Scientific proof that God exists? - page 367.

bl4kjaguar

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Quote from: darkota on December 08, 2014, 04:08:33 PM

This whole concept of "choice" is limited only to our day to day actions

Your choices are limited by your identity.

A negative or weak individuality commonly gets only what others decide to give,
but a firm, strong, positive, well-developed individuality, in reality
controls the ship of their life and destiny,
and eventually will gain possession of what they want.

This discussion of mine with BADecker is about the content-source problem.

My point is that it is far too easy to ignore inspired writings
and to fail to think critically about them
by choice.

darkota

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Quote from: bl4kjaguar on December 08, 2014, 01:04:17 PM

Quote from: BADecker on December 06, 2014, 04:37:12 PM

Any application of truth, fraud, invalidity, etc., that you apply to the Bible can be applied just as easy to whatever you are talking about. Proof of falseness? Same KIND of proof that you would use.

Prove that the things that are written by your sources are not written by people. However, if an AI wrote them, the AI was originally programmed by people. Or, prove that this is not so.

It cannot be proven that any given Scripture is divinely inspired. Mankind always has a choice.

It can only be assumed from a preponderance of the evidence and by providing an answer to the content-source problem that a certain book is inspired.

Check out these links from early in the thread:

http://www.rivier.edu/faculty/pcunningham/Publications/CunninghamJP_Fall-2012-Vol-76-(2)-295-319.pdf
http://www.rivier.edu/faculty/pcunningham/Research/Problem_of_Seths_Origin.pdf

The problem with all your logic, is that Humans do not always have a choice on the things the bible talks about. Some people are born with the attraction to the same sex, do they have a choice? No. Some people are born with all sorts of diseases and deformities, do they have a choice? There are even people born without the ability to feel empathy, do they have a choice? No, and etc. It's all neurological, and has nothing to do with "god". If you didn't know, chemicals throughout your body and brain determine how happy, depressed, anxious, you are and etc. Take out the chemical Oxycontin from your brain for example, and you'll enter into a depressed state since that chemical is responsible for feelings of happiness and love.

This whole concept of "choice" is limited only to our day to day actions, if your god really existed, then we should all be entirely equal, so our journey to the choice of (right) or (wrong) would be fair. How can you expect someone born with a large, unfair, disadvantage like a inherited disorder, disease, deformity, hugely negative environmental situations, to possibly have as equal a choice as someone who was born with all their needs and wants met?

As I type, there are high hundred of millions to billions of people around this earth who are poverty stricken, diseased; millions of women and children held captive in the sex slave industry, millions of abused wives and women raped, a plethora of murders and hate crimes, and much much more, and then there are the few that have all they could ever want and more... Are you happy with the work of your god?

Please...while it's as they say, impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God, I'd say the arrow is leaning heavily on the, " God does not exist" side.

(oYo)

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Quote from: the joint on December 08, 2014, 10:23:01 AM

Quote from: (oYo) on December 07, 2014, 09:03:24 PM

Quote from: the joint on December 07, 2014, 07:49:21 PM

(let's assume Christian god = absolute truth, for the sake of argument)

How can an absolute lie be an absolute truth? The truth is, Emperor Constantine the Great created the Bible (ie. the christian god) as an instrument to regain control of his empire.

So, for the sake of argument, if the christian god = absolute truth, then War = Peace, Freedom = Slavery, Ignorance = Strength.

Please reread the post.

I'm invoking the assumption because the posters who I am referencing are speaking from that assumption.

Let me guess, you're an atheist and you saw that statement in my post and didn't care to read the rest of the post for context, right? If you had, you'd see the very point of my post was to illustrate that at least one, and possibly all, posters here have faulty presumptions of what absolute truth is, and therefore they cannot all be correct.

No, I read your whole post and understood what was in parentheses as being a statement independent of context, since in one of your conclusions you again stated absolute truth as being synonymous with christian god.

