[ POLL ] The Unification Fight: FURY vs USYK 17th FEBRUARY 2024 - page 14.

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Quote from: South Park on June 02, 2024, 02:00:21 PM

Quote from: TopTort777 on May 31, 2024, 04:18:24 AM

Since you are talking about belts, I want to make it clear, Fury wants a rematch because he wants his belts back, or he wants to avenge his only loss in boxing? In case Usyk looses one of his belts for any reason, would Fury be interested in rematch? Why not make it fight the way Fury had against Ngannou? Make a fight to find out who really is the best heavyweight again.

Anyone knows if in the past there was also such a mess in division, belts and rematches?

Fury wants everything, he wants revenge, the belts, the undisputed, the fame and the money, so even if Usyk was stripped from his IBF belt, there are enough reasons for Fury to want the rematch against Usyk, besides if he does not take the option now that Usyk is contractually obligated to fight him, there is no way to tell if he will ever have the chance to fight him again.

And concerning the past, boxing has always been kind of a mess since we can have mandatory challengers, interim champions and national champions, and to make things even more complex there is also the concept of lineal champion, in which in order to be the man you have to beat the man, so there could be instances in which the lineal champion may not hold any of the belts of the four major boxing organizations.

Fury wants revenge at all cost, he is not happy that he lost to Usyk. This time around he is not interested in money he just want to prove that he is the man to be feared and respected in the industry. Fury still doesn't believe that he lost the match and lost his prestigious belt. This rematch you will see that fury won't be showing more interest in money the way he did during their first fight. You know that feeling when you have a reputation to maintain, he just want to make sure that he correct the little mistake that made him lost to Usyk. Left for Fury alone he is willing to do the rematch right away. But my advice to Fury is that he should not be consumed with the thought of revenge because he might still make some mistakes along the line. He would have retired before now, if he wanted to maintain an unbeaten career record, but his love for money put him in this mess. Good luck to him in the rematch, but I think Usyk is still going to beat him the second time.

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Quote from: South Park on June 02, 2024, 02:00:21 PM

Quote from: TopTort777 on May 31, 2024, 04:18:24 AM

Since you are talking about belts, I want to make it clear, Fury wants a rematch because he wants his belts back, or he wants to avenge his only loss in boxing? In case Usyk looses one of his belts for any reason, would Fury be interested in rematch? Why not make it fight the way Fury had against Ngannou? Make a fight to find out who really is the best heavyweight again.

Anyone knows if in the past there was also such a mess in division, belts and rematches?

Fury wants everything, he wants revenge, the belts, the undisputed, the fame and the money, so even if Usyk was stripped from his IBF belt, there are enough reasons for Fury to want the rematch against Usyk, besides if he does not take the option now that Usyk is contractually obligated to fight him, there is no way to tell if he will ever have the chance to fight him again.

And concerning the past, boxing has always been kind of a mess since we can have mandatory challengers, interim champions and national champions, and to make things even more complex there is also the concept of lineal champion, in which in order to be the man you have to beat the man, so there could be instances in which the lineal champion may not hold any of the belts of the four major boxing organizations.

Indeed. Too many reasons for Fury to activate the rematch. I guess the money alone is just too big to refuse. But I won't be surprised too if Fury all of a sudden withdraws again and postpone the rematch or who knows, won't fight Usyk again. I believe there are mental effects on that defeat, he was badly hurt and blooded and probably a broken nose that they're not telling the public which is why the rematch date is just too far from my expectations. Some fighters changed forever from that kind of defeat and we're about to find out if Fury.

I remember there were times when Marco Antonio Barrera and Ricky Hatton were lineal champs yet they held no belts from the big 4. Boxing is a corrupt sport, 4 major sanctioning bodies and The Ring belt which used to be the basis for the lineal champion. But after GBP purchased The Ring, there's conflict of interest already which is why another group (tbrb.org) was founded.

