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Topic: Scientific proof that God exists? - page 364. (Read 845809 times)

legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 05:14:33 PM
“By the sky which RETURNS.” (Quran 86:11)

“[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling…” (Quran 2:22)

In the first verse God swears by the sky[1]  and its function of ‘returning’ without specifying what it ‘returns.’  In Islamic doctrine, a divine oath signifies the magnitude of importance of a special relation to the Creator, and manifests His majesty and the supreme Truth in a special way.

The second verse describes the Divine Act that made the sky a ‘ceiling’ for the dwellers of earth.

Let us see what modern atmospheric science has to say about the role and function of the sky.

The atmosphere is a word which denotes all the air surrounding the earth, from the ground all the way up to the edge from which space starts.  The atmosphere is composed of several layers, each defined because of the various phenomena which occur within the layer.

Rain, for one, is ‘returned’ to Earth by THE CLOUDS in the atmosphere.  Explaining the hydrologic cycle, Encyclopedia Britannica writes:

“Water evaporates from both the aquatic and terrestrial environments as it is heated by the Sun’s energy.  The rates of evaporation and precipitation depend on solar energy, as do the PATTERNS of circulation of moisture in the air and currents in the ocean.  Evaporation exceeds precipitation over the oceans, and this water vapor is transported by the wind over land, where it returns to the land through precipitation.”

Not only does the atmosphere return what was on the surface back to the surface, but it reflects back into space that which might damage the flora and fauna the earth sustains, such as excessive RADIANT HEAT.  In the 1990’s, collaborations between NASA, the European Space Agency (ESA), and the Institute of Space and Astronautical Science (ISAS) of Japan resulted in the International Solar-Terrestrial Physics (ISTP) Science Initiative.  Polar, Wind and Geotail are a part of this initiative, combining resources and scientific communities to obtain coordinated, simultaneous investigations of the Sun-Earth space environment over an extended period of time.  They have an excellent explanation of how the atmosphere returns solar heat to space.

Besides ‘returning’ rain, heat and radio waves, the atmosphere protects us like a ceiling above our heads by filtering out deadly cosmic rays, powerful ultraviolet (UV) radiation from the Sun, and even meteorites on collision COURSE with Earth.

Pennsylvania State PUBLIC Broadcasting tells us:

“The sunlight that we can see represents one group of wavelengths, visible light.  Other wavelengths emitted by the sun include x-rays and ultraviolet radiation.  X-rays and some ultraviolet light waves are absorbed high in Earth’s atmosphere.  They heat the thin layer of gas there to very high temperatures.  Ultraviolet light waves are the rays that can cause sunburn.  Most ultraviolet light waves are absorbed by a thicker layer of gas closer to Earth called the ozone layer.  By soaking up the deadly ultraviolet and x-rays, the atmosphere acts as a protective shield around the planet.  Like a giant thermal blanket, the atmosphere also keeps temperatures from getting too hot or too cold.  In addition, the atmosphere also protects us from constant bombardment by meteoroids, bits of rock and dust that travel at HIGH SPEEDS throughout the solar system.  The falling stars we see at night are not stars at all; they are actually meteoroids burning up in our atmosphere due to the extreme heating they undergo.”

Encyclopedia Britannica, describing the role of Stratosphere, tells us about its PROTECTIVE role in absorbing dangerous ultraviolet radiation:

“In the upper stratospheric regions, absorption of ultraviolet light from the Sun breaks down oxygen molecules; recombination of oxygen atoms with O2 molecules into ozone (O3) creates the ozone layer, which shields the lower ecosphere from harmful short-wavelength radiation…More disturbing, however, is the discovery of a growing depletion of ozone over temperate latitudes, where a large percentage of the world’s population resides, since the ozone layer serves as a shield against ultraviolet radiation, which has been found to cause skin CANCER.”

The mesosphere is the layer in which many meteors burn up while entering the Earth’s atmosphere.  Imagine a BASEBALL zipping along at 30,000 miles per hour.  That’s how big and fast many meteors are.  When they plow through the atmosphere, meteors are heated to more than 3000 DEGREESFahrenheit, and they glow.  A meteor compresses air in front of it.  The air heats up, in turn heating the meteor.
 