Quote from: the joint on December 07, 2014, 07:49:21 PM

Conclusion 2: Therefore, at least one (possibly all) of these posters believes in something that is not absolute truth/Christian god.

BTW, I am not an atheist, but an anti-theist. Basically, I hope there is no omnipotent god, because if there really is one I believe it to be a malevolent asshole.

@BADecker, Just to clarify, I know Constantine didn't create the bible with his own hands, but by his will.

bl4kjaguar

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Quote from: bl4kjaguar on December 06, 2014, 03:50:52 PM

Any proof of that, BADecker? Proof that the Bible is the WORD?

When will you expose my truth as a fraud or a joke?

I have already told you that the Bible has nothing to do with God; it was written by men.

Stop condemning your brother for no reason, BADecker.

You only condemn me because you obsess over your book and you do not know any better.

God will forgive ignorance, but you must stop attacking your brother.

I will respond to your points 1-8:
1. For a number of reasons, the Bible's message is not as clear as God's WORD.
2. The Bible does not tell us how to create manna, and it does not tell us which foods are particularly good for humans, unlike God's WORD.
3. God's WORD is spoken by God and recorded by God's scribe. Bible is written and re-written by men.
4. As you read in "Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered", not only did the Qumrun community have a metallurgical foundry in the center of the city, you also find out that the Teacher of Righteousness, this thing that they were totally preoccupied with, wasn't Moses or Christ. It says the high priest SWALLOWED the Teacher of Righteousness. How can the Bible or its adherents explain what is going on here when they do not even know what manna is? Are the Scrolls really pointing to a static teaching preserved through the ages as you allege? Hard to know without explaining the above.
5. Traditions are often corrupted. Are you going to do your own thinking or listen to the "traditional authorities"? Someone has spiritual authority over YOU?
6. Essentially the same argument is used to explain the historical existence of Krishna. By your logic, Krishna was real and the Bhagavad Gita is accurate. Krishna- History or Myth
7. The fact that there are so many discrepancies between ancient texts (more discrepancies than words in the NT in fact) shows that the text is subject to change.
8. How exactly will you find the whole truth in mainstream books like the Bible? Most of that book is written by a Pharisee. Don't forget that SATAN is ruler of this world, and obviously his message has spread far and wide.

bl4kjaguar

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Quote from: Cortex7 on December 05, 2014, 04:03:13 PM

A domesticated animal is still operating within evolution, be it a domesticated cat or ape (human).

That does not help to explain the gaps. Such an explanation ("evolution did it") fails to address the anomalies with a plausible explanation. Pye's article has some anomalies, and here are some more; a challenge for you:

http://www.us.net/life/

Coincoin256

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Checkmate atheists. Take off your fedoras in defeat.

bl4kjaguar

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Quote from: Cortex7 on December 06, 2014, 04:34:37 PM

Read that post and argue against it...

Where in that post did you even once mention plant evolution or human evolution? And what about the AECES Top 40?

It is very convenient to ignore certain information.

bl4kjaguar

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Quote from: BADecker on December 06, 2014, 04:37:12 PM

Any application of truth, fraud, invalidity, etc., that you apply to the Bible can be applied just as easy to whatever you are talking about. Proof of falseness? Same KIND of proof that you would use.

Prove that the things that are written by your sources are not written by people. However, if an AI wrote them, the AI was originally programmed by people. Or, prove that this is not so.

It cannot be proven that any given Scripture is divinely inspired.

It can only be assumed from a preponderance of the evidence and by providing an answer to the content-source problem that a certain book is inspired.

Check out these links from early in the thread:

http://www.rivier.edu/faculty/pcunningham/Publications/CunninghamJP_Fall-2012-Vol-76-(2)-295-319.pdf
http://www.rivier.edu/faculty/pcunningham/Research/Problem_of_Seths_Origin.pdf

BADecker

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Quote from: the joint on December 07, 2014, 07:49:21 PM

Premise 1: There must be only one absolute truth which provides reason for -- i.e. it explains -- everything (tautological).

