 04:48:03 PM

It is a sad day to see Binotto leave, and I agree that he was an amazing, awesome engineer, but when you are talking about Team Principle you are talking about something much more than an engineer, you are talking about a leader. That is why Horner and Toto did so well, they are fiery people with both fury towards all others and try to beat them, but also kindness towards their successful workers. Look at the teams they built, it's in great harmony.

Binotto deserved to be a great race engineer forever, but leading a team was something he couldn't do. New leader should be someone who is great with people skills, not just racing, that's the key to success.

Ferrari always was a racing team, in fact it is known that while all other teams race to sell more cars, Ferrari sells cars to race more. Which is a pride for them, in fact they have a rule just for them and get extra money for being Ferrari, imagine how great they are. So to say that Binotto was "enough" for them would be an overstatement, dude was never enough for them and they need to be a lot better and they need someone that is a lot better as well.

I imagine AT LEAST a horner or toto level person at the helm, probably someone even better if they can, they need the greatest ever, because Ferrari has the history of being the greatest ever in the past.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 29, 2022, 05:57:51 PM

It is official now, Binotto is out the new leader will be announced not before the 2023.

What a day for Jonh Elkann, in 12 hours he changed the lead of Ferrari and Juventus, both societies under his holding, Exor.

I think he has great project managers to replace them and both to be superior to these guys being "fired" from John Elkann otherwise if he does not replace them with successful successors it will be a really grave mistake.I believe that he will bring the new managers to be much more competitive,of course without removing nothing to Binotto which still remains one of the great minds of engineering in the F1 circus but he had his time and unfortunately did not bring any new title to Ferrari so that is why I agree with this move,it is time for a new face being able to bring a winning car for real and not half the season which would consequently bring back a F1 title to Ferrari that is waiting from more than 15 years now.

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Quote from: Luzin on November 29, 2022, 05:26:02 PM

I read the 2023 Moto GP calendar, though it's still a long way to go. The opening in Portugal will be on March 26. For this year there are two name countries which are the new organizers of Kazakhstan and India. There are a total of 21 races for this season.

Last season there were already 20 races due to the cancellation of the Finnish Grand Prix, in 2021 there were 18 races, in 2019 before Corona there were 19 races. So next year's season is already particularly long with 21 races, even though I'm a big fan of Moto GP races, but I think that's already too much for the team in development and for the riders.

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Quote from: Luzin on November 29, 2022, 05:26:02 PM

I read the 2023 Moto GP calendar, though it's still a long way to go. The opening in Portugal will be on March 26. For this year there are two name countries which are the new organizers of Kazakhstan and India. There are a total of 21 races for this season.

~snip~

It's great that my country is still on the 2023 MotoGP calendar. Mandalika will certainly be the epitome of racing in our country. Although my country does not yet have a driver who enters this race. I hope the riders won't be disappointed much because Mandalika has made some improvements. That fix has been used in this month's WSB races. The improvement was a creb that was 1 meter wide to 1.5 meters. In addition there seems to be a change in the run off in some corners. This is done in compliance with the homologation standard of grade A.

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It is a sad day to see Binotto leave, and I agree that he was an amazing, awesome engineer, but when you are talking about Team Principle you are talking about something much more than an engineer, you are talking about a leader. That is why Horner and Toto did so well, they are fiery people with both fury towards all others and try to beat them, but also kindness towards their successful workers. Look at the teams they built, it's in great harmony.

Binotto deserved to be a great race engineer forever, but leading a team was something he couldn't do. New leader should be someone who is great with people skills, not just racing, that's the key to success.

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It is official now, Binotto is out the new leader will be announced not before the 2023.

What a day for Jonh Elkann, in 12 hours he changed the lead of Ferrari and Juventus, both societies under his holding, Exor.

Luzin

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I read the 2023 Moto GP calendar, though it's still a long way to go. The opening in Portugal will be on March 26. For this year there are two name countries which are the new organizers of Kazakhstan and India. There are a total of 21 races for this season.

Source: https://www.boxrepsol.com/es/motogp/ya-hay-calendario-provisional-de-motogp-para-2023/

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There are some talks about Sebastian Vettel taking a little break at first, but then becoming a team principle.