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Quote from: TopTort777 on May 31, 2024, 04:18:24 AM

Since you are talking about belts, I want to make it clear, Fury wants a rematch because he wants his belts back, or he wants to avenge his only loss in boxing? In case Usyk looses one of his belts for any reason, would Fury be interested in rematch? Why not make it fight the way Fury had against Ngannou? Make a fight to find out who really is the best heavyweight again.

Anyone knows if in the past there was also such a mess in division, belts and rematches?

Fury wants everything, he wants revenge, the belts, the undisputed, the fame and the money, so even if Usyk was stripped from his IBF belt, there are enough reasons for Fury to want the rematch against Usyk, besides if he does not take the option now that Usyk is contractually obligated to fight him, there is no way to tell if he will ever have the chance to fight him again.

And concerning the past, boxing has always been kind of a mess since we can have mandatory challengers, interim champions and national champions, and to make things even more complex there is also the concept of lineal champion, in which in order to be the man you have to beat the man, so there could be instances in which the lineal champion may not hold any of the belts of the four major boxing organizations.

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Quote from: hilariousetc on May 30, 2024, 04:02:52 AM

I don't think they should have stripped him as long as they agree to get the rematch done ASAP and give the mandatory as guaranteed slot against the winner. The rematch should still have all the belts on the line but they shouldn't be allowed to continually hold the division up and with the rematch now scheduled for December that's the whole year out of action. They should have tried to get the rematch done within a few months in my opinion.

I wonder how things are perceived from the boxing organisations point of view (be it the IBF or other). Is it better for them to have their belt being just a part of big bundle, or would that rather have their own, unique champion.
The truth is, if not for the risk of Usyk getting stripped, the IBF or Hrgovic would not get half the media coverage that they did receive in recent time. So it wouldn't surprise me if the IBF wanted to take the belt away from Usyk, just to appear more prestigious and uncompromising.

From a purely sport perspective, holding up the division and making the mandatory contender wait for over, with no concrete date in sight does not sounds very fair.

Anyhow, with 1 day to go, it's safe to say that there will be no interim belt on the line in the Hrgovic Vs. Dubois bout, so let's see how will things unfold after the fight.

In the new poll, I voted Fury. I simply think he will go all in as he's got nothing to lose. Plus, he performs better in rematches.

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Since you are talking about belts, I want to make it clear, Fury wants a rematch because he wants his belts back, or he wants to avenge his only loss in boxing? In case Usyk looses one of his belts for any reason, would Fury be interested in rematch? Why not make it fight the way Fury had against Ngannou? Make a fight to find out who really is the best heavyweight again.

Anyone knows if in the past there was also such a mess in division, belts and rematches?

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I hope there will be no problems with Fury and Usyk having their rematch in December with all of the titles on the line. If Usyk gets forced to surrender any of his belts by any of the boxing authorities then it will be a total injustice to the significance of the rematch. All of the boxing authorities are within their rights to force their champion to fight their number one ranked contender but they should keep in mind contractual agreements for rematches.

Quote from: Kemarit on May 30, 2024, 05:02:06 PM

Depends on which organization are going to let Usyk in this case he won the rematch and has all the belts fight next as their mandatory. So I don't think that the belt will all be in the line in his next fight. Unless the fighter that he is facing is the number 1 contender in all division, but that rarely happen.

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Quote from: KTChampions on May 30, 2024, 12:19:49 PM

Quote from: JollyGood on May 29, 2024, 05:03:32 PM

Quote from: KTChampions on May 29, 2024, 01:06:14 PM

It’s a pity that the loser has a chance for all the belts at once, it seems to me that this is not entirely fair, in my opinion, belts should be collected gradually and not taken away in a bunch (in this case, there may be too many undisputed champions if one loses to a second, a second to a third, etc. ).
It will be interesting to look at the quotes for the fight, the first fight was quoted as absolutely equal to 1.85 - 1.85.

