Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 9. (Read 6990 times)

True, earthquakes are possible. I guess I take that for granted, since natural disasters don't really happen a lot in the UK. except for flooding I suppose, but that entirely depends on where you live. Obviously, multiple backups should be done, but I do fear that most users will have multiple backups in either the same place or in close proximity, which you know kind of defeats the point.

Anyway, I should've probably been a little more open minded in terms of natural disasters, that was mainly ignorance from me, and potentially insensitive considering what's happening in Turkey. So, I definitely apoligise if that came across wrong. However, the point does still somewhat stand. If you're worried about it, then you could mitigate that by storing it elsewhere or by having multiple backups as mentioned. Since, you can't really mitigate natural disasters such as the earthquakes if your washer gets a direct hit from something as large as a concrete building falling down, it's likely not going to survive that especially since they'll be stacked up if you're storing in the recommended containers. The flatter it is the more chance it has, but even then I wouldn't be confident of it.

Instead of trying to find a material that could withstand that though, just remove the possibility if possible. I understand for rather large earthquakes or natural disasters that could be difficult. However, you could potentially revert to the ol' digging technique in a marked location in the middle of nowhere, where the chances of someone discovering it would be incredibly slim.

I'm actually in the process of doing it, and not just for my Bitcoin, but other things like certain credentials. However, my threat model isn't as extreme as some of the options here, since I live in a relatively stable area which doesn't have too many hazards.

This is actually a great point.
Thinking of an earthquake you are barred to access your home for a very long period of time, even if it is standing.
It it reduced in rubble, you probably wouldn't have access to the debris.
In case of a large washers pile, the probability someone see it an d understand what it is, is not negligible.


In my case, given my very personal threat vectors, I opted for a washer stack similar to the one depicted in this thread enclosed in a safe box in a bank. (multiple layers of security, underground, water around it, etc).
Not because my stack is huge, but because It is convenient to me.

We've seen with the recent earthquakes how important it can be to have a seed phrase backup that can withstand some damage.
One of the reasons I like to use one washer per 24-word seed backup and large washers is that the end result is relatively large and bulky, so you could find it again in such a scenario.

Of course, it would be much easier to just go to one of your other 'off-site' backup locations, import the seed phrase and move the coins to a fresh wallet (in case someone finds your backup in the rubble).

That's a legitimate worry, but not really an issue if you have multiple backups. Unless of course, a huge region is affected by natural disasters like tsunami, earthquake, tornado and all your backups are in that affected region. Or if there are war bombings in the whole region..

I've seen washers get run over, I mean they're often scattered around in work sites with all kinds of machinery driving over it. Unless, it's standing up, and then something very heavy drops on it. It's going to be absolutely fine. You shouldn't be putting your backup, something that's extremely important to you in harms way in the first place. I can't think of any circumstance this would be justified. Unless, you live in a concrete building, and you're worried about it falling down. I'd be more worried about gaining access to the debris to find it, rather than it being destroyed though. I mean, if you're concerned about this then I probably wouldn't have it there in the first place.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about this at all.

You're not wrong, but is this really something to worry about? I've had all kinds of coins in my wallet my entire life, and never ever did any one of them get physically destroyed. I've used metal washers for various applications, and the worst I've seen was surface rust. I've seen surface rust on stainless steel too, but only after prolonged exposure to seawater.

You'll need to put the washer on a train track and have it run over (seriously, don't do this!) to flatten it enough to make it unreadable.

New times (and technologies) give rise to new treasure seekers. Who would have thought that the guy who lost his laptop with btc would want to dig in a garbage dump (I don’t remember his name, but it seems he is from England and still hopes to get permission to excavate the svali from the authorities).


Yes, maybe so, and these fears are from the category of fiction with a very low probability of what will happen. But fires also don't occur every day and in every apartment (the probability of occurrence is also not as high as it seems), but many will prefer refractory metal.

Is it not possible to choose door hinges of the quality and material you need? As I said above, they exist from stainless steel (and other metals as well).


The issue of corrosion is solved very easily - it is enough to isolate the metal from contact with air. It can be oil, paint or other substance.

We need some of the chemists in the thread to test copper stamping.
Also, apart from resistance to fire, also resistance to physical damage is to be tested: copper is way more malleable than stainless steel if I am not wrong.