Yes, but. When you consider the size of the universe (assuming that existence is more than a mere mental aberration of some kind), and that the whole thing from max to min fits together and works quite well, and that it all works by cause and effect, who is there that might have any clue as to what the REAL truth is?

Quote

Premise 2: There must be only one absolutely correct reason/explanation of that truth (axiom, i.e. absolute truth = absolute truth).

Usually explanations of things, if comprehensive, tend to be larger than the things themselves. This makes the truth to be its own explanation.

Quote

Premise 3: There are two or more people in this post who state belief in the Christian god (let's assume Christian god = absolute truth, for the sake of argument), but for different reasons/explanations.

Do you mean your post here? Or did you mean "thread" but only said "post?"

Quote

Conclusion 1: Therefore, the reasons/explanations provided by at least one (possibly all) of these posters is incorrect.

All. But even if it were correct, it would be incomplete.

Quote

Conclusion 2: Therefore, at least one (possibly all) of these posters believes in something that is not absolute truth/Christian god.

Was Jesus blonde, brunette, or redhead? When the Holy Spirit talks to the heart of a person and works salvation in him, the color of Jesus' hair doesn't matter, and probably isn't revealed. The Revelation in the Bible says that His hair is "white like wool." Yet, it may not have been that color when He walked the earth.

Salvation of certain people among the masses of mankind is a thing worked by the TRUTH, not a thing worked by mankind's knowing of the whole TRUTH, which is impossible... at least in this life.

the joint

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Quote from: (oYo) on December 07, 2014, 09:03:24 PM

Quote from: the joint on December 07, 2014, 07:49:21 PM

(let's assume Christian god = absolute truth, for the sake of argument)

How can an absolute lie be an absolute truth? The truth is, Emperor Constantine the Great created the Bible (ie. the christian god) as an instrument to regain control of his empire.

So, for the sake of argument, if the christian god = absolute truth, then War = Peace, Freedom = Slavery, Ignorance = Strength.

Please reread the post.

I'm invoking the assumption because the posters who I am referencing are speaking from that assumption.

Let me guess, you're an atheist and you saw that statement in my post and didn't care to read the rest of the post for context, right? If you had, you'd see the very point of my post was to illustrate that at least one, and possibly all, posters here have faulty presumptions of what absolute truth is, and therefore they cannot all be correct.

BADecker

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Quote from: Snail2 on December 08, 2014, 04:19:18 AM

This morning I've got an evidence of the existence of God from Cisco TAC. After a controlled power outage, one of our ASAs was unable to startup because of a flash error. When we asked for a replacement unit according to our support agreement, Cisco support said they will not replace the unit as this error was Act of God.
So God actually exist, he looks like a Indian bloke in his late thirties, his name is Mr Singh, living in England and working as an electrician. I've seen him with my own eyes (and I wasn't intoxicated) and still here. Good start for this week

.

BTW God likes spicy hot somosas. This is something good to know is you have to negotiate something with him:).

I think you guys can close this topic now. Cisco TAC used to be right.

LOL !

That's a good one. God exists. You can tell by all the insurance companies, etc., that have "... an Act of God ..." listed in their contracts.

All these insurance companies can't be wrong, can they?

Cheesy

Snail2

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This morning I've got an evidence of the existence of God from Cisco TAC. After a controlled power outage, one of our ASAs was unable to startup because of a flash error. When we asked for a replacement unit according to our support agreement, Cisco support said they will not replace the unit as this error was Act of God.
So God actually exist, he looks like a Indian bloke in his late thirties, his name is Mr Singh, living in England and working as an electrician. I've seen him with my own eyes (and I wasn't intoxicated) and still here. Good start for this week

.

BTW God likes spicy hot somosas. This is something good to know is you have to negotiate something with him:).

