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Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 366. (Read 845569 times)

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 15, 2014, 11:15:23 AM
If anyone wants to see just how far along science is in finding out about evolution, all you need to do is look at these 3 videos provided by https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9715659 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqPGOhXoprU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ5jh33OiOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfq5-i8xoIU

Note in the videos that as much as 50% of the videos contain words to the effect of, we don't know, we aren't sure, maybe, if, etc. Why isn't science sure about much? Because the universe and life are so complex that scientists are simply scratching the surface about how things work. They don't have any clue how things got to this point of complexity.

The complexity of the universe is not proof that God exists, but along with cause and effect, and the spiritual nature of almost all people on Earth, God is way more of a viable reason why things exist, than anything else we can come up with.

Smiley

EDIT: Read this post https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9723441 .
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 15, 2014, 10:55:19 AM
Hell and Heaven are the two famous words which are related to mythology and in some way or the other are related to god's existence.


According to legend, in 1989 a team of Russian scientists who were operating under the direction of Dr. Azzacove drilled a hole that was nine miles deep in an unnamed place in Siberia before breaking through into a cavity. Intrigued by this unexpected discovery, they lowered an extremely heat tolerant microphone, along with other sensory equipment, into the well. They listened and recorded (purportedly) the tormented screams of desperate people. The second surprise was the high temperature that they discovered at the earth's center, which was over 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The conclusion was that they had opened a hole into Hell.
Thus, the existence of hell was scientifically proved.



I thought we already discussed that in here, and found that it was a prank, ot at least, disproven.

Smiley
newbie
Activity: 48
Merit: 0
December 15, 2014, 08:57:56 AM
Hell and Heaven are the two famous words which are related to mythology and in some way or the other are related to god's existence.


According to legend, in 1989 a team of Russian scientists who were operating under the direction of Dr. Azzacove drilled a hole that was nine miles deep in an unnamed place in Siberia before breaking through into a cavity. Intrigued by this unexpected discovery, they lowered an extremely heat tolerant microphone, along with other sensory equipment, into the well. They listened and recorded (purportedly) the tormented screams of desperate people. The second surprise was the high temperature that they discovered at the earth's center, which was over 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The conclusion was that they had opened a hole into Hell.
Thus, the existence of hell was scientifically proved.

full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
December 15, 2014, 08:53:17 AM
The proof given below is the most acceptable scientific proof for GOD's existence.

In every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!

Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.

existence of God
Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 13, 2014, 03:42:45 AM
Atheism is a religion. It is a religion of hate for God.
Atheists don't hate god. They simply just don't believe he exists.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, by your logic I also hate him.

Wrong. Rather, there aren't any true atheists. Why? Because everybody knows in his heart that God exists. Why? Because the Spirit of God is in the heart of everybody, holding every person alive. All know Him instinctively - "no atheists in the foxholes." Extreme joy, or extreme fear or pain in the life of anyone, shows him/her that he/she believes in God.

Those who claim that God doesn't exist are liars. Because of this, essentially there aren't any atheists. Those liars who adamantly claim they are atheists, do so because they think that their claims will make Him go away. They hate Him.

Smiley

I don't believe anyone can be 100% atheist, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

But....

I also don't believe anyone can be 100% religious, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

What does "100% religious" mean? If you mean like I said, that atheists are liars, this is a statement that they are not 100% believers in their religion.

As in 100% belief in whatever god they believe in exists. There will always be that little bit of doubt that their god might not exist.
Just because you don't want to hear what the atheists have to say, doesn't mean they are lying. Their views are just as valid as yours. This is a rather childish if you ask me.

Why do you think I don't want to hear atheists, at least somewhat? I read what they have to say, here. Others just hit "Ignore."

Everyone, as a person, is just as valid as any other person. This means that they have a right to hold their views as being valid. It does not mean that the views themselves are valid.


It works both ways you see.

Your comments suggest to me, that the possibility of god not existing is terrifying to you. Why is that? The only hate I am picking up on is your hate of those that have a different opinion to yourself.

A blind man is walking along on a bridge, tapping away with his cane. Suddenly his cane taps on emptiness. He doesn't realize that he took a wrong turn somewhere in his crossing of the bridge, and he is now standing at the edge of the chasm below. No fear, because he doesn't realize.