If all the belts were available for the first fight and they had a two-fight clause, then I see no reason why all the belts should not be on the line for the rematch. There is still a chance any of the licencing bodies could come up with some reason to strip Usyk of any of his titles but that seems slim to zero after the IBF seems unlikely to strip Usyk of his belt.
~

Yes, it's true, no one wants to lose their belt (or belts on the first try) so a rematch should ideally have the same value as the first fight. But my reasoning concerns the general situation: let’s say Usyk wins the rematch, but then loses the next fight to some contender. If all the belts are at stake in that fight, then the contender will become the undisputed champion in one fight, in my opinion this should not happen. If I remember correctly, there are fights when one belt is at stake (although the boxer has others), this probably somehow solves this problem.

Depends on which organization are going to let Usyk in this case he won the rematch and has all the belts fight next as their mandatory. So I don't think that the belt will all be in the line in his next fight. Unless the fighter that he is facing is the number 1 contender in all division, but that rarely happen.

So in any case, it will be just one belt in the line in Usyk's next fight. And it's really hard to defend all your belt against all the mandatories of the 4 governing body. That's why there are times that the undisputed champion vacated at least 1 or 2 or even 3 of his belts and then focus on only 1 belt that is most important, usually it's the WBC.

Here is a recent example, Crawford who become undisputed at 140 lbs but then vacated the IBF belt in 2 weeks after unifying.

https://www.boxingnews24.com/2017/08/terence-crawford-vacates-ibf-140-lb-title/

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Quote from: JollyGood on May 29, 2024, 05:03:32 PM

Quote from: KTChampions on May 29, 2024, 01:06:14 PM

It’s a pity that the loser has a chance for all the belts at once, it seems to me that this is not entirely fair, in my opinion, belts should be collected gradually and not taken away in a bunch (in this case, there may be too many undisputed champions if one loses to a second, a second to a third, etc. ).
It will be interesting to look at the quotes for the fight, the first fight was quoted as absolutely equal to 1.85 - 1.85.

If all the belts were available for the first fight and they had a two-fight clause, then I see no reason why all the belts should not be on the line for the rematch. There is still a chance any of the licencing bodies could come up with some reason to strip Usyk of any of his titles but that seems slim to zero after the IBF seems unlikely to strip Usyk of his belt.
~

Yes, it's true, no one wants to lose their belt (or belts on the first try) so a rematch should ideally have the same value as the first fight. But my reasoning concerns the general situation: let’s say Usyk wins the rematch, but then loses the next fight to some contender. If all the belts are at stake in that fight, then the contender will become the undisputed champion in one fight, in my opinion this should not happen. If I remember correctly, there are fights when one belt is at stake (although the boxer has others), this probably somehow solves this problem.

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Quote from: FinneysTrueVision on May 30, 2024, 12:06:59 AM

Hrgovic has been mandatory for years already. At this point, the only way they will make an exception is if the Saudis can bribe Hrgovic and his promoter with enough money to agree to step aside. Considering the magnitude of the Fury vs. Usyk rivalry, it might just be more lucrative to keep stepping aside.

I expect Hrgovic to beat Dubois but if he loses or if it ends in a draw, it will play in to favour with Usyk as the IBF could still try to force him to fight their number one contender but Hrgovic carries the potential whereas Dubois does not. In that scenario, the rematch with Fury could go ahead with the peace of mind that all of the belts will go back on the line and will be made available to the winner. I think that is a fair assessment.

Quote from: hilariousetc on May 30, 2024, 04:02:52 AM

My vote will be the same: Usyk. Whilst I expected him to win on points in the first match he almost got the KO had the ref not stepped in so maybe Usyk will get the KO this time. With that being said, Fury now knows what to expect and what he has to do to try win so I expect he's the one that is going to go hell for leather for a KO as that's the only way he's going to win.

I am not surprised you are confident Usyk will win the rematch, he is after-all an absolutely solid technical fighter but the threat from Fury remains. As you stated, Fury knows what to expect when enters the ring in December but Usyk also knows what to expect too.

It will not be a let down, the rematch should be another stunning spectacle but here is where the difference might be made: Usyk gave 100% and was on top of his game when won but Fury only showed glimpses through rounds 4-6 which was when he clearly dominated and shook Usyk several times.

I really hope there will no nasty surprises before the rematch takes place such as injuries, delays, failed drugs tests or any excuses because boxing fans deserve to see the rematch and also both Fury and Usyk deserve to fulfil the contractual requirements of their rematch.