I think you guys can close this topic now. Cisco TAC used to be right.

BADecker

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Quote from: (oYo) on December 07, 2014, 09:03:24 PM

Quote from: the joint on December 07, 2014, 07:49:21 PM

(let's assume Christian god = absolute truth, for the sake of argument)

How can an absolute lie be an absolute truth? The truth is, Emperor Constantine the Great created the Bible (ie. the christian god) as an instrument to regain control of his empire.

So, for the sake of argument, if the christian god = absolute truth, then War = Peace, Freedom = Slavery, Ignorance = Strength.

[image]

Constantine did not create the Bible. Rather, he surrounded himself with scholars who knew the Hebrew canon, and the writings of the early Christian church as well. The scholars produced the Bible by using the Hebrew canon to filter out some early church writings. Because of this, we may possibly not have all the Christian writings that could be included in the Bible. The scholars, in their zeal to keep only the true writings, might have accidentally eliminated some writings that were borderline true, yet were true.

Constantine? Who really knows what is in the heart of another? Personally, I think that he believed Christianity, but held to other beliefs as well. At different times in his life, he may have been stronger in the faith than at other times. I hope he hadn't lost faith by the end of his life.

Did he use Christianity and the church to strengthen his political position? Certainly true! But why not? What better way to make a strong government than to base it on Christianity?

The Roman Catholic Church of today is barely Christian. True, they hold to the Bible. But they claim all kinds of things spoken by the Popes as well. And who knows what else they have as their beliefs along with the Bible?

Individual Catholic churches at different places in the world may seem almost the same as Protestant churches at times. At other times they are very different than Protestant. The Papacy almost doesn't care, as long as the particular parish or diocese supports the Papacy through gifts, and by acquiesing authority to the Pope/Papacy.

(oYo)

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Quote from: the joint on December 07, 2014, 07:49:21 PM

(let's assume Christian god = absolute truth, for the sake of argument)

How can an absolute lie be an absolute truth? The truth is, Emperor Constantine the Great created the Bible (ie. the christian god) as an instrument to regain control of his empire.

So, for the sake of argument, if the christian god = absolute truth, then War = Peace, Freedom = Slavery, Ignorance = Strength.

the joint

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Premise 1: There must be only one absolute truth which provides reason for -- i.e. it explains -- everything (tautological).
Premise 2: There must be only one absolutely correct reason/explanation of that truth (axiom, i.e. absolute truth = absolute truth).
Premise 3: There are two or more people in this post who state belief in the Christian god (let's assume Christian god = absolute truth, for the sake of argument), but for different reasons/explanations.

Conclusion 1: Therefore, the reasons/explanations provided by at least one (possibly all) of these posters is incorrect.
Conclusion 2: Therefore, at least one (possibly all) of these posters believes in something that is not absolute truth/Christian god.

BADecker

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Quote from: TheTribesman on December 07, 2014, 01:33:37 PM

Quote from: TheTribesman on December 07, 2014, 01:30:52 PM

Quote from: BADecker on December 07, 2014, 11:06:03 AM

Quote from: TheTribesman on December 07, 2014, 10:04:47 AM

Are you actually a scotsman? I am actually a scot. I was born in Glasgow. Are you a true scot like me, or a faker?

Why don't true Scotsmen capitalize "scotsman" or "scot?"

LOL. No idea!

Got it. I think it's because Scotland is the country and can be capitalized, but scotsmen are just the inhabitants.

I think it is because Scottish people hold onto strong tradition, often though they don't know why.

American law comes from and was born out of UK law, which was born out of all kinds of other law back to the Romans.

Capitalization of a personal name takes legal strength away from a person. It turns him into a lesser, or fictional-ish man. Scots are traditionally hanging onto the understanding of this even though government is trying to weed it out of peoples' thinking. Scots always were a legally practical people.

