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Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 363. (Read 845809 times)

legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 12, 2014, 04:11:46 AM
Check out the movie Zeitgeist. It tells all about how Christianity is a actually astrology - related cr**. People, don't be ridiculous, you have one life, live it freely, don't be mislead by religion, cause it's all just a joke. There, I rest my case.

Now we have 2 Gods? Astrology is crap. Any god it produces is crap.

The universe, nature around us, and life show us that there is something fantastically great behind everything that exists. If there weren't, researchers would have developed life extension so that we could all live to 1000 years old, long ago.

As it is, research is still just finding out some of the basics of life. And we certainly don't have the ability to travel the universe. We can barely get off our own planet. Since we don't have much of a handle on anything - like we don't even know how to will ourselves to grow back a finger when we lose one - where does all this complex universe come from?

We use religion basics in our everyday lives. We "religiously" do certain activities all the time - eating, sleeping, going to the job, breathing. Religion that worships the God that is behind everything that exists, is certainly something noble.

Think long and hard before you decide to bypass religion. Some of that religion is about God, the Guy Who holds your life and existence in the palm of His hand. To see it, simply look at nature around you, and see how your existence fits into everything that exists.

Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 500
I like boobies
December 11, 2014, 07:01:40 PM
Check out the movie Zeitgeist. It tells all about how Christianity is a actually astrology - related cr**. People, don't be ridiculous, you have one life, live it freely, don't be mislead by religion, cause it's all just a joke. There, I rest my case.

That movie changed my life. Highly recommended.
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0
December 11, 2014, 06:54:43 PM
Check out the movie Zeitgeist. It tells all about how Christianity is a actually astrology - related cr**. People, don't be ridiculous, you have one life, live it freely, don't be mislead by religion, cause it's all just a joke. There, I rest my case.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 500
I like boobies
December 11, 2014, 06:48:48 PM
My position is that God:Reality :: Man:Perceptions.  I believe it is accurate to say "man was created in God's image," and I think that we are all essentially gods...mini-gods.   I would venture so far as to say that, at the greatest possible scale, the interplay of consciousness and reality is God attempting to know himself and move towards self-actualization.

If you like reading, I would recommend to you a book called "Conversations with God, Book 1: An Uncommon Dialogue". I think perhaps you might enjoy it, since it is basically an affirmation of your beliefs. It was given to me by someone a few years after its release and I've since passed it on to someone else, but at that time in my life it resonated with me quite strongly. Cheers
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 11, 2014, 12:19:25 AM
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that god is not real...

There. I just made a counter argument just as valid as all of yours.

In simple form, your argument is valid.

In complex form, questioning where the complex things of the universe came from, the clearest answer is God, even though we don't have absolute proof for Him, and may never have it.

No, that's the simplest answer. But it is no more valid or true than answering that the universe came from a unicorn's butt. The reason is that there is absolutely no way to test and verify your claim, since as you said, there isnt even any conclusive proof that he even exists, and thus your "god did it" is nothing but your own personal opinion. And as everyone keeps telling you, until you actually provide proof, one that we can test and verify ourselves, all you're arguing about is your own unsubstantiated opinion.

You are correct there is no way to 'test' for God...in an empirical sense; there is no possible way that any amount of evidence could constitute proof of God.  But you are incorrect that there is no way to verify the claim.

We first have to start with the claim as a hypothetical.  This is permitted because we needn't argue for the claim itself, at least in a direct sense.

The claim, unsupported by any evidence, serves as a point of reference.  Having made the claim, we then need to create a theory that explains the entirety of reality at the height of generality, i.e. a theory whose explanatory power cannot logically be surpassed.  By definition, such a theory would provide insight into the most fundamental characteristics of reality. 

After first demonstrating that such a theory is sound, we look at those fundamental characteristics and hold them up to our initial claim.  If the results of the theory imply the claim, then we can conclude God exists, and at a 100% level of certainty (practically, it's irrelevant if people modify their original claim; identifying and knowing the absolute limit of rational explanation is the important part).
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
December 10, 2014, 09:55:25 PM
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that god is not real...

There. I just made a counter argument just as valid as all of yours.

In simple form, your argument is valid.