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Not really sure why but I have a feeling Fury will win the rematch. It’s just a hunch but I think losing the first fight will have really hurt his pride and I think he’ll work harder than ever to avenge the defeat which would set up an epic trilogy fight.

It was only round 9 in the first fight where Usyk was much better than Fury. I think Fury has a bigger knockout power than the Ukranian. Any way, we don’t have long to wait now.

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Quote from: inthelongrun on May 27, 2024, 12:34:07 PM

I hope the IBF will stick to their earlier statement and that is to strip Usyk of his belt unless he comes with an agreement which is most likely to pay Filip a step aside fee.

The IBF is known for many years as the most reliable among those major belts, enforcing strictly on their mandatories. They even stripped popular champions like Lennox Lewis. But the IBF changed when Daryl Peoples assumed leadership. Errol Spence and some fighters were given special treatments. So I won't be surprised if Hrgovic will be fighting for the useless interim belt instead of the real IBF belt even without receiving a step aside fee.

I don't think they should have stripped him as long as they agree to get the rematch done ASAP and give the mandatory as guaranteed slot against the winner. The rematch should still have all the belts on the line but they shouldn't be allowed to continually hold the division up and with the rematch now scheduled for December that's the whole year out of action. They should have tried to get the rematch done within a few months in my opinion.

Quote from: JollyGood on May 28, 2024, 09:38:46 AM

As far as the rematch is concerned, I will reset the poll because it will be interesting to see how forum members vote this time after Usyk was awarded a majority decision in the first fight. At this moment in time, I am absolutely convinced Fury will win the rematch if it goes ahead because he will be the hungrier of the two and he will try to step up in the way he did during his trilogy with Wilder. Obviously I could be proved wrong and not only that, maybe Usyk will step up and be even better (and maybe I will change my opinion as we get closer to the date).

Earlier today, Frank Warren stated both boxers want the rematch and a date/venue will be announced soon. I hope it does go ahead.

My vote will be the same: Usyk. Whilst I expected him to win on points in the first match he almost got the KO had the ref not stepped in so maybe Usyk will get the KO this time. With that being said, Fury now knows what to expect and what he has to do to try win so I expect he's the one that is going to go hell for leather for a KO as that's the only way he's going to win.

Quote from: boltz on May 29, 2024, 02:24:17 PM

Why again Saudi Arabia ? I think they are better places for a boxing game of this caliber to be held on like Europe per example ? Lately UFC and even WWE chose to have big events there at least 2-3 times per year because of the big amount of money they get from this events but Europe should have have this rematch between Fury and Usyk and even if I vote for Fury , I believe Usyk will have win back 2 back games against him.

It's just money. To be fair, without the Saudi's this fight may have never happened in the first place. Turki did say he's planning some events in the UK so at least there's that.

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Quote from: JollyGood on May 29, 2024, 05:03:32 PM

If all the belts were available for the first fight and they had a two-fight clause, then I see no reason why all the belts should not be on the line for the rematch. There is still a chance any of the licencing bodies could come up with some reason to strip Usyk of any of his titles but that seems slim to zero after the IBF seems unlikely to strip Usyk of his belt.

The IBF just ordered Canelo to fight William Scull, a completely unknown and undeserving fighter who somehow managed to become mandatory. Canelo decided to vacate the belt. The IBF is very strict with their rules even when it will have an unproductive result that ends up fragmenting the belts so that an inferior fighter can have the opportunity to become champion.

Hrgovic has been mandatory for years already. At this point, the only way they will make an exception is if the Saudis can bribe Hrgovic and his promoter with enough money to agree to step aside. Considering the magnitude of the Fury vs. Usyk rivalry, it might just be more lucrative to keep stepping aside.

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Quote from: boltz on May 29, 2024, 02:24:17 PM

Why again Saudi Arabia ? I think they are better places for a boxing game of this caliber to be held on like Europe per example ? Lately UFC and even WWE chose to have big events there at least 2-3 times per year because of the big amount of money they get from this events but Europe should have have this rematch between Fury and Usyk and even if I vote for Fury , I believe Usyk will have win back 2 back games against him.