Earth is surrounded by a magnetic force field - a bubble in space called “the magnetosphere” tens of thousands of miles wide.  The magnetosphere acts as a shield that protects us from solar storms.  However, according to new observations from NASA’s IMAGE spacecraft and the joint NASA/European Space Agency Cluster SATELLITES, immense cracks sometimes develop in Earth’s magnetosphere and remain open for hours.  This allows the solar wind to gush through and power stormy space weather.  Fortunately, these cracks do not expose Earth’s surface to the solar wind.  Our atmosphere protects us, even when our magnetic field does not.


How would it be possible for a fourteenth century desert dweller to describe the sky in a manner so precise that only recent scientific discoveries have CONFIRMED it?  The only way is if he received revelation from the Creator of the sky.

Knowledge abounds. A smart person might know a lot of it. Ancient maps show Antarctica without a covering of ice. Yet, nobody knows how people could have drawn such maps at a time when there was barely a knowledge that the earth was roundish. The point? We don't know how they knew.

Despite whatever is in the various religious books, the Bible has the only way to be saved. We will die. There will be a resurrection and judgment. "Saved" has to do with where we will spend eternity. Even the Bible is not 100% clear about the things that will exist in the life hereafter. But it is clear about the only way there. Believing in Jesus for salvation.

The Book of Mormon has quotes from the Bible in it. They might be enough to save some, because they are Bible Jesus. Islam has none of these salvation quotes.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
December 10, 2014, 04:09:30 PM

If you can't conclude that
Quote
God can never be revealed in His entirety by the scientific method,
then you can't conclude that
Quote
He can be revealed in part by that method.

In other words, if you can't understand God in His entirety, then it's impossible to conclude that any "part" of God you might be witnessing is actually God.

Consequently, there is no amount of empirical evidence that can lead to a conclusion that God exists.

Why? (Of course, we are speaking of God, which makes things different than any example.) A crude example might be a car. We see the car, yet we see it only from one side at a time. A mechanic may know every last thing there is to know about an engine and transmission - even the metallurgy - yet he may know little or nothing about the fabrics that make up the upholstery, or the glass that makes up the windows.

Smiley

Because it's a limitation of inductive reasoning.

Your car analogy doesn't work.  The reason the car analogy doesn't work is because a car can fit within the entirety of our scope of observation, whereas a monotheistic god cannot.

We know what a car is.  A car is a product of human invention and imagination, and so we know what the definition of a car is.  Accordingly, any time we actually see a car (i.e. we observed/evidenced it), then we can relate that observation back to the definition of a car.  Because the observation matches our known definition of what a car is, we can conclude that we are observing a car.

This doesn't work with God.  If God exists, he cannot be the product of human invention and imagination.  Accordingly, unlike the car, we are unable to start with any presumptions about what God may be.  So, it doesn't matter what evidence you find because you'll never be able to relate your observations back to a known definition of God so as to be able to conclude that the evidence is actually a part of God.

Edit:  Do you realize that, in using your car analogy, you were attempting to use a method of inductive reasoning similar to what's practiced via the scientific method?  Science forms hypotheses (i.e presumptions) which are then tested by evidence.  If the evidence supports the presumption, then the hypothesis holds.  For example, evidence is held against the hypothesis/theory of evolution to test whether the available evidence supports it.  You are trying to do the same thing by making a God "hypothesis", so-to-speak, and then holding up evidence against that hypothesis to see if your hypothesis holds.  However, in the same way that evidence cannot lead to a conclusion that evolution is correct at a 100% level of confidence, evidence cannot lead to a conclusion that God exists at a 100% level of confidence.