In complex form, questioning where the complex things of the universe came from, the clearest answer is God, even though we don't have absolute proof for Him, and may never have it.

No, that's the simplest answer. But it is no more valid or true than answering that the universe came from a unicorn's butt. The reason is that there is absolutely no way to test and verify your claim, since as you said, there isnt even any conclusive proof that he even exists, and thus your "god did it" is nothing but your own personal opinion. And as everyone keeps telling you, until you actually provide proof, one that we can test and verify ourselves, all you're arguing about is your own unsubstantiated opinion.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 07:49:59 PM
Okay. Thanks for saying. I don't agree with you. Have a nice day.

You called me a fool. You said my God was the devil.

Now you want me to have a nice day.

Are you sure?

You're not making much sense, BADecker. Tongue

Are you sure you are not another of Decksperiment's multiple personalities?

Smiley
This is my only account.

Careful what you say about God; he is not known to meet human expectations. Tongue

Okay. Thanks for saying. Have a nice day.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 07:44:41 PM
Okay. Thanks for saying. I don't agree with you. Have a nice day.

You called me a fool. You said my God was the devil.

Now you want me to have a nice day.

Are you sure?

You're not making much sense, BADecker. Tongue

Are you sure you are not another of Decksperiment's multiple personalities?

Smiley
This is my only account.

Careful what you say about God; he is not known to meet human expectations. Tongue
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 07:43:18 PM
Okay. Thanks for saying. I don't agree with you. Have a nice day.

You called me a fool. You said my God was the devil.

Now you want me to have a nice day.

Are you sure?

You're not making much sense, BADecker. Tongue

Are you sure you are not another of Decksperiment's multiple personalities?

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 07:40:03 PM
Okay. Thanks for saying. I don't agree with you. Have a nice day.

You called me a fool. You said my God was the devil.

Now you want me to have a nice day.

Are you sure?

You're not making much sense, BADecker. Tongue
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 07:38:05 PM
Okay. Thanks for saying. I don't agree with you. Have a nice day.

You called God the devil.

You called the WORD a heresy.

You called me a fool.

You have voted-in and out the true laws of Christ.

Okay. Thanks for saying. I'll take it under advisory, even though I don't agree. Have a nice day.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 07:28:00 PM
Okay. Thanks for saying. I don't agree with you. Have a nice day.

You called me a fool. You said my God was the devil.

Now you want me to have a nice day.

Are you sure?
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 07:07:51 PM
I have stated my points of view. You have stated yours.

Actually, what I was looking for in this thread was proof.

Proof is an argument backed up by points; you made eight points which I refuted; as a result, I showed you that God's WORD is at least as legitimate as what you promote.

You called my truth a heresy; however, God denies that the recorded truth (in the published WORD) is a heresy:

"I do not fit the role as to Christian heretic for I do, in fact, travel about with the Christ in total Godness and therefore I certainly do not deviate in any iota from the whole Truth of the doctrine of God"

This is the same God that you called "the devil". I think that you are wrong and have insulted your brother; you took this discussion way too far. I do not feel so bad myself though. Actually, in the WORD it says that I should not pay attention to critics and attackers, and should not get involved in doctrinal quarrels, so I honestly have no good reason for having this talk with you.

Smiley

Okay. Thanks for saying. I don't agree with you. Have a nice day.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 07:04:13 PM
I have stated my points of view. You have stated yours.

Actually, what I was looking for in this thread was proof.

Proof is an argument backed up by points; you made eight points which I refuted; as a result, I showed you that God's WORD is at least as legitimate as what you promote.

When I asked how you know that the Bible is superior, you said "I compare it with what the Bible says, and then I know."
You failed to quote the WORD in any way, so you did not really do as you say you did:

You called my truth a heresy; however, God denies that the recorded truth (in the published WORD) is a heresy:

"I do not fit the role as to Christian heretic for I do, in fact, travel about with the Christ in total Godness and therefore I certainly do not deviate in any iota from the whole Truth of the doctrine of God"

This is the same God that you called "the devil". I think that you are wrong and have insulted your brother; you took this discussion way too far. I do not feel so bad myself though. Actually, in the WORD it says that I should not pay attention to critics and attackers, and should not get involved in doctrinal quarrels, so I honestly have no good reason for having this talk with you.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 06:29:38 PM

If you can't conclude that
Quote
God can never be revealed in His entirety by the scientific method,
then you can't conclude that
Quote
He can be revealed in part by that method.