Haven't you seen the Saudi has been posting a lot of big fights? Everyone is one board with His Excellency Turki Alalshikh as the powerful broker in boxing as he had most of the biggest fights in the last year or so held on that region.

Europe will also be good place to held this fight, unfortunately, there could not be enough money that can host the rematch more than Saudi itself. The budget, the money being generated is so huge that promoters, and obviously boxers can't refuse the offer of HE Alalshikh. His influence is so big right now.

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Quote from: KTChampions on May 29, 2024, 01:06:14 PM

It’s a pity that the loser has a chance for all the belts at once, it seems to me that this is not entirely fair, in my opinion, belts should be collected gradually and not taken away in a bunch (in this case, there may be too many undisputed champions if one loses to a second, a second to a third, etc. ).
It will be interesting to look at the quotes for the fight, the first fight was quoted as absolutely equal to 1.85 - 1.85.

If all the belts were available for the first fight and they had a two-fight clause, then I see no reason why all the belts should not be on the line for the rematch. There is still a chance any of the licencing bodies could come up with some reason to strip Usyk of any of his titles but that seems slim to zero after the IBF seems unlikely to strip Usyk of his belt.

Quote from: pawel7777 on May 29, 2024, 02:21:38 PM

I don't see much sense in introducing an interim belt given Usyk is not seriously injured and would be ready to fight if he wanted to.

There are far too many rumours circulating within heavyweight boxing circles at the moment. I cannot see any interim belt being produced, that is just a step too far for an unnecessary project. It probably will not be worth going through the hassle.

Quote from: boltz on May 29, 2024, 02:24:17 PM

Why again Saudi Arabia ? I think they are better places for a boxing game of this caliber to be held on like Europe per example ? Lately UFC and even WWE chose to have big events there at least 2-3 times per year because of the big amount of money they get from this events but Europe should have have this rematch between Fury and Usyk and even if I vote for Fury , I believe Usyk will have win back 2 back games against him.

There is around £100 million to be shared between the parties therefore the fight had to take place in a country where there was money available. Many countries could have staged the event and handled the capacity but they would not have been able to bring £100 million to the table. The fact is the boxers and their managers were always going to follow the money and it led to Saudi Arabia, not many countries were ever going to be able to give to stump up those sorts of astronomical amounts of money.

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Why again Saudi Arabia ? I think they are better places for a boxing game of this caliber to be held on like Europe per example ? Lately UFC and even WWE chose to have big events there at least 2-3 times per year because of the big amount of money they get from this events but Europe should have have this rematch between Fury and Usyk and even if I vote for Fury , I believe Usyk will have win back 2 back games against him.

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Quote from: JollyGood on May 29, 2024, 11:51:16 AM

The new date for the rematch has been officially released to take place in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: 21st December 2024

It seems commentators and speculators are confident Usyk will not be stripped of the IBF title because he is under medical suspension until 2nd June 2024 but Filip Hrgovic and Daniel Dubois take to the ring on 1st June 2024. It works in favour of both Fury and Usyk because all the belts are going on back the line for a winner-takes-them-all to be the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Thanks for the update.

Yeah, Usyk almost definitely will not be stripped before 2nd June, but that's not to say the IBF cannot do it after that date.
Given the rematch is scheduled 2 months later than initially indicated, any potential mandatory defense will not take place until around a year from now at the earliest. I find it hard to believe the IBF will grant the exception and postpone the defense for that long, as it would be unfair to the challengers. Plus, there's no guarantee the winner of the rematch will be interested in defending that belt at all.
I expect there will be no interim belt on the line on Saturday and Usyk to be stripped after the 2nd of June. Then the fight between Hrgovic/Dubois and Anthony Joshua would be for the proper belt (not the interim one).
I don't see much sense in introducing an interim belt given Usyk is not seriously injured and would be ready to fight if he wanted to.