A man that can see, standing at the same spot, might be wetting his pants out of fear.

That isn't hate. It is the fear of a seeing harm come to a blind person, actuated by empathy. If the blind man doesn't heed the lack of tap from his cane, or doesn't heed the warning call of the seeing person...

Well, you get the picture.

However, in addition to the above allegory, when people sincerely move in the direction of believing in God, God appreciates that. He is a merciful God. He definitely would turn from His anger about people denying Him, to giving them special blessings for turning to Him. Blessings that come to the nation, come also to me a little.

Selfish, ain't I?

Smiley

LOL, can't help but chuckle when believers claim to be "saving" non-believers. Let me tell you the real reason people come knocking on your front door to "save" the occupier from their sins.

Yes, this is something that believers can't do. Only God can save anybody. Why? Because no believer can keep even himself from dying. Only God who created life in the first place has the power to raise people from the dead.


Selfish, ain't I?
Yes. See above.


Your comments suggest to me, that the possibility of god not existing is terrifying to you. Why is that?
You didn't answer this question.


I don't know why my comments suggest such things to you. I am working on finding out. I am guessing that you have fewer answers than I do. And until your answers satisfy you and make you comfortable, you are trying to push off my answers which make you uncomfortable... even scare you. I didn't answer because I didn't want to push you into examining your inner fear too closely, for fear of frightening you. Now that you are pressing the question, I have answered.

Smiley

I think Buffer Overflow is referring to this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/secondary+gain

In a more general sense of the term, almost everyone seeks some type of secondary gain from even what they consider to be virtuous actions.  For example, I post as I do in this thread because, through now almost 13 years of deep exploration into the topic and having affiliated with at least 6 different spiritual beliefs throughout my life, I genuinely believe that others can benefit from what I've learned and that what I'm saying is generally correct (though admittedly not as precise as I would like, which in itself suggests something).

But my secondary gain is that I'm a narcissist and I like talking about things I feel (key word) confident about so I can assert a dominant perspective.

I think it's okay to acknowledge these things about ourselves.  Maybe it's these 'deficiencies' that give us the necessary motivation to continue, and most importantly to learn from the results.  
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 12, 2014, 10:33:55 PM
Atheism is a religion. It is a religion of hate for God.
Atheists don't hate god. They simply just don't believe he exists.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, by your logic I also hate him.

Wrong. Rather, there aren't any true atheists. Why? Because everybody knows in his heart that God exists. Why? Because the Spirit of God is in the heart of everybody, holding every person alive. All know Him instinctively - "no atheists in the foxholes." Extreme joy, or extreme fear or pain in the life of anyone, shows him/her that he/she believes in God.

Those who claim that God doesn't exist are liars. Because of this, essentially there aren't any atheists. Those liars who adamantly claim they are atheists, do so because they think that their claims will make Him go away. They hate Him.

Smiley

I don't believe anyone can be 100% atheist, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

But....

I also don't believe anyone can be 100% religious, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

What does "100% religious" mean? If you mean like I said, that atheists are liars, this is a statement that they are not 100% believers in their religion.

As in 100% belief in whatever god they believe in exists. There will always be that little bit of doubt that their god might not exist.
Just because you don't want to hear what the atheists have to say, doesn't mean they are lying. Their views are just as valid as yours. This is a rather childish if you ask me.

Why do you think I don't want to hear atheists, at least somewhat? I read what they have to say, here. Others just hit "Ignore."

Everyone, as a person, is just as valid as any other person. This means that they have a right to hold their views as being valid. It does not mean that the views themselves are valid.


It works both ways you see.

Your comments suggest to me, that the possibility of god not existing is terrifying to you. Why is that? The only hate I am picking up on is your hate of those that have a different opinion to yourself.

A blind man is walking along on a bridge, tapping away with his cane. Suddenly his cane taps on emptiness. He doesn't realize that he took a wrong turn somewhere in his crossing of the bridge, and he is now standing at the edge of the chasm below. No fear, because he doesn't realize.