Edit 2:  I think it's imperative you understand this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

Quote
The problem of induction is the philosophical question of whether inductive reasoning leads to knowledge understood in the classic philosophical sense,[1] since it focuses on the lack of justification for either:

Generalizing about the properties of a class of objects based on some number of observations of particular instances of that class (for example, the inference that "all swans we have seen are white, and therefore all swans are white," before the discovery of black swans) or
Presupposing that a sequence of events in the future will occur as it always has in the past (for example, that the laws of physics will hold as they have always been observed to hold). Hume called this the principle of uniformity of nature.[2]
The problem calls into question all empirical claims made in everyday life or through the scientific method and for that reason the philosopher C. D. Broad said that "induction is the glory of science and the scandal of philosophy." Although the problem arguably dates back to the Pyrrhonism of ancient philosophy, as well as the Carvaka school of Indian philosophy, David Hume introduced it in the mid-18th century, with the most notable response provided by Karl Popper two centuries later.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 04:04:54 PM
So, what are you trying to do, my non-brother? Make me feel guilty?

I want you to have some responsibility for your behavior.

As far as I know, our beliefs are NOT in conflict.

What is different is that you believe in a savior who will take away your responsibility. However, Matt 5:22 clearly states that you will be held responsible (to an extreme) if you call a believer a fool.

You have called me a fool. But I still do not know why your Bible is right and the WORD is wrong, and how you can prove this without quoting from the WORD (i.e. doing a comparison).

I never wanted it to be like this; in fact, I only read Matt 5:22 today.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 03:39:42 PM
Hi BADecker,

You were talking about MY foolishness???

Jesus said:

"I can guarantee that whoever is angry with another believer (his brother) will answer for it in court. Whoever calls another believer (his brother) an insulting name will answer for it in the highest court. Whoever calls another believer (his brother) a fool (impious) will answer for it in hellfire."

I am your brother; I believe in Christ, and yet you attack ME under the guise of attacking "my foolishness".

 Undecided

We are kinda having fun, aren't we?

If you are a believer in Jesus Christ of the Bible, you have expressed the opposite of it in your posts.

So, what are you trying to do, my non-brother? Make me feel guilty?

What does God require to do the works of God? Simply, believe in Jesus Christ Whom He has sent. If it weren't for the Bible, nobody would even know about the Christ.

Or did you convert within the last half-hour or so?

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 03:04:27 PM
Hi BADecker,

You were talking about MY foolishness???

Jesus said:

"I can guarantee that whoever is angry with another believer (his brother) will answer for it in court. Whoever calls another believer (his brother) an insulting name will answer for it in the highest court. Whoever calls another believer (his brother) a fool (impious) will answer for it in hellfire."

I am your brother; I believe in Christ, and yet you attack ME under the guise of attacking "my foolishness".

 Undecided
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 02:41:15 PM
BADecker,

You are not supposed to attack your brother.

Here we go again. How do you even know I have a brother? It certainly isn't you, if I do.


Quote

Why do you call my beliefs foolishness? That is NOT Christian behavior and I obviously do not accept it. Matt 5:22-24.

I was talking about your foolishness. Nobody knows what you believe... probably not even you, yourself. For example, here you are, appearing to quote the Bible that you don't believe in.


Quote
Why do you attack me when you have no basis for doing so? That is NOT rational behavior and I will require you to correct your mistake like a responsible Christed being.

Attack you? I can't even get you to slow down from attacking yourself! Of course, why should I? Because I would have pity for a dumb animal as well. Get off it, non-brother.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 02:33:59 PM
BADecker,

You are not supposed to attack your brother.

Why do you call my beliefs foolishness? That is NOT Christian behavior and I obviously do not accept it. Matt 5:22-24.

Why do you attack me when you have no basis for doing so? That is NOT rational behavior and I will require you to correct your mistake like a responsible Christed being.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 02:27:49 PM
I can't apologize for your foolishness. Only you can do that.

You can show me where I am wrong. Literally and explicitly.

You call it foolishness but you did not do any comparison, so you contradict yourself.

No wonder you want this conversation to end!

It's in my posts. I have repeated it over and over. Any time you want to take a look, simply click my handle "BADecker" at the top left of any of my posts, go to the bottom of the linked page that comes up, and click the "Show the last posts of this person" link. Then read to your little heart's content.

Smiley


Many in this thread have criticized (you because of) your failure to understand logic.