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Quote from: JollyGood on May 29, 2024, 11:51:16 AM

The new date for the rematch has been officially released to take place in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: 21st December 2024

It seems commentators and speculators are confident Usyk will not be stripped of the IBF title because he is under medical suspension until 2nd June 2024 but Filip Hrgovic and Daniel Dubois take to the ring on 1st June 2024. It works in favour of both Fury and Usyk because all the belts are going on back the line for a winner-takes-them-all to be the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Here is the new updated record for both boxers:

It’s a pity that the loser has a chance for all the belts at once, it seems to me that this is not entirely fair, in my opinion, belts should be collected gradually and not taken away in a bunch (in this case, there may be too many undisputed champions if one loses to a second, a second to a third, etc. ).
It will be interesting to look at the quotes for the fight, the first fight was quoted as absolutely equal to 1.85 - 1.85.

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The new date for the rematch has been officially released to take place in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: 21st December 2024

It seems commentators and speculators are confident Usyk will not be stripped of the IBF title because he is under medical suspension until 2nd June 2024 but Filip Hrgovic and Daniel Dubois take to the ring on 1st June 2024. It works in favour of both Fury and Usyk because all the belts are going on back the line for a winner-takes-them-all to be the undisputed heavyweight champion.

Here is the new updated record for both boxers:

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I don't think the possibility of Usyk being stripped of the IBF belt would be any threat to the rematch with Fury. The rematch will happen regardless of the IBF's decision.
That's simply because the only way for Fury to save his face/legacy is to go out there and take his revenge on Usyk. What other option does he have? Refuse to fight because the number of belts is not quite the same as in their 1st fight? That would be nonsense.

As for the IBF belt, it's a bit weird that we're only a few days away from Hrgovic Vs Dubois and nobody seems to know whether it's going to be a fight for the belt, interim belt, or no belt at all.
I think we can rule out the belt, as Usyk is on medical suspension until 2nd June, unless the IBF really want to strip him (I don't believe they are) and will find some loophole to do it before the 1st.

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Quote from: pawel7777 on May 26, 2024, 11:01:29 AM

Quote from: Kemarit on May 25, 2024, 05:40:15 PM

(...) as Usyk could still be wearing it until such time that he will have his rematch with Tyson Fury.(...)

Not necessarily. Only if the IBF grants him the exception his team asked for. Otherwise, he's "protected" only until 2nd June. After that, the IBF could demand him to fight the interim belt holder next. The whole idea of the interim championship is that the original champ has to face the interim champ after his return.

Quote from: Kemarit on May 25, 2024, 05:40:15 PM

Also from what I read, the powerful broker, HE Turki Alalshikh spoke to Flip Hrgovic and could have a verbal agreement that the fight is going to be for the interim belt and maybe wait for the result of the Fury vs Usyk as he could be next in the line.

Have you got a link to that? All I can find is that Alalshikh has announced that the winner of Hrgovic Vs Dubois will face Anthony Joshua in September:
https://talksport.com/sport/1869699/anthony-joshua-next-fight-tyson-fury-dubois-hrgovic/

Which would indicate that either:
1 - no interim belt will be introduced and Usyk will be granted the exception and then the winner of Usyk Vs Fury 2 will face the winner of Hrgovic/Dubois Vs Joshua for the IBF title shot; or
2 - Usyk will be stripped and the winner of Hrgovis Vs Dubois will face Joshua for the IBF belt, and whoever wins then could maybe face the winner of Usyk Vs Fury 2.

That's how I read the situation anyway.

If my memory serves me right, it was from from Twitter though, I will try to look at again if I'm can. Hopefully, Usyk will be granted the exception by the IBF and not stripped of the belt. And it's more on the side of Fury though, as him and Usyk fought for all the major belts, so in the rematch it should be the same and granting Fury a change to win all 4 belts.

There are a lot of scenarios right now with that news of IBF stripping Usyk. But again, we can only wait, let's see what the IBF will decide and then we can all speculate as how the fight of Hrgovic vs Dubois will be treated.

Topic: [ POLL ] The Unification Fight: FURY vs USYK 17th FEBRUARY 2024 - page 14. (Read 5484 times)