In other words, if you can't understand God in His entirety, then it's impossible to conclude that any "part" of God you might be witnessing is actually God.

Consequently, there is no amount of empirical evidence that can lead to a conclusion that God exists.

Why? (Of course, we are speaking of God, which makes things different than any example.) A crude example might be a car. We see the car, yet we see it only from one side at a time. A mechanic may know every last thing there is to know about an engine and transmission - even the metallurgy - yet he may know little or nothing about the fabrics that make up the upholstery, or the glass that makes up the windows.

Smiley

Because it's a limitation of inductive reasoning.

Your car analogy doesn't work.  The reason the car analogy doesn't work is because a car can fit within the entirety of our scope of observation, whereas a monotheistic god cannot.

We know what a car is.  A car is a product of human invention and imagination, and so we know what the definition of a car is.  Accordingly, any time we actually see a car (i.e. we observed/evidenced it), then we can relate that observation back to the definition of a car.  Because the observation matches our known definition of what a car is, we can conclude that we are observing a car.

This doesn't work with God.  If God exists, he cannot be the product of human invention and imagination.  Accordingly, unlike the car, we are unable to start with any presumptions about what God may be.  So, it doesn't matter what evidence you find because you'll never be able to relate your observations back to a known definition of God so as to be able to conclude that the evidence is actually a part of God.

Edit:  Do you realize that, in using your car analogy, you were attempting to use a method of inductive reasoning similar to what's practiced via the scientific method?  Science forms hypotheses (i.e presumptions) which are then tested by evidence.  If the evidence supports the presumption, then the hypothesis holds.  For example, evidence is held against the hypothesis/theory of evolution to test whether the available evidence supports it.  You are trying to do the same thing by making a God "hypothesis", so-to-speak, and then holding up evidence against that hypothesis to see if your hypothesis holds.  However, in the same way that evidence cannot lead to a conclusion that evolution is correct at a 100% level of confidence, evidence cannot lead to a conclusion that God exists at a 100% level of confidence.

Edit 2:  I think it's imperative you understand this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

Quote
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge understood in the classic philosophical sense,[1] since it focuses on the lack of justification for either:

Generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
Presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold). Hume called this the principle of uniformity of nature.[2]
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method and for that reason the philosopher C. D. Broad said that "induction is the glory of science and the scandal of philosophy." Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, as well as the Carvaka school of Indian philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later.

I totally am NOT against science or scientists. What I am against is scientists using some scientific evidence or proof to extrapolate all kinds of things that can easily be extrapolated in multitudes of ways and directions using the same or other scientific evidence or proof. And what gets me is when they try to tell us that they have found the whole thing when they have merely extrapolated in a single direction of many. (Sorry if I didn't say that very well. Please try to get the idea of what I am talking about, anyway.)

It seems evident that we exist, even though we don't really have enough scientific evidence or proof - by a long shot - to make a determination that we do. Same with God, especially that the evidence that we do have, would have been planted here by Him if He DOES exists. We have nothing that I have seen, in ideas or philosophy or science (could easily have missed it, however) that suggests where we and the universe might have come from, that has nearly the strength of the God idea.

Stand everything that all of us have talked about in this thread side by side, and see which of them makes the most sense. To me, it is the God idea. And I am not talking Christianity here. I am simply talking God in one of the more vague dictionary definitions of the word.

Smiley

I would agree with you that I, too, dislike when scientists or anyone else assert a conclusion with absolute certainty based upon empirical data.  Although, I think it's important to make a distinction between contexts in which the word 'prove' is acceptable in science vs. contexts in which it is not acceptable.  For example, while it is not acceptable to say that a scientific conclusion is proven beyond all doubt, it is acceptable to say that it is proven based upon the data that's available, and within a certain level of confidence (e.g. "The data supports the hypothesis, p < .05," indicating a 95% confidence level).  P < .05 is probably the most common standard used, although you'll see some studies which test hypotheses at other confidence levels (e.g p < .01, or a 99% confidence level).  The scientific method does not permit conclusions at a 100% confidence level.