A man that can see, standing at the same spot, might be wetting his pants out of fear.

That isn't hate. It is the fear of a seeing harm come to a blind person, actuated by empathy. If the blind man doesn't heed the lack of tap from his cane, or doesn't heed the warning call of the seeing person...

Well, you get the picture.

However, in addition to the above allegory, when people sincerely move in the direction of believing in God, God appreciates that. He is a merciful God. He definitely would turn from His anger about people denying Him, to giving them special blessings for turning to Him. Blessings that come to the nation, come also to me a little.

Selfish, ain't I?

Smiley

LOL, can't help but chuckle when believers claim to be "saving" non-believers. Let me tell you the real reason people come knocking on your front door to "save" the occupier from their sins.

Yes, this is something that believers can't do. Only God can save anybody. Why? Because no believer can keep even himself from dying. Only God who created life in the first place has the power to raise people from the dead.


Selfish, ain't I?
Yes. See above.


Your comments suggest to me, that the possibility of god not existing is terrifying to you. Why is that?
You didn't answer this question.


I don't know why my comments suggest such things to you. I am working on finding out. I am guessing that you have fewer answers than I do. And until your answers satisfy you and make you comfortable, you are trying to push off my answers which make you uncomfortable... even scare you. I didn't answer because I didn't want to push you into examining your inner fear too closely, for fear of frightening you. Now that you are pressing the question, I have answered.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
December 12, 2014, 04:54:57 PM
Atheism is a religion. It is a religion of hate for God.
Atheists don't hate god. They simply just don't believe he exists.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, by your logic I also hate him.

Wrong. Rather, there aren't any true atheists. Why? Because everybody knows in his heart that God exists. Why? Because the Spirit of God is in the heart of everybody, holding every person alive. All know Him instinctively - "no atheists in the foxholes." Extreme joy, or extreme fear or pain in the life of anyone, shows him/her that he/she believes in God.

Those who claim that God doesn't exist are liars. Because of this, essentially there aren't any atheists. Those liars who adamantly claim they are atheists, do so because they think that their claims will make Him go away. They hate Him.

Smiley

I don't believe anyone can be 100% atheist, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

But....

I also don't believe anyone can be 100% religious, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

What does "100% religious" mean? If you mean like I said, that atheists are liars, this is a statement that they are not 100% believers in their religion.

As in 100% belief in whatever god they believe in exists. There will always be that little bit of doubt that their god might not exist.
Just because you don't want to hear what the atheists have to say, doesn't mean they are lying. Their views are just as valid as yours. This is a rather childish if you ask me.

Interesting isn't it when your highly suspect lies spaw out such as "believe in god or you'll burn", you gloss over those little gems. Interesting.


It works both ways you see.

Your comments suggest to me, that the possibility of god not existing is terrifying to you. Why is that? The only hate I am picking up on is your hate of those that have a different opinion to yourself.

A blind man is walking along on a bridge, tapping away with his cane. Suddenly his cane taps on emptiness. He doesn't realize that he took a wrong turn somewhere in his crossing of the bridge, and he is now standing at the edge of the chasm below. No fear, because he doesn't realize.

A man that can see, standing at the same spot, might be wetting his pants out of fear.

That isn't hate. It is the fear of a seeing harm come to a blind person, actuated by empathy. If the blind man doesn't heed the lack of tap from his cane, or doesn't heed the warning call of the seeing person...

Well, you get the picture.

However, in addition to the above allegory, when people sincerely move in the direction of believing in God, God appreciates that. He is a merciful God. He definitely would turn from His anger about people denying Him, to giving them special blessings for turning to Him. Blessings that come to the nation, come also to me a little.

Selfish, ain't I?

Smiley

LOL, can't help but chuckle when believers claim to be "saving" non-believers. Let me tell you the real reason people come knocking on your front door to "save" the occupier from their sins.

Think of a drug addict going to a few parties one night.
At the first party, out of the 10 people attending he's the only one doing drugs. He feels awkward as everyone else is enjoying their drug free night. He feel isolated, doesn't fit in with the crowd. Starts questioning if he should be doing the drugs or not. Quickley leaves.
At the next party everyone is on drugs. Much better. Feels confident now everyone is "on his side". Doing drugs was the right choice because everyone else is doing it right!

