Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 6.

fillippone

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Quote from: Synchronice on July 20, 2023, 07:23:27 AM

Quote from: m2017 on May 26, 2023, 11:44:08 AM

Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.

What if we assume that 3D printers log the data of what you have printed?

You should assume the printer knows what you are printing.
Note that you are not printing the seed, just a Jig.
The attacker would know you printed a jig to stamp washers with a seed phrase but would have no access to the seed itself.
As far as my own experiment, I bought the two jigs, and I am pretty sure the ones who printed me those objects had no idea of what they were doing.
So in case the attacker would beat them, not me.

Synchronice

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Quote from: m2017 on May 26, 2023, 11:44:08 AM

Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.

What if we assume that 3D printers log the data of what you have printed?

Quote from: fillippone on July 19, 2023, 04:50:02 PM

Quote from: Cricktor on July 19, 2023, 04:26:24 PM

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

Very possible scenario.
This also entails the choice of the degree of knowledge your better half should have about your stashing habits.
So many choices...so many trade-offs.
Nobody said financial self-sovereignty were easy.

I think that one good way to hide seed phrases is to paint the wall with white anti-mold paint, then draw seed phrases with black paint, then use the paint sealer, then buy some nice wallpapers and install