Yes, it is self-evident that we exist, and you are correct that there is no conclusive, empirical evidence to support this.  Fortunately, we don't need any.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is the "same with God," as I wouldn't say that God is self-evident.  However, I would say that basically all of the ideas necessary to form a conclusion that God exists stem from that which is self-evident.

I would also agree that God seems the logical conclusion.

As a whole, this last post of yours seems much more reasonable than previous ones.



Thank you. I have deduced, if from nothing other than your adherence to the strict ideals regarding scientific investigation, and from the fact that you use two spaces between your sentences, that you are very experienced - from an old school.

You are probably correct in virtually all your debates with folks in here. It's just that we seem right sometimes, because we don't have your experience.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 06:24:03 PM
the Bible has the only way to be saved.
We don't know how you know.

BADecker, you never offer proof for your most important claims; from what I can tell, you offer arguments from authority. Someone has told you this, and you accepted it; I do not think that you personally know for a fact that the Bible has saved even a single soul, although I am willing to be proven wrong.

You are certainly welcome to not believe the things I say. You are certainly welcome to not examine what I say further. The depth of my knowledge of the truth of my own words is a balance between evidence, thinking and faith. If it were pure knowledge, it would not fall into the realm of what God requires. That realm includes as one of its most important prerequisites, faith.


Believing in Jesus for salvation.

Christ never said "I, Jesus, am God".

Most of the words that Jesus spoke in the Bible are in the first 4 books in the New Testament. You will find many places therein where Jesus says that He is God. He simply doesn't speak the same way we do most of the time. He constantly speaks in parables, even with His disciples... except when He explains things clearly to them on a few occasions.


Quote
Christ never said "I, Jesus, am the [only] way [to salvation]".

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me."


Quote

My purpose in writing in this thread was to answer the idea that we can't scientifically prove that God exists. Yet, we have way more evidence for the existence of God than we do for any other method or cause for the universe and life to have come about.

I have stated my points of view. You have stated yours. I am not against you believing the things you want. So, why are you so adamant about getting me to believe things the way you want? Am I causing you to doubt your ideals so much that you need to prove me wrong just to hang onto your faith? Or do you think that if you don't land me I will be the big fish that got away? What is your reason?

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 10, 2014, 06:13:47 PM

If you can't conclude that
Quote
God can never be revealed in His entirety by the scientific method,
then you can't conclude that
Quote
He can be revealed in part by that method.

In other words, if you can't understand God in His entirety, then it's impossible to conclude that any "part" of God you might be witnessing is actually God.

Consequently, there is no amount of empirical evidence that can lead to a conclusion that God exists.

Why? (Of course, we are speaking of God, which makes things different than any example.) A crude example might be a car. We see the car, yet we see it only from one side at a time. A mechanic may know every last thing there is to know about an engine and transmission - even the metallurgy - yet he may know little or nothing about the fabrics that make up the upholstery, or the glass that makes up the windows.

Smiley

Because it's a limitation of inductive reasoning.

Your car analogy doesn't work.  The reason the car analogy doesn't work is because a car can fit within the entirety of our scope of observation, whereas a monotheistic god cannot.

We know what a car is.  A car is a product of human invention and imagination, and so we know what the definition of a car is.  Accordingly, any time we actually see a car (i.e. we observed/evidenced it), then we can relate that observation back to the definition of a car.  Because the observation matches our known definition of what a car is, we can conclude that we are observing a car.

This doesn't work with God.  If God exists, he cannot be the product of human invention and imagination.  Accordingly, unlike the car, we are unable to start with any presumptions about what God may be.  So, it doesn't matter what evidence you find because you'll never be able to relate your observations back to a known definition of God so as to be able to conclude that the evidence is actually a part of God.

Edit:  Do you realize that, in using your car analogy, you were attempting to use a method of inductive reasoning similar to what's practiced via the scientific method?  Science forms hypotheses (i.e presumptions) which are then tested by evidence.  If the evidence supports the presumption, then the hypothesis holds.  For example, evidence is held against the hypothesis/theory of evolution to test whether the available evidence supports it.  You are trying to do the same thing by making a God "hypothesis", so-to-speak, and then holding up evidence against that hypothesis to see if your hypothesis holds.  However, in the same way that evidence cannot lead to a conclusion that evolution is correct at a 100% level of confidence, evidence cannot lead to a conclusion that God exists at a 100% level of confidence.

