Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 9. (Read 7364 times)

When you consider price, I mean the loss of strength in copper probably isn't worth it. I think copper should be left to pipes in your home, and not as a way of storing something important on them. Stainless steel, and potentially titanium are really really the only options you need. Though, personally in this application stainless steel is the superior choice, and readily available from every single hardware store.

You also get Copper Oxide from Copper, and that's not something you want when dealing with storing indentations. I mean, technically you could clean it up, but what's the point when there's other materials which aren't as prone to oxidizing in the first place?

Right, generally the more malleable it's the more prone to accidental damage. Obviously, that entirely depends what you're doing with your seeds, and what sort of risk they're potentially subjected too, but I'd like to think most of us would like one of the most durable options, especially when the price difference isn't substantial.

Indeed. Just remind me why we are talking about copper washers, when we have another superior material in practically every aspects.
Because of malleability? Are you serious?

Those are crush washers: the edge is small, and the hole is big. I've never seen a "normal" washer made out of copper, it's too soft to be used as construction material. So there's not much space for stamping words.

Copper washers are also widely available and cheap, but I am sure everyone already have something from copper in their home, just make sure it's pure copper, not some of the cheaper alloys.
I checked local prices for copper washers and they are very cheap, but I would always choose stainless steel if I had the option to choose, because it has much higher melting point and I think it's more durable.
It would be interesting to see stress testing for copper washers, maybe that Italian member (can't remember his name) can do another round of testing soon with more acid and fire

we're living during ice age. http://www.atmo.arizona.edu/students/courselinks/fall12/atmo336/lectures/sec5/pleistocene.html#:~:text=We%20are%20currently%20in%20a,occur%20in%20about%2085%2C000%20years.

granite yeah

It's more of a gimmick, I wouldn't use it as a backup (because it's far too much work, and a dirty job to do). But I wouldn't really worry about durability when stored properly (just like I don't really worry about paper either).

I don't really worry about someone peeling my seed phrase with a knife If that happens, I have a problem already.

Granite?

That's a joke, right.. PCBs have a super thin copper layer glued onto a piece of FR4. The copper can be peeled off with just a knife. That's also why solder pads can rip off the FR4 base material when you put stress on an SMD solder joint. So, sure it is a 'metal backup' but with none of the physical properties we usually attribute to a 'metal seed phrase backup'..

I've yet to see something that beats stainless steel washers!

That looks bad, but it's not something I'd worry about when storing seed words on copper plates. It looks like someone put in a lot of effort to make it look like "mold".
This picture made me look up what happened to copper on the Titanic, and that shows you're much better off using bronze (if you want to store it safely on the ocean floor for a century). Lol

But it can create an extra headache with cleaning the metal from oxidation. Not to mention that it will make the text hard to read. As always happens: it is easier to prevent than to eliminate the consequences.

One day you may need urgent access to the seed phrase and taking out this epoxy you will see something similar to the picture. This is a waste of time, which can already be very little.

Well, yes, this is the most important thing in the securing seed phrases. The main thing is to shine.  

I'm okay with copper oxidizing. It will still perform it's function.

To keep it shiny, I'd use varnish indeed.

The part that is made of copper will need to be additionally covered with a layer of solder, which is applied using a soldering iron. To prevent copper from oxidizing. It's still a thin layer of copper, like foil. So, it will require additional skills and tools. Although in principle, you can varnish or something like that. Whatever is at hand will do.

I would prefer to cover this piece of epoxy with a second one with the same dimensions and connect them with bolts and nuts, having previously drilled them (strengthens the structure and protects from prying eyes). You can also stick a protective sticker.

I've spent many, many hours rebooting into offline mode running from DVD, copying transactions and rebooting again when it turns out I used the wrong version or wrong fee. It's a pain indeed, and got much better since I have a spare laptop dedicated for this. But it gives peace of mind knowing for a fact that my funds are safe.

This reminds me of PCB etching:

After printing the seed words (on a secure offline system) on a transparent sheet, you follow one of the many PCB etching tutorials to get your text in copper on epoxy.
It's not as fire resistant as stainless steel, but looks very nice. If only you could show it to people

A source would be helpful. I assume this etches the metal; is it known how deep this etch is and how well it will hold up over time?
Cutting out stencils also seems a bit of a tedious process; though it may be a really viable alternative for whoever has no access to stamps (e.g. expensive due to weak local currency).

