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Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 6. (Read 7364 times)

hero member
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not your keys, not your coins!
Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.
What if we assume that 3D printers log the data of what you have printed?
To the best of my knowledge, all major / popular 3D printer models either ship with or their hardware supports open-source firmware like Marlin or Klipper.

They both do store the 3d model that you want to print (it's a feature), but you can format the SD card afterwards or just delete the file. I don't think they have any hidden 'logs' of models, but since they are open-source everyone can check for themselves.

Marlin also doesn't have any internet access, as far as I know (haven't used it in a while). So there is no uplink to anyone's servers whatsoever, i.e. no risk of anyone knowing what you are printing as long as you own your own 3d printer.

Bottom line though: you don't need any printed jigs. You can just do the washer backup by hand. Smiley
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I think that one good way to hide seed phrases is to paint the wall with white anti-mold paint, then draw seed phrases with black paint, then use the paint sealer, then buy some nice wallpapers and install wallpapers yourself. While I probably wouldn't 100% depend on that method, it still looks nice and fun but still, I prefer memorizing and repeating of 12 words seed phrase to seal it in brain, that's the most brutal method out there with the highest pros and cons Cheesy
Then what? When you need your backup, you spray your wall until seed words appear in mold?
I guess no one will ever think that someone has bitcoin wallet and hides seed phrases behind the wallpaper. When you need your backup, you just remove the wallpaper from the wall. If you want to delete your seed phrases, you'll repaint the wall, buy a new wallpaper and continue life.

There is no such thing as ”unused shoes” for a woman.
Depends on the shoe, she will definitely make a drama out of it and will try to get a new one(s) from you because of your mistake Cheesy When you buy her an expensive shoe(s), she will definitely reconcile with you Cheesy

By the way, there is no such thing as unused shoes for a man, as women say. For example, tell your wife, who has ten times more shoes than you, that you need to buy a new one and she will quickly reply that you have enough, if anyone needs new shoes, it's her because she hasn't bought them for six months Cheesy
legendary
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Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?
Very possible scenario.
If I'd do the same to my wife's old, unused shoes, I'm dead Tongue

Rookie mistake.
There is no such thing as ”unused shoes” for a woman.
legendary
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Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?
Very possible scenario.
If I'd do the same to my wife's old, unused shoes, I'm dead Tongue
I would expect most couples to know not to throw out each other's stuff without asking.

Really? Darling can't clean up the mess in her room, let alone the garage. Smiley
Good point Cheesy Or use your manly strength: put 400 kg of crap on top. Or mount the washers (still my favourite). Use them to hang something from the ceiling. If you ever need your backup, you'll be forced to clear out the garage first. That's good against impulsive selling Tongue

I think that one good way to hide seed phrases is to paint the wall with white anti-mold paint, then draw seed phrases with black paint, then use the paint sealer, then buy some nice wallpapers and install wallpapers yourself. While I probably wouldn't 100% depend on that method, it still looks nice and fun but still, I prefer memorizing and repeating of 12 words seed phrase to seal it in brain, that's the most brutal method out there with the highest pros and cons Cheesy
Then what? When you need your backup, you spray your wall until seed words appear in mold?
legendary
Activity: 2380
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Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.
What if we assume that 3D printers log the data of what you have printed?

You should assume the printer knows what you are printing.
Note that you are not printing the seed, just a Jig.
The attacker would know you printed a jig to stamp washers with a seed phrase but would have no access to the seed itself.
As far as my own experiment, I bought the two jigs, and I am pretty sure the ones who printed me those objects had no idea of what they were doing.
So in case the attacker would beat them, not me.
hero member
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Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim
Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.
What if we assume that 3D printers log the data of what you have printed?