Edit 2:  I think it's imperative you understand this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

Quote
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge understood in the classic philosophical sense,[1] since it focuses on the lack of justification for either:

Generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
Presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold). Hume called this the principle of uniformity of nature.[2]
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method and for that reason the philosopher C. D. Broad said that "induction is the glory of science and the scandal of philosophy." Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, as well as the Carvaka school of Indian philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later.

I totally am NOT against science or scientists. What I am against is scientists using some scientific evidence or proof to extrapolate all kinds of things that can easily be extrapolated in multitudes of ways and directions using the same or other scientific evidence or proof. And what gets me is when they try to tell us that they have found the whole thing when they have merely extrapolated in a single direction of many. (Sorry if I didn't say that very well. Please try to get the idea of what I am talking about, anyway.)

It seems evident that we exist, even though we don't really have enough scientific evidence or proof - by a long shot - to make a determination that we do. Same with God, especially that the evidence that we do have, would have been planted here by Him if He DOES exists. We have nothing that I have seen, in ideas or philosophy or science (could easily have missed it, however) that suggests where we and the universe might have come from, that has nearly the strength of the God idea.

Stand everything that all of us have talked about in this thread side by side, and see which of them makes the most sense. To me, it is the God idea. And I am not talking Christianity here. I am simply talking God in one of the more vague dictionary definitions of the word.

Smiley

I would agree with you that I, too, dislike when scientists or anyone else assert a conclusion with absolute certainty based upon empirical data.  Although, I think it's important to make a distinction between contexts in which the word 'prove' is acceptable in science vs. contexts in which it is not acceptable.  For example, while it is not acceptable to say that a scientific conclusion is proven beyond all doubt, it is acceptable to say that it is proven based upon the data that's available, and within a certain level of confidence (e.g. "The data supports the hypothesis, p < .05," indicating a 95% confidence level).  P < .05 is probably the most common standard used, although you'll see some studies which test hypotheses at other confidence levels (e.g p < .01, or a 99% confidence level).  The scientific method does not permit conclusions at a 100% confidence level.

Yes, it is self-evident that we exist, and you are correct that there is no conclusive, empirical evidence to support this.  Fortunately, we don't need any.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is the "same with God," as I wouldn't say that God is self-evident.  However, I would say that basically all of the ideas necessary to form a conclusion that God exists stem from that which is self-evident.

I would also agree that God seems the logical conclusion.

As a whole, this last post of yours seems much more reasonable than previous ones.

legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 05:48:41 PM

If you can't conclude that
Quote
God can never be revealed in His entirety by the scientific method,
then you can't conclude that
Quote
He can be revealed in part by that method.

In other words, if you can't understand God in His entirety, then it's impossible to conclude that any "part" of God you might be witnessing is actually God.

Consequently, there is no amount of empirical evidence that can lead to a conclusion that God exists.

Why? (Of course, we are speaking of God, which makes things different than any example.) A crude example might be a car. We see the car, yet we see it only from one side at a time. A mechanic may know every last thing there is to know about an engine and transmission - even the metallurgy - yet he may know little or nothing about the fabrics that make up the upholstery, or the glass that makes up the windows.

Smiley

Because it's a limitation of inductive reasoning.

Your car analogy doesn't work.  The reason the car analogy doesn't work is because a car can fit within the entirety of our scope of observation, whereas a monotheistic god cannot.

We know what a car is.  A car is a product of human invention and imagination, and so we know what the definition of a car is.  Accordingly, any time we actually see a car (i.e. we observed/evidenced it), then we can relate that observation back to the definition of a car.  Because the observation matches our known definition of what a car is, we can conclude that we are observing a car.

This doesn't work with God.  If God exists, he cannot be the product of human invention and imagination.  Accordingly, unlike the car, we are unable to start with any presumptions about what God may be.  So, it doesn't matter what evidence you find because you'll never be able to relate your observations back to a known definition of God so as to be able to conclude that the evidence is actually a part of God.