Yeah, I haven't got too many backups myself. I do have backups, but I'm comfortable with the level of backups, and I think that's the whole point of this discussion. Do what makes you feel comfortable, even though a lot of it will likely be overkill. However, to feel comfortable, I'd absolutely recommend going through the painful experience of securing your wallets. I know the pain, I've delved into security a few times in the past, and even my routine new computer setup has now reached like stupid levels of complexity, which is very likely considered impractical to a lot of users, and quite frankly not needed. However, I do it because that's what makes me feel comfortable.

Like I said though, I'm currently in the process of doing something similar to the OP with other things that aren't Bitcoin related, and I say currently very loosely, because it's very long process.

Other locations have forest fires, high crime rates or many other risk factors. Although devastating on a local scale, natural disasters still have a low chance of occuring in most places. There are much bigger risk factors on a personal level.

Multiple backups is indeed the logical solution, but increases the risk of someone gaining access. I'm fairly certain I could just post my encrypted private keys on Bitcointalk as a backup, but I wouldn't dare do that. After many years in Bitcoin, the compromise between keeping access by myself and having someone else gain access still feels uncomfortable.

LoyceV tactics of putting paper backup inside walls wouldn't end very well in this earthquake scenario, but I don't think slightly larger washers would make much difference.
Only thing that would work in events like this is if you have multiple backups distributed in different locations, different cities, regions or even countries.
We could argue that living in house is much better option than living in tall buildings, and if you want to hide anything, digging a hole in your backyard or near your favorite tree/flower would be much better.

Stable can quickly turn to unstable, and it doesn't have to be natural disasters.
I know some people who are having big problems with immigrants, police are not doing anything about them, they are armed, they are dealing drugs, and doing all kinds of shit.
They look more like armed forces ready to be deployed on command.

They banned gold in past, so nothing would surprise me anymore.

When I was referring to threats I was thinking about legal ones, like government banning bitcoin possessions, or legal ones (an asset seizure from government) or a search warrant of your belongings.
Not just natural disasters, rather self-inflicted ones!

True, earthquakes are possible. I guess I take that for granted, since natural disasters don't really happen a lot in the UK. except for flooding I suppose, but that entirely depends on where you live. Obviously, multiple backups should be done, but I do fear that most users will have multiple backups in either the same place or in close proximity, which you know kind of defeats the point.

Anyway, I should've probably been a little more open minded in terms of natural disasters, that was mainly ignorance from me, and potentially insensitive considering what's happening in Turkey. So, I definitely apoligise if that came across wrong. However, the point does still somewhat stand. If you're worried about it, then you could mitigate that by storing it elsewhere or by having multiple backups as mentioned. Since, you can't really mitigate natural disasters such as the earthquakes if your washer gets a direct hit from something as large as a concrete building falling down, it's likely not going to survive that especially since they'll be stacked up if you're storing in the recommended containers. The flatter it is the more chance it has, but even then I wouldn't be confident of it.

Instead of trying to find a material that could withstand that though, just remove the possibility if possible. I understand for rather large earthquakes or natural disasters that could be difficult. However, you could potentially revert to the ol' digging technique in a marked location in the middle of nowhere, where the chances of someone discovering it would be incredibly slim.

I'm actually in the process of doing it, and not just for my Bitcoin, but other things like certain credentials. However, my threat model isn't as extreme as some of the options here, since I live in a relatively stable area which doesn't have too many hazards.

This is actually a great point.
Thinking of an earthquake you are barred to access your home for a very long period of time, even if it is standing.
It it reduced in rubble, you probably wouldn't have access to the debris.
In case of a large washers pile, the probability someone see it an d understand what it is, is not negligible.


In my case, given my very personal threat vectors, I opted for a washer stack similar to the one depicted in this thread enclosed in a safe box in a bank. (multiple layers of security, underground, water around it, etc).
Not because my stack is huge, but because It is convenient to me.

We've seen with the recent earthquakes how important it can be to have a seed phrase backup that can withstand some damage.
One of the reasons I like to use one washer per 24-word seed backup and large washers is that the end result is relatively large and bulky, so you could find it again in such a scenario.

Of course, it would be much easier to just go to one of your other 'off-site' backup locations, import the seed phrase and move the coins to a fresh wallet (in case someone finds your backup in the rubble).

That's a legitimate worry, but not really an issue if you have multiple backups. Unless of course, a huge region is affected by natural disasters like tsunami, earthquake, tornado and all your backups are in that affected region. Or if there are war bombings in the whole region..