I know that Horner and Toto is solid at where they are and won't change, but if it is possible then Ferrari, or even Aston Martin that he left, or any other team that takes him could really have a huge chance. This dude is the epitome of a great driver who understands the car, like Lewis for example is a great racer, but he is great racer behind the wheel, but when he is out, he is just a fashion icon or whatever, whereas Vettel understands the car itself just like an engineer as well and that could really turn a team into a marvellous future if he can be hired.

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Quote from: swogerino on November 28, 2022, 02:58:24 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on November 28, 2022, 10:16:37 AM

^ What do you mean? Binotto wasn't team principal for Ferrari until the year 2019. If he's going to step down, he should likely be back to his role back as the chief technical officer. But if you're saying that he should totally be given the sack then who should replace him? I've said this before but I'll say it again, I think it's going to be a mistake. I'm sure some of you would disagree just because, but ok.. A part of me wants to see Binotto get the sack just to see if I'm right or not. Lol. It's going to be a big loss for Ferrari, I feel like.

If there is no better replacement then maybe it is going to be an error but the fact that Ferrari is not winning a title from the distant year of 2007 says a lot about how the team is being managed,not in the best way I would say and there has been some changes in the direction with Binotto also being promoted in 2019 but he was there a lot of years before so in this context I think his time has come only if the replacement will bring better result to the team.Unfortunately for this year he took all the blame despite the team strategy being screwed up by other members but since he is the principal those people are there with his approval so it is normal all the rage to be geared toward him.In this context I think this year has been really bad for Ferrari starting as heavy favorites and losing because of terrible mistakes.

Binotto is a good engineer. It's just Mercedes was dominating F1 due to their engine advantage after the sport's switch to the V6 engines. But they did almost win during 2018. If not for some of Vettel's errors and esp in Germany, of all places, I think they would've won the title.

Ferrari needs a good team principal and a good race strategist. The race strategist they have now is a clown. There were races when ot was Sainz told the team what to do. Lol.

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Quote from: Davian144 on November 29, 2022, 02:44:45 AM

It could be said that this year the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers experienced a decline in performance. Both in the MotoGP arena and in the WSBK event and this has raised concerns from two people who have been in the MotoGP paddock and one of them is a former MotoGP racer. They are Brivio and Rossi who are both concerned about Japanese manufacturers over the slowing progress of Japanese manufacturers.

Over the last almost five decades, brands from Japan have dominated the 500cc and MotoGP classes. In 1975, Giacomo Agostini became world champion with Yamaha. The era of Italy, which has ruled relentlessly since 1952, is over. Until the end of 2021, all Japanese motorbike riders sit as world champions with one exception. The anomaly occurred in 2007, when Casey Stoner was with Ducati. In the 2022 season, the Borgo Panigale squad won again with Francesco Bagnaia.
[reference]: https://id.motorsport.com/motogp/news/

I think one year of losing does not mean that they are on the decline.It may happen that for that particular year Italian manufacturers like Ducati and others have worked better and their riders have been performing better,you cannot blame only the manufacturer,Marquez a great rider despite being heavily damaged when returned in the last races showed that the Honda brand was still good enough under his ride able to lead many laps.

We have to see if the same occurs for other 2 consecutive seasons and if Japanese brands do not do that well then we can say that we are seeing slowly a decline but judging from just one year is not correct.

Davian144

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It could be said that this year the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers experienced a decline in performance. Both in the MotoGP arena and in the WSBK event and this has raised concerns from two people who have been in the MotoGP paddock and one of them is a former MotoGP racer. They are Brivio and Rossi who are both concerned about Japanese manufacturers over the slowing progress of Japanese manufacturers.

Over the last almost five decades, brands from Japan have dominated the 500cc and MotoGP classes. In 1975, Giacomo Agostini became world champion with Yamaha. The era of Italy, which has ruled relentlessly since 1952, is over. Until the end of 2021, all Japanese motorbike riders sit as world champions with one exception. The anomaly occurred in 2007, when Casey Stoner was with Ducati. In the 2022 season, the Borgo Panigale squad won again with Francesco Bagnaia.
[reference]: https://id.motorsport.com/motogp/news/

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It makes sense to send away Binotto but that's not going to be enough. Not all mistakes were made by him, considering they had race engineers and pit stop staff and strategy people and so forth, they need a whole change.