Edit:  Do you realize that, in using your car analogy, you were attempting to use a method of inductive reasoning similar to what's practiced via the scientific method?  Science forms hypotheses (i.e presumptions) which are then tested by evidence.  If the evidence supports the presumption, then the hypothesis holds.  For example, evidence is held against the hypothesis/theory of evolution to test whether the available evidence supports it.  You are trying to do the same thing by making a God "hypothesis", so-to-speak, and then holding up evidence against that hypothesis to see if your hypothesis holds.  However, in the same way that evidence cannot lead to a conclusion that evolution is correct at a 100% level of confidence, evidence cannot lead to a conclusion that God exists at a 100% level of confidence.

Edit 2:  I think it's imperative you understand this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

Quote
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge understood in the classic philosophical sense,[1] since it focuses on the lack of justification for either:

Generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
Presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold). Hume called this the principle of uniformity of nature.[2]
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method and for that reason the philosopher C. D. Broad said that "induction is the glory of science and the scandal of philosophy." Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, as well as the Carvaka school of Indian philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later.

I totally am NOT against science or scientists. What I am against is scientists using some scientific evidence or proof to extrapolate all kinds of things that can easily be extrapolated in multitudes of ways and directions using the same or other scientific evidence or proof. And what gets me is when they try to tell us that they have found the whole thing when they have merely extrapolated in a single direction of many. (Sorry if I didn't say that very well. Please try to get the idea of what I am talking about, anyway.)

It seems evident that we exist, even though we don't really have enough scientific evidence or proof - by a long shot - to make a determination that we do. Same with God, especially that the evidence that we do have, would have been planted here by Him if He DOES exists. We have nothing that I have seen, in ideas or philosophy or science (could easily have missed it, however) that suggests where we and the universe might have come from, that has nearly the strength of the God idea.

Stand everything that all of us have talked about in this thread side by side, and see which of them makes the most sense. To me, it is the God idea. And I am not talking Christianity here. I am simply talking God in one of the more vague dictionary definitions of the word.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 05:47:32 PM
the Bible has the only way to be saved.
We don't know how you know.

BADecker, you never offer proof for your most important claims; from what I can tell, you offer arguments from authority. Someone has told you this, and you accepted it; I do not think that you personally know for a fact that the Bible has saved even a single soul, although I am willing to be proven wrong.

You refuse to acknowledge what the WORD of God has to say on the subject. It seems like you prefer to read what MAN SAID that God said, and you accept MAN'S authority as proof that "the Bible is right".

Actually, it is not the Bible which is important, but the teachings of Christ, who said that God's Law is written on your heart (you won't find it on a cross or anywhere else).

Believing in Jesus for salvation.

Christ never said "I, Jesus, am God".
Christ never said "I, Jesus, am the [only] way [to salvation]".

If you want to understand "I and my Father are One", there is a lengthy discussion of this topic in God's WORD; elsewhere, you can find the phrase "I am the way..." explained.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 05:30:33 PM
So, what are you trying to do, my non-brother? Make me feel guilty?

I want you to have some responsibility for your behavior.

As far as I know, our beliefs are NOT in conflict.

What is different is that you believe in a savior who will take away your responsibility. However, Matt 5:22 clearly states that you will be held responsible (to an extreme) if you call a believer a fool.

You have called me a fool. But I still do not know why your Bible is right and the WORD is wrong, and how you can prove this without quoting from the WORD (i.e. doing a comparison).

I never wanted it to be like this; in fact, I only read Matt 5:22 today.

If you are truly attempting to benefit me in some way, I thank you.

As far as I know, our beliefs are in conflict.

Yes and no to the idea of removal of responsibility. Yes in the big way, because God demands perfection, and we have none of that... at least not in this life without the help of God, and then only once in a while. No in the way that if we do not adhere to some extent to the teaching of Jesus, we express that we don't have faith.

I had thought I had called your foolishness foolishness, not you a fool. If you don't have even an ounce or millimeter of foolishness at least once in a while, then I was wrong.

The Bible is right because of this https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9783228. The Bible excludes writings following the Revelation because of this https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.9798641.

Smiley
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