You fail to provide substantial criticism of my truth; it seems like you do not even want to. Hence, I accept that my WORD and your WORD do agree with each other, even though I question the integrity of the Bible.

Since God is everywhere, God's truth is everywhere, so it seems wrong to limit truth to two volumes; we should do a real comparison.

So you aren't going to read my posts? Well, then what further do we have to talk about? As far as logic goes, the whole logic of posting in this forum is as found below.
You are not required to accept anything that I say. Who is going to require it of you? Certainly not me. How can I force you to accept anything from me? I don't have the means or method even if I wanted to. You talk foolishness - in circles, though not as circular as some others. Why would you think that you must accept anything from me... words or anything else?

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 02:22:06 PM
I can't apologize for your foolishness. Only you can do that.

You can show me where I am wrong. Literally and explicitly.

You call it foolishness but you did not do any comparison, so you contradict yourself.

No wonder you want this conversation to end!

It's in my posts. I have repeated it over and over. Any time you want to take a look, simply click my handle "BADecker" at the top left of any of my posts, go to the bottom of the linked page that comes up, and click the "Show the last posts of this person" link. Then read to your little heart's content.

Smiley


Many in this thread have criticized (you because of) your failure to understand logic.

You fail to provide substantial criticism of my truth; it seems like you do not even want to. Hence, I accept that my WORD and your WORD do agree with each other, even though I question the integrity of the Bible.

Since God is everywhere, God's truth is everywhere, so it seems wrong to limit truth to two volumes; we should do a real comparison.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 02:16:11 PM
I can't apologize for your foolishness. Only you can do that.

You can show me where I am wrong. Literally and explicitly.

You call it foolishness but you did not do any comparison, so you contradict yourself.

No wonder you want this conversation to end!

It's in my posts. I have repeated it over and over. Any time you want to take a look, simply click my handle "BADecker" at the top left of any of my posts, go to the bottom of the linked page that comes up, and click the "Show the last posts of this person" link. Then read to your little heart's content.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 02:11:15 PM
I can't apologize for your foolishness. Only you can do that.

You can show me where I am wrong. Literally and explicitly.

You call it foolishness but you did not do any comparison, so you contradict yourself.

No wonder you want this conversation to end!

You simply will not listen to anyone that questions the integrity of the Bible; you just call them a fool and leave it at that! No further investigation needed.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 01:52:07 PM
baddecker is a fool - he thinks the millions of people dying from hunger in Africa are doing so by choice.  His own words.   Roll Eyes

The millions in Africa and around the world that believe in Jesus for eternal life, will be raised in the resurrection of all people, to that eternal life they believed Jesus for.

Other than that, nobody likes pain, but everybody dies.

Smiley
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
December 10, 2014, 01:49:26 PM
baddecker is a fool - he thinks the millions of people dying from hunger in Africa are doing so by choice.  His own words.   Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 01:49:01 PM

I don't doubt it. I compare it with what the Bible says, and then I know. Doubt doesn't have anything to do with it.


Where have you compared the WORD with the Bible in order to determine that God's WORD is a heresy?

I thought your argument was that all writings outside of Revelations are heresies?

I probably won't answer a lot of things that you have to say.

I will never play games with the truth, nor will I accuse one of some thing before giving one a chance to defend oneself.

"Comparison" has nothing to do with it; you have not made any explicit comparison whatsoever, you just go "by the book".

I also have very important things to do, namely: Real study of literal truth.

God's Hosts state that God's people should never be without something of great importance to do.

Well, thank you, then. Does this mean that our talks are finally concluded?

Smiley

We can conclude our talks as soon as you apologize for:

Calling my truth "foolishness" without even making an explicit comparison with your truth so that we may discuss such comparison in wisdom of knowledge.

I am pretty sure that such behavior is the height of ignorance and exactly what is meant in the parable about the splinter and the beam.

I care not if the apology is public or private.

I can't apologize for your foolishness. Only you can do that.

Smiley

EDIT: You might try repenting of it after you apologize.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 01:41:48 PM

I don't doubt it. I compare it with what the Bible says, and then I know. Doubt doesn't have anything to do with it.