Same thing with religion. The more people they can "get on their side" the better. Proves they are right, because everyone else is believing. Better in a crowd. Safety in numbers. More the merrier. I know, let's go out and get more members to make us stronger.



Let's make one thing quite clear ladies and gentlemen. They are certainly not trying to save anybody apart from themselves.

Selfish, ain't I?
Yes. See above.


Your comments suggest to me, that the possibility of god not existing is terrifying to you. Why is that?
You didn't answer this question.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 12, 2014, 04:08:39 PM
Atheism is a religion. It is a religion of hate for God.
Atheists don't hate god. They simply just don't believe he exists.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, by your logic I also hate him.

Wrong. Rather, there aren't any true atheists. Why? Because everybody knows in his heart that God exists. Why? Because the Spirit of God is in the heart of everybody, holding every person alive. All know Him instinctively - "no atheists in the foxholes." Extreme joy, or extreme fear or pain in the life of anyone, shows him/her that he/she believes in God.

Those who claim that God doesn't exist are liars. Because of this, essentially there aren't any atheists. Those liars who adamantly claim they are atheists, do so because they think that their claims will make Him go away. They hate Him.

Smiley

I don't believe anyone can be 100% atheist, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

But....

I also don't believe anyone can be 100% religious, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

What does "100% religious" mean? If you mean like I said, that atheists are liars, this is a statement that they are not 100% believers in their religion.


Quote
It works both ways you see.

Your comments suggest to me, that the possibility of god not existing is terrifying to you. Why is that? The only hate I am picking up on is your hate of those that have a different opinion to yourself.

A blind man is walking along on a bridge, tapping away with his cane. Suddenly his cane taps on emptiness. He doesn't realize that he took a wrong turn somewhere in his crossing of the bridge, and he is now standing at the edge of the chasm below. No fear, because he doesn't realize.

A man that can see, standing at the same spot, might be wetting his pants out of fear.

That isn't hate. It is the fear of a seeing harm come to a blind person, actuated by empathy. If the blind man doesn't heed the lack of tap from his cane, or doesn't heed the warning call of the seeing person...

Well, you get the picture.

However, in addition to the above allegory, when people sincerely move in the direction of believing in God, God appreciates that. He is a merciful God. He definitely would turn from His anger about people denying Him, to giving them special blessings for turning to Him. Blessings that come to the nation, come also to me a little.

Selfish, ain't I?

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
December 12, 2014, 03:41:09 PM
Atheism is a religion. It is a religion of hate for God.
Atheists don't hate god. They simply just don't believe he exists.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, by your logic I also hate him.

Wrong. Rather, there aren't any true atheists. Why? Because everybody knows in his heart that God exists. Why? Because the Spirit of God is in the heart of everybody, holding every person alive. All know Him instinctively - "no atheists in the foxholes." Extreme joy, or extreme fear or pain in the life of anyone, shows him/her that he/she believes in God.

Those who claim that God doesn't exist are liars. Because of this, essentially there aren't any atheists. Those liars who adamantly claim they are atheists, do so because they think that their claims will make Him go away. They hate Him.

Smiley

I don't believe anyone can be 100% atheist, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

But....

I also don't believe anyone can be 100% religious, as there will always be that little bit of doubt however small.

It works both ways you see.

Your comments suggest to me, that the possibility of god not existing is terrifying to you. Why is that? The only hate I am picking up on is your hate of those that have a different opinion to yourself.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 12, 2014, 02:31:46 PM
Atheism is a religion. It is a religion of hate for God.
Atheists don't hate god. They simply just don't believe he exists.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, by your logic I also hate him.

Wrong. Rather, there aren't any true atheists. Why? Because everybody knows in his heart that God exists. Why? Because the Spirit of God is in the heart of everybody, holding every person alive. All know Him instinctively - "no atheists in the foxholes." Extreme joy, or extreme fear or pain in the life of anyone, shows him/her that he/she believes in God.