Although it's true copper easily corrodes (we have old buildings with copper roofs that are now green), it also forms a protective layer. Plain iron would rust away completely, copper doesn't.
Also, since copper is much softer, it's much easier to use a letter stamp. Stainless steel is quite difficult to dent. I haven't tried, but I can't imagine the (much deeper) letters in copper are hard to read. And even if that's the case after 50 years in the rain, just use some sand paper to remove the green surface and you'll have green letters on a red copper plate.

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.
Why should you use copper? 10$is not that different from the price of the washers.

Copper is durable metal and you can use it, but stainless steel is better in every way and it's even cheaper than copper if you buy washers in your local shop, they are less than $10.
If copper was better than everyone would use it to make metal backups for Bitcoin, and I only saw one or two products who did that, compared to hundreds of projects that use stainless steel.
FYI Copper melting point is 1981 F (1083 C), and for stainless steel that is 2750 F (1510 C), big difference if fire happens near your metal backup.

Brilliant suggestion!  Well, not really. Corrosion resistance of copper depending on conditions isn't the best compared to stainless steel or titanium and copper's melting point is too close to house fire temperatures. What's the point going the bargain route here?

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

That's true, but we don't have to be all that creative. Who's going to scan your walls with a metal detector? Even, if they did, and it went off it could be pipes or anything really. There's a ton of metal in my walls. Plus, no one's really going to think of that unless you're a really high target, but most of us aren't targets to that. So, while I like the discussion about creative ideas, I think we should probably keep it to realistic threat levels.

Plus, I'm not convinced by door hinges. I've seen some very poor quality hinges which rust like crazy when exposed to moisture. So, I'd preferably go for something that's resistant to corrosion.

Still, I've never heard of anything searching walls with a metal detector for Bitcoin The only reason to do that would be to avoid drilling in pipes.
I'm not worried about this. Besides, I'd fill the hole with a screw, which makes it even more obvious there's metal.

I understand you, but you are missing one small detail. The detectors easily distinguish between iron (with which concrete walls are reinforced) and stainless steel (which your washers or plates will most likely be made of). Therefore, experienced people who know how to use a metal detector without any problems and accurately determine the location of foreign metal in the wall. Unless seed-phrase is applied to a piece of iron, so as not to stand out against the rest of the background, but will be subject to corrosion.

What do I want to say? There are many different factors to consider when choosing how to store seed-phrases and locations. There will always be people who can find hidden places made by other people.

When taking about concrete walls, i assumed it's reinforced concrete (which has steel rods in there). So a metal detector will always detect something.

It will be better to store in a hole in concrete than in a doorway. But I think it’s better not on a piece of paper, but in the form of a rod, like cryptosteel capsule or hexagonal stainless steel rod. Drilled a hole and inserted, it's simple. Of course, disguised.


Again, nothing prevents the washers from being hidden in the concrete. You just have to make the hole a little larger in size and it is better to fill the voids with concrete or something similar so that the cavities don't tap out. But a metal detector will still be able to detect the presence of metal. Then the option with a piece of paper turns out to be better, having previously processed it from destruction and placed, for example, in fireproof packaging.

In general, as I said, there are a lot of options where and how to hide seed phrase. It all depends on having the right tools and creative ideas.

This is a very fun idea. Yet, the simplicity, flexibility and security of a bolt with washers is still unbeaten in my opinion.

Speaking of simplicity: I noticed Shiftcrypto sells tamper evident bags:



https://shiftcrypto.shop/en/products/tamper-evident-bags-27/?packagesize=5-bags

Make sure to double check if you have the correct side.
I remember guys who worked on my new windows several years ago, they totally screwed everything up and set them up in reversed way, yeah this really happened.
Instead of using this hinges on heavy doors, I would suggest adding them to smaller doors maybe on wardrobe, closet or maybe smaller kitchen or toilet elements.
Nobody will look for seed words in my toilet, right?  

I thought the idea was to stamp all the words into a single hinge. Or maybe 2 hinges of a door. In total they have 4 individual (hidden) sides, so it would only be 3 words per hinge-part.

Something like this, but obviously on the other side.


Words are supposed to go here.