Where have you compared the WORD with the Bible in order to determine that God's WORD is a heresy?

I thought your argument was that all writings outside of Revelations are heresies?

I probably won't answer a lot of things that you have to say.

I will never play games with the truth, nor will I accuse one of some thing before giving one a chance to defend oneself.

"Comparison" has nothing to do with it; you have not made any explicit comparison whatsoever, you just go "by the book".

I also have very important things to do, namely: Real study of literal truth.

God's Hosts state that God's people should never be without something of great importance to do.

Well, thank you, then. Does this mean that our talks are finally concluded?

Smiley

We can conclude our talks as soon as you apologize for:

Calling my truth "foolishness" without even making an explicit comparison with your truth so that we may discuss such comparison in wisdom of knowledge.

I am pretty sure that such behavior is the height of ignorance and exactly what is meant in the parable about the splinter and the beam.

I care not if the apology is public or private.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 01:35:53 PM

I don't doubt it. I compare it with what the Bible says, and then I know. Doubt doesn't have anything to do with it.


Where have you compared the WORD with the Bible in order to determine that God's WORD is a heresy?

I thought your argument was that all writings outside of Revelations are heresies?

I probably won't answer a lot of things that you have to say.

I will never play games with the truth, nor will I accuse one of some thing before giving one a chance to defend oneself.

"Comparison" has nothing to do with it; you have not made any explicit comparison whatsoever, you just go "by the book".

I also have very important things to do, namely: Real study of literal truth.

God's Hosts state that God's people should never be without something of great importance to do.

Well, thank you, then. Does this mean that our talks are finally concluded?

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 01:30:47 PM

I don't doubt it. I compare it with what the Bible says, and then I know. Doubt doesn't have anything to do with it.


Where have you compared the WORD with the Bible in order to determine that God's WORD is a heresy?

I thought your argument was that all writings outside of Revelations are heresies?

I probably won't answer a lot of things that you have to say.

I will never play games with the truth, nor will I accuse one of some thing before giving one a chance to defend oneself.

"Comparison" has nothing to do with it; you have not made any explicit comparison whatsoever, you just go "by the book".

I also have very important things to do, namely: Real study of literal truth.

God's Hosts state that God's people should never be without something to do of great purpose.
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 01:22:36 PM

I don't doubt it. I compare it with what the Bible says, and then I know. Doubt doesn't have anything to do with it.


Where have you compared the WORD with the Bible in order to determine that God's WORD is a heresy?

I thought your argument was that all writings outside of Revelations are heresies?

Since your posts generally indicate either that:
A. you don't understand;
B. you intentionally mix things up;
C. you write in circles;
I probably won't answer a lot of things that you have to say. There are better things to do in life than to tutor you or play games with you.

Smiley
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
December 10, 2014, 01:18:25 PM

I don't doubt it. I compare it with what the Bible says, and then I know. Doubt doesn't have anything to do with it.


Where have you compared the WORD with the Bible in order to determine that God's WORD is a heresy?

I thought your argument was that all writings outside of Revelations ("this book") are heresies?
legendary
Activity: 3990
Merit: 1385
December 10, 2014, 01:15:37 PM

Jesus never wrote down a single word and Paul was never a "follower of Christ".

What does the fact that we don't have any evidence of Jesus writing ink on paper have to do with anything?

When you look at the writings of Paul in the Bible, you see that not only was he a follower of Jesus Christ, but he was as close to being a fanatic for Jesus Christ as you can get while doing things in moderation.


Quote
If I tell you that Jesus says something, and you doubt it, then why must I accept it when YOU say that Jesus says something?

I don't doubt it. I compare it with what the Bible says, and then I know. Doubt doesn't have anything to do with it.

You are not required to accept anything that I say. Who is going to require it of you? Certainly not me. How can I force you to accept anything from me? I don't have the means or method even if I wanted to. You talk foolishness - in circles, though not as circular as some others. Why would you think that you must accept anything from me... words or anything else?

Smiley
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