Pit could wait, that is not a rush, but the race engineer and strategy people need to change asap, Binotto is a good start but they need at least 1 or 2 good people on strategy that can make good calls otherwise they are going to end up with more and more unexpected losses. This year Charles could have finished with nearly 100 more points if they were smarter about when to pit and what to pick for tires, that's it, simple stuff for f1 level of strategy people.

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Mick Schumacher is getting close to Mercedes day by day. There are already news about this on some websites like the Mick transfer is done for Mercedes. But I didn't see any official statement by Mercedes side yet. But Mick is very likely to be their third driver in the near future. As Ricciardo is going to Red Bull as the third driver his probability to join Mercedes has finished. By the way it would have been better for him to go to Mercedes instead of returning to Red Bull but let's see.

I'm happy for Mick that he didn't need to wait for some time to get an offer from any team. Because in addition to Haas' parting ways with him, he wasn't going to be a part of Ferrari academy team any longer as well. Now he will need to be patient until Hamilton retires. He can still race for Mercedes when one of the drivers isn't able to race as well of course.

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Quote from: tokeweed on November 28, 2022, 10:16:37 AM

^ What do you mean? Binotto wasn't team principal for Ferrari until the year 2019. If he's going to step down, he should likely be back to his role back as the chief technical officer. But if you're saying that he should totally be given the sack then who should replace him? I've said this before but I'll say it again, I think it's going to be a mistake. I'm sure some of you would disagree just because, but ok.. A part of me wants to see Binotto get the sack just to see if I'm right or not. Lol. It's going to be a big loss for Ferrari, I feel like.

If there is no better replacement then maybe it is going to be an error but the fact that Ferrari is not winning a title from the distant year of 2007 says a lot about how the team is being managed,not in the best way I would say and there has been some changes in the direction with Binotto also being promoted in 2019 but he was there a lot of years before so in this context I think his time has come only if the replacement will bring better result to the team.Unfortunately for this year he took all the blame despite the team strategy being screwed up by other members but since he is the principal those people are there with his approval so it is normal all the rage to be geared toward him.In this context I think this year has been really bad for Ferrari starting as heavy favorites and losing because of terrible mistakes.

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Quote from: LTU_btc on November 23, 2022, 07:06:52 PM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 23, 2022, 04:50:34 PM

Maybe he thinks he can beat Max.

Riccardo is a great driver, back in day he won many races on RBR, the problem is that I don't think RBR wants to have a competitive driver in a competitive car who can race against MAX.

Never put 2 lions in the same cage.

The history speaks for itself,

Rosberg-Hamilton 2016
Alonso-Hamilton 2007
Senna-Prost '90

Ricciardo logic is very strange for me. He left Red Bull as he didn't wanted to be 2nd driver, as they preferred Verstappen. He also didn't wanted to reace for team which isn't very competetive, like Haas. And now he joins Red Bull just to be 3rd driver. I don't know what to think about it.
As much as I like Perez, he didn't reached his and team goal of seaon - end 2nd in driver's championship. It seems that he have more ambitions than to be back wing of Verstappen, but it's more than obvious that Red Bull won't let him to fight with Max for the title. You said very well that it's not good idea to have 2 lions in same cage. But for me it seems that sooner or later driver who have role just to help for leader, sooner or later become pissed off.

I don't think Redbull is too happy with Sergio Perez. After all, verstappen is in the 1st driver position. Whoever comes next to Verstappen will be the 2nd pilot.

However, it will be expected to show a certain performance in its 2nd pilot. At Mercedes, although Bottas had better results than Sergio Perez, he still was not accepted in the team. Naturally, it may not be accepted by Sergio Perez.

Next season he will be at the top of Sergio Perez. This will either increase his performance or next season the redbull 2nd pilot seat will be riccardio's. Like every human being, their ideas and behaviors can change. It is unnecessary to make fun of him by saying that he said so 5 years ago. Anyway, he's one of the best drivers on the grid. I hope he will adapt to the car quickly and we will see him on the track again in 2024.

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