Consider this from http://www.broadmind.org/:

Quote

CAPITALIZE: adj.: Gage Canadian Dictionary 1983 § 4

1. "To take advantage of - To use to ones own advantage."

john doe: a person who is his own master, (sui juris)

Blacks Law Dictionary 4TH ed. (1968) pg. (provides a more comprehensive definition as follows)

CAPITIS DIMINUTIO: (meaning the diminishing of status through the use of capitalization) In Roman law.

A diminishing or abridgment of personality; a loss or curtailment of a man's status or aggregate of legal attributes and qualifications.

CAPITIS DIMINUTIO MINIMA (meaning a minimum loss of status through the use of capitalization, e.g. John Doe) - The lowest or least comprehensive degree of loss of status.

This occurred where a man's family relations alone were changed.

It happened upon the arrogation [pride] of a person who had been his own master, (sui juris,) [of his own right, not under any legal disability] or upon the emancipation of one who had been under the patria potestas.

[Parental authority] It left the rights of liberty and citizenship unaltered.

See: Inst. 1, 16, pr.; 1, 2, 3; Dig. 4, 5, 11; Mackeld.

Rom.Law, 144.

CAPITIS DIMINUTIO MEDIA (meaning a medium loss of status through the use of capitalization, e.g. John DOE) - A lessor or medium loss of status.

This occurred where a man loses his rights of citizenship, but without losing his liberty.

It carried away also the family rights.

CAPITIS DIMINUTIO MAXIMA (meaning a maximum loss of status through the use of capitalization, e.g. JOHN DOE or DOE JOHN) - The highest or most comprehensive loss of status.

This occurred when a man's condition was changed from one of freedom to one of bondage, when he became a slave.

It swept away with it all rights of citizenship and all family rights.

CAPITAL CRIME: The term capital originates from the Latin capitalis, literally "regarding the head".
Hence a capital crime was originally one punished by severing the head from the body.

Capital punishment, the death penalty, or execution is the sentence of death upon a person by the state as a punishment for an offense. Crimes that can result in a death penalty are known as capital crimes or capital offenses.

The simple use of the pronoun "I" can be a great example. The lower case form ( i ) is a man with his head. Capitalizing the "I" shows the man after he has lost his head. Take a look at them together - i I.

Scots aren't as backwards as some people might think. And actually, in many things, it's the other way around even though most people, including most Scots, don't know the whys and the wherefores.

TheTribesman

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Quote from: TheTribesman on December 07, 2014, 01:30:52 PM

Quote from: BADecker on December 07, 2014, 11:06:03 AM

Quote from: TheTribesman on December 07, 2014, 10:04:47 AM

Are you actually a scotsman? I am actually a scot. I was born in Glasgow. Are you a true scot like me, or a faker?

Why don't true Scotsmen capitalize "scotsman" or "scot?"

LOL. No idea!

Got it. I think it's because Scotland is the country and can be capitalized, but scotsmen are just the inhabitants.

TheTribesman

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Kobocoin - Mobile Money for Africa

Quote from: BADecker on December 07, 2014, 11:06:03 AM

Quote from: TheTribesman on December 07, 2014, 10:04:47 AM

Are you actually a scotsman? I am actually a scot. I was born in Glasgow. Are you a true scot like me, or a faker?

Why don't true Scotsmen capitalize "scotsman" or "scot?"

LOL. No idea!

Cortex7

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@Decksperiment

Bravo! You seem to have quite the flair for gay porn. No doubt you mastered the art from solid experience. Perhaps you could earn some satoshis in this field? Best of luck to you you haggis brained kestrel super strength fueled peg toothed balding buffoon.

BADecker

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Quote from: TheTribesman on December 07, 2014, 10:04:47 AM

Are you actually a scotsman? I am actually a scot. I was born in Glasgow. Are you a true scot like me, or a faker?

Why don't true Scotsmen capitalize "scotsman" or "scot?"

Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 367. (Read 845809 times)