Those who claim that God doesn't exist are liars. Because of this, essentially there aren't any atheists. Those liars who adamantly claim they are atheists, do so because they think that their claims will make Him go away. They hate Him.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
December 12, 2014, 01:15:38 PM
Atheism is a religion. It is a religion of hate for God.
Atheists don't hate god. They simply just don't believe he exists.
I don't believe in Santa Claus, by your logic I also hate him.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 12, 2014, 12:23:25 PM
We first have to start with the claim as a hypothetical.  This is permitted because we needn't argue for the claim itself, at least in a direct sense.

The claim, unsupported by any evidence, serves as a point of reference.  Having made the claim, we then need to create a theory that explains the entirety of reality at the height of generality, i.e. a theory whose explanatory power cannot logically be surpassed.  By definition, such a theory would provide insight into the most fundamental characteristics of reality. 

After first demonstrating that such a theory is sound, we look at those fundamental characteristics and hold them up to our initial claim.  If the results of the theory imply the claim, then we can conclude God exists, and at a 100% level of certainty (practically, it's irrelevant if people modify their original claim; identifying and knowing the absolute limit of rational explanation is the important part).

First of all, all you'll have as a result is a hypothesis, not a theory. And that's no more valid than an opinion, albeit based on logical set of words. And second, that theory does not automatically prove god exists, particularly because you would have to define what god is in the first place. So far no one has been able to.

1) How do you figure that "all that results is a hypothesis?"  You don't actually mean this, do you?  To reference a common example, would you consider the derivation of the quadratic formula or any other purely abstract proof a mere "hypothesis"?

2) Scientific hypotheses and theories are not the only kind that matter.  Theories needn't be scientific or empirical to be strong or true,  and needn't be scientific or empirical at all.  Theories are just descriptions of something, and that description can be good, bad, specific, general, etc.  There is absolutely nothing sound about concluding that evidence is required for sound theory making, or that empiricism must lead to the strongest kinds of theories.  In many cases, the opposite is true because empirical theories can never be asserted at a 100% level of confidence, while other types of theories can.

3) Consider that, for example, something like the derivation of the quadratic formula is a purely abstract proof that requires exactly zero physical evidence but yields direct application to physical reality.  Conversely, also consider that empirical methods of analysis maintain certain unfounded assumptions such as the idea that we live in a Positivistic Universe, an idea for which there is no evidence and which can actually be demonstrably proven to be false.

4) You misunderstood my post as evidenced when you say "...you would have to define what god is in the first place."  I already conceded that you can't just ascribe some arbitrary definition for God and start from there.  What I meant is that, practically, if we create a sound theory of reality whose explanatory power is at the height of generality, that theory will either directly reflect whatever preconceived notions we may have had about God, or it won't (or we won't be sure).  For example, if the theory directly implicates consciousness or mind is a common substrate of reality, then, practically speaking, we could say the theory directly implies God.  I say this is 'practical' because the 'practical' difference between a theistic and an atheistic view of the Universe is whether its origins are physical or mental.  Would you have any issue agreeing that God exists if it was proven that reality is a mental construct?

So, again, the idea is not to start with some preconceived notion of God and then attempt to prove that it exists.  Instead, just think of it as an optional consideration...for fun.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 12, 2014, 06:42:20 AM
The universe, nature around us, and life show us that there is something fantastically great behind everything that exists. If there weren't, researchers would have developed life extension so that we could all live to 1000 years old, long ago.

Why do you say that? Is your claim that, because it took our monkey brains hundreds of years to develop understanding and tools to understand biology, that biology is too complex to be created by anything but a god?

Because the whole of entropy and the 2nd Law of Thermal Dynamics show us that the kind of development that goes from nothing to life, is destroyed by nature way faster than it can be propagated, even if it could be shown to be possible to exist and propagate that way, which it hasn't.


As it is, research is still just finding out some of the basics of life. And we certainly don't have the ability to travel the universe. We can barely get off our own planet. Since we don't have much of a handle on anything - like we don't even know how to will ourselves to grow back a finger when we lose one - where does all this complex universe come from?

Why do you say it's complex? That's just your personal opinion, based on your lack of knowledge. Life and the universe are fairly straightforward to biologists, physicists, and engineers. You are arguing from ignorance here, basically claiming "I don't understand, so no one else does either."