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?
Very possible scenario.
This also entails the choice of the degree of knowledge your better half should have about your stashing habits.
So many choices...so many trade-offs.
Nobody said financial self-sovereignty were easy.
I think that one good way to hide seed phrases is to paint the wall with white anti-mold paint, then draw seed phrases with black paint, then use the paint sealer, then buy some nice wallpapers and install wallpapers yourself. While I probably wouldn't 100% depend on that method, it still looks nice and fun but still, I prefer memorizing and repeating of 12 words seed phrase to seal it in brain, that's the most brutal method out there with the highest pros and cons Cheesy

legendary
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Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?
Really? Darling can't clean up the mess in her room, let alone the garage. Smiley

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?
Very possible scenario.
This also entails the choice of the degree of knowledge your better half should have about your stashing habits.
So many choices...so many trade-offs.
Nobody said financial self-sovereignty were easy.
On the other side of financial independence lies financial responsibility, expressed in ensuring the safe storage of financial assets.

~snip

I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers  underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.
Detectors can easily be tricked with decoy junk, and there are some materials that makes anything almost invisible for metal detectors, if you know what you are doing.

~snip
Deceive with garbage from various metals? You have not seen what remains after these diggers: bare earth without grains of metal. Skilful and experienced seekers will find everything in the soil, down to the last paper clip. Therefore, burying a seed-container according to Jameson Lopp's method, in a public place, is not such a good solution. If random searchers with a metal detector wander into that place, then seed phrases can be found. Neither the depth of the burrow (unless you dig deeper) nor the metall debris around will stop them. But the use of invisible materials is already an interesting solution that should be developed. The main thing is that it is resistant to the external environment, just like metal (stainless) or close to it.
legendary
Activity: 2380
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Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?
Very possible scenario.
This also entails the choice of the degree of knowledge your better half should have about your stashing habits.
So many choices...so many trade-offs.
Nobody said financial self-sovereignty were easy.
hero member
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Merit: 1010
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Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?
legendary
Activity: 2212
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A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.
He is security expert who really thinks well before doing something for improving security for his Bitcoin.
I personally wouldn't choose to bury anything like he did, but there are plenty of other options we can choose, and I like stealth option more.
There is nothing wrong in combination of different methods, especially for people who are using multisig setup.

I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers  underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.
Detectors can easily be tricked with decoy junk, and there are some materials that makes anything almost invisible for metal detectors, if you know what you are doing.

Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?
He probably wouldn't do it, unless he gets amnesia, but there is a good chance his family members could do that.
 
legendary
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Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?
Some people never throw anything away Wink That only works if you don't buy too much unnecessary stuff, otherwise you'll turn into a hoarder. I'd say a box in a garage is a good place, usually those places store decades worth of items that "may come in handy some day", so it doesn't stand out.

Yeah, of course if you are Marie Kondo, such a box would be a very bad place to hide something, while I know people never throw anything (I say anything) away because “it’s a memory of something good and I want to keep it”.

Again, security is extremely personal!
legendary
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Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?
Some people never throw anything away Wink That only works if you don't buy too much unnecessary stuff, otherwise you'll turn into a hoarder. I'd say a box in a garage is a good place, usually those places store decades worth of items that "may come in handy some day", so it doesn't stand out.



The biggest risk is probably someone going through old junk looking for a few washers to fit something.
legendary
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A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.


I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers  underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.

My own seed is safely stashed away in a box located in the garage, where it blends among numerous boxes, all full with abundance of washes.



Every setup has pro and cons.

Firstly, in the article is explained how to dig your seed deep enough not to be exploited by a metal detector (and also is explained that you should bury it somewhere not beaten by that class of lobbyist)

Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?

Just to say the security mix is peculiar for each of us.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 1298
A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.


I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers  underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.

My own seed is safely stashed away in a box located in the garage, where it blends among numerous boxes, all full with abundance of washes.

legendary
Activity: 3290
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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.
Now I'm curious how it will look like after 10,000 years, when archaeologists dig up someone's old Bitcoin seed phrase (by then worth a mansion on another planet). I expect the plastic to become brittle within a few centuries, and eventually start falling apart. The stainless steel might last longer.