If you really believe this, then you are missing a whole lot of scientific research. Creating simple life in the lab is something that is complicated enough that the things that we create can't be ascertained to really be life. Somebody doesn't do this in his garage in his spare time. There are hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment that go into the experiments, and still, there is no certainty that the thing that was created is life. Yet, nature does it all the time, automatically.


We use religion basics in our everyday lives. We "religiously" do certain activities all the time - eating, sleeping, going to the job, breathing.

That's not religion, that's biomechanical processes and instincts Tongue We do them because our body sends signals making us crave those things, and rewards us with physical evidence when we complete the tasks. You don't eat food because you have faith that you are hungry, and have faith that you will feel full after. Conversely, a person born in a society that doesn't believe in god or Jesus (such as in Islamic, Buddhist, Shinto, or atheist society) doesn't get cravings for Jesus.

The idea wasn't that our whole life is a religion. The idea is that we do many things in our lives in a religious way, like a religion.

People forget the morality that is built into them naturally. Without it, we would be savages. Even the animals have certain morality built into them by nature.

Formal religions are there for two reasons: 1) to remind us of the morality we forget; 2) to prepare us to enter into eternal life. The fact that there are bad people who use formal religious societies to do their wicked deeds simply shows us that not every person is morally minded... or headed for eternal life. However, if there were no formal religions to push morality, there would be way more chaos among the lives of people.

You can see that success in the lives of people, equates to the quality of the laws they religiously follow. All you need do is compare the religions of the various nations, and how well the people follow them.


Think long and hard before you decide to bypass religion.

Every atheist in America has. You may assume that atheists started out that way, and just haven't considered the idea of god before, but in fact America is absolutely steeped in religion. 80% of it is Christian (which is why we laugh when they claim religious persecution, or claim they are courageous to say they love Jesus in public), and religion is mentioned everywhere almost daily. So atheists almost always start out christian here,believing what you believe, and then get educated, start questioning and thinking, and come to their senses, realizing that Christian stuff doesn't make sense.

Someone has deluded a whole bunch of folks into thinking that atheism is NOT a religion. Can we prove the existence of God? Can we prove that God does NOT exist? No, both ways. Atheism says that God does not exist, without proof, and even against the odds. Atheism is a religion. It is a religion of hate for God.


Some of that religion is about God, the Guy Who holds your life and existence in the palm of His hand. To see it, simply look at nature around you, and see how your existence fits into everything that exists.

Fitting into things that exist is evolution, not god. You, as a species, would not exist in your environment if you didn't fit into it, because you would either starve due to lack of food you need, or get eaten due to being weak and stupid. So of course every living thing fits into everything that exists. Those who didn't went extinct long ago.

Except for one major thing. Evolution is an idea. It is even touted as only a theory among those who are attempting to prove it. This is because the researchers are just scratching the surface in their proof for evolution. They aren't even far enough along with their evidences to say that their evidence for a factual evolution, do NOT prove God in some other way at the same time. Evolution is nothing. It is fabrication.

Complex universe and life, combined with the wide-spread entropy that exists, combined with the cause and effect nature of everything that exists, suggests God so extremely much that He might as well have been proven. There is so little in the universe that suggests that God DOESN'T exist, that He is essentially proven, even though He technically has not been.

----------

These are words. Anybody can say that they mean nothing. And, of themselves, they mean extremely little. Yet, when the themes that these word express are examined in detail, the themes prove to be truth.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
December 12, 2014, 06:33:39 AM
Rather than trying to prove something that is not provable, look at the various ideas. Various ideas for where the universe came from are?:
1. God;
2. Evolution;

Said another way:
1. Fairy tale with no actual proof
2. Observable reality


We simply don't know where the universe comes from in all its complexity, simplicity, decline (entropy), and seeming ascent at times.

Again, you are arguing from ignorance. YOU don't know where the universe comes from. I and many others (especially astrophysicists) have a pretty good idea. What would you say if I were to claim "We simply don't know where computer software comes from in all its complexity, simplicity, etc., thus the obvious answer is that god wrote it all."Huh


So far, because of our INability to understand all but a little, the best bet is "God," best by a long shot.

That's not a best bet, that's a good of holes. As we learn more and more, your best bet becomes smaller and smaller, and is continuously disproven. That's actually the WORST bet for your god, because such a bet means that god is proven wrong all the time. God moves the heavens? Proven wrong. God makes things fly? Proven wrong. God determines how species change? Proven wrong. God heals illnesses? Proven wrong. And this proving wrong of god and his actions will only continue. So your best bet is to actually get god out of the way of scientific progress before he is completely run over and crushed.

It is even better than saying, Because we don't absolutely know for a fact, I'm simply going to ignore the whole topic.

But that is EXACTLY what you are saying when you claim that god is responsible! You take a complex topic, fail to explain it, and choose to simply ignore it, claiming that it must be god's doing. Scientists don't do that. They say "Because we don't absolutely know for a fact, we'll simply take our best guess, and keep studying until we know better."
Or did I misunderstand you, and are you actually claiming that its better to simply ignore topics we don't understand?
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 12, 2014, 05:54:49 AM
We first have to start with the claim as a hypothetical.  This is permitted because we needn't argue for the claim itself, at least in a direct sense.

The claim, unsupported by any evidence, serves as a point of reference.  Having made the claim, we then need to create a theory that explains the entirety of reality at the height of generality, i.e. a theory whose explanatory power cannot logically be surpassed.  By definition, such a theory would provide insight into the most fundamental characteristics of reality. 

After first demonstrating that such a theory is sound, we look at those fundamental characteristics and hold them up to our initial claim.  If the results of the theory imply the claim, then we can conclude God exists, and at a 100% level of certainty (practically, it's irrelevant if people modify their original claim; identifying and knowing the absolute limit of rational explanation is the important part).

First of all, all you'll have as a result is a hypothesis, not a theory. And that's no more valid than an opinion, albeit based on logical set of words. And second, that theory does not automatically prove god exists, particularly because you would have to define what god is in the first place. So far no one has been able to.

Place everything on an even basis. The question is, "Proof for God?" No absolute proof for God exists, or for anything else that would have the strength of God if He did existed. Forget the proof idea. also, forget the idea of all kinds of processes that such a God - if He exists - might have brought everything into existence.

Rather than trying to prove something that is not provable, look at the various ideas. Various ideas for where the universe came from are?:
1. God;
2. Evolution;
3. Nothing exists; it is all a figment of the imagination (not really a point because the imagination has to come from somewhere);
4. ?;
5. ?;
6. ?...

We simply don't know where the universe comes from in all its complexity, simplicity, decline (entropy), and seeming ascent at times. So far, because of our INability to understand all but a little, the best bet is "God," best by a long shot. It is even better than saying, Because we don't absolutely know for a fact, I'm simply going to ignore the whole topic. Why? No proof, but exceedingly strong evidence.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
December 12, 2014, 05:47:33 AM
The universe, nature around us, and life show us that there is something fantastically great behind everything that exists. If there weren't, researchers would have developed life extension so that we could all live to 1000 years old, long ago.

Why do you say that? Is your claim that, because it took our monkey brains hundreds of years to develop understanding and tools to understand biology, that biology is too complex to be created by anything but a god? Why does a system have to be simple for it to be natural? And, let's say our society collapses, and we lose a lot of our knowledge. Does the fact that it would take centuries to rediscover how to make something as complex as a computer CPU mean that CPUs are made by god? Or better yet, what will you be claiming when, in 50 years or so, we DO figure out how to live to 1000? (We're actually very close, since we understand almost all mechanisms of aging at this point, and are now just working on ways to repair and modify them)


As it is, research is still just finding out some of the basics of life. And we certainly don't have the ability to travel the universe. We can barely get off our own planet. Since we don't have much of a handle on anything - like we don't even know how to will ourselves to grow back a finger when we lose one - where does all this complex universe come from?

Why do you say it's complex? That's just your personal opinion, based on your lack of knowledge. Life and the universe are fairly straightforward to biologists, physicists, and engineers. You are arguing from ignorance here, basically claiming "I don't understand, so no one else does either."