You can still draw an analog map like the old pirates did. Treasure maps are fun! Geo cache, anyone? (The last: I'm obviously joking, but hey...)
The problem is, I live in the Netherlands. Every square cm is cultivated.
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...
And how about writing down the gps coordinates of the location of the buried container? To facilitate future searches for myself (or heirs). Should do this or turn on paranoid mode and not record the location coordinates? Smiley

Let's visit the Paranoia Club, I heard they have some new fancy cocktails to serve.  Grin

Can you rely on your GPS device to show you non-spoofed or altered coordinates? We've seen this in some areas in times of trouble. As GPS accuracy varies, you don't get such precise coordinates for others to find your treasure easily if that's necessary. But of course it's better than having nothing. Analog offline recording of the GPS coordinates is likely key here.

Taking a picture of your site is like digital processing your treasure's location with digital devices. You likely end up storing such information on some device that gets online and from that point your treasure's safety might become compromised. You can use some hopefully not changing landmarks and some offline tools and measures to pinpoint your treasure's location good enough so recovery for you or your beloved ones is possible.

You can still draw an analog map like the old pirates did. Treasure maps are fun! Geo cache, anyone? (The last: I'm obviously joking, but hey...)
legendary
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Jameson Lopp, who worked as inspiration for this guide, published an interesting blog post:

How to Bury a Bitcoin Seed Phrase Backup
Quote
Lessons learned from a multi-year experiment with burying a metal seed phrase bitcoin backup.

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

The project was extremely successful as he stated in this long post!
A lot of lessons were learned here!
Indeed, the container from PVC sewer fittings, parts of which were purchased from a nearby hardware store, looks amazing. Surprisingly affordable, cheap, quite strong and reliable, capable of protecting seed phrases from the influence of an aggressive environment, and also not attracting too much attention when buying components of a future container. Also, easy to make.

But I'd rather make some changes. Instead of a credit card-sized plate, I would use stainless steel washers popular in this topic, fastened together with a rod and bolted on both sides. And already this design, I would put it in a PVC container, selected by size. This would reduce the overall dimensions. But this is a matter of taste, so to speak.

"I did not leave any physical markings when I buried my backup. Nor did I create a map to find it. This would have been a very poor inheritance plan, as no one but myself knew about this little project." - Jameson Lopp wrote in the same article.

And how about writing down the gps coordinates of the location of the buried container? To facilitate future searches for myself (or heirs). Should do this or turn on paranoid mode and not record the location coordinates? Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Jameson Lopp, who worked as inspiration for this guide, published an interesting blog post:

How to Bury a Bitcoin Seed Phrase Backup
Quote
Lessons learned from a multi-year experiment with burying a metal seed phrase bitcoin backup.

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

The project was extremely successful as he stated in this long post!
A lot of lessons were learned here!
legendary
Activity: 1792
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The print files are very useful and would have definitely made it easier for me to create the backup. I think this is the point where I will need to order finally a 3D printer Cool

What are the stamps that you used for those devices, as there are so many different stamp types with different dimensions?
 
Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.

You can print it from friends who have a 3D printer or order printouts of parts in different workshops (people) so that they don't understand what this part is needed for. Of course, the bitcoin text and BTC-logo will need to be removed from the print files (not to print).

In fact, you can do without a jig. You won't be competing in calligraphy with stamps, will you? Smiley

 
As you might guess, the stamps are the most common standard sizes, matched to the dimensions of the washers. With the choice of the ratio of the size of the stamps and washers, well, you should be able to cope. This is a task for schoolboys.
legendary
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What are the stamps that you used for those devices, as there are so many different stamp types with different dimensions?
 
I believed the stamps are alphabetically design with the numeric figures. Yes of course, they are all design according to the plate size with different dimensions. Though I have not seen but I am trying to view it from of names on iron frame in school which I have seen. And the stamps are just like the same design with the washer stamps.
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