We use religion basics in our everyday lives. We "religiously" do certain activities all the time - eating, sleeping, going to the job, breathing.

That's not religion, that's biomechanical processes and instincts Tongue We do them because our body sends signals making us crave those things, and rewards us with physical evidence when we complete the tasks. You don't eat food because you have faith that you are hungry, and have faith that you will feel full after. Conversely, a person born in a society that doesn't believe in god or Jesus (such as in Islamic, Buddhist, Shinto, or atheist society) doesn't get cravings for Jesus.


Think long and hard before you decide to bypass religion.

Every atheist in America has. You may assume that atheists started out that way, and just haven't considered the idea of god before, but in fact America is absolutely steeped in religion. 80% of it is Christian (which is why we laugh when they claim religious persecution, or claim they are courageous to say they love Jesus in public), and religion is mentioned everywhere almost daily. So atheists almost always start out christian here,believing what you believe, and then get educated, start questioning and thinking, and come to their senses, realizing that Christian stuff doesn't make sense.


Some of that religion is about God, the Guy Who holds your life and existence in the palm of His hand. To see it, simply look at nature around you, and see how your existence fits into everything that exists.

Fitting into things that exist is evolution, not god. You, as a species, would not exist in your environment if you didn't fit into it, because you would either starve due to lack of food you need, or get eaten due to being weak and stupid. So of course every living thing fits into everything that exists. Those who didn't went extinct long ago.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
December 12, 2014, 05:25:50 AM
We first have to start with the claim as a hypothetical.  This is permitted because we needn't argue for the claim itself, at least in a direct sense.

The claim, unsupported by any evidence, serves as a point of reference.  Having made the claim, we then need to create a theory that explains the entirety of reality at the height of generality, i.e. a theory whose explanatory power cannot logically be surpassed.  By definition, such a theory would provide insight into the most fundamental characteristics of reality. 

After first demonstrating that such a theory is sound, we look at those fundamental characteristics and hold them up to our initial claim.  If the results of the theory imply the claim, then we can conclude God exists, and at a 100% level of certainty (practically, it's irrelevant if people modify their original claim; identifying and knowing the absolute limit of rational explanation is the important part).

First of all, all you'll have as a result is a hypothesis, not a theory. And that's no more valid than an opinion, albeit based on logical set of words. And second, that theory does not automatically prove god exists, particularly because you would have to define what god is in the first place. So far no one has been able to.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
December 12, 2014, 05:11:46 AM
Check out the movie Zeitgeist. It tells all about how Christianity is a actually astrology - related cr**. People, don't be ridiculous, you have one life, live it freely, don't be mislead by religion, cause it's all just a joke. There, I rest my case.

Now we have 2 Gods? Astrology is crap. Any god it produces is crap.

The universe, nature around us, and life show us that there is something fantastically great behind everything that exists. If there weren't, researchers would have developed life extension so that we could all live to 1000 years old, long ago.

As it is, research is still just finding out some of the basics of life. And we certainly don't have the ability to travel the universe. We can barely get off our own planet. Since we don't have much of a handle on anything - like we don't even know how to will ourselves to grow back a finger when we lose one - where does all this complex universe come from?

We use religion basics in our everyday lives. We "religiously" do certain activities all the time - eating, sleeping, going to the job, breathing. Religion that worships the God that is behind everything that exists, is certainly something noble.

Think long and hard before you decide to bypass religion. Some of that religion is about God, the Guy Who holds your life and existence in the palm of His hand. To see it, simply look at nature around you, and see how your existence fits into everything that exists.

Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 500
I like boobies
December 11, 2014, 08:01:40 PM
Check out the movie Zeitgeist. It tells all about how Christianity is a actually astrology - related cr**. People, don't be ridiculous, you have one life, live it freely, don't be mislead by religion, cause it's all just a joke. There, I rest my case.

That movie changed my life. Highly recommended.
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0
December 11, 2014, 07:54:43 PM
Check out the movie Zeitgeist. It tells all about how Christianity is a actually astrology - related cr**. People, don't be ridiculous, you have one life, live it freely, don't be mislead by religion, cause it's all just a joke. There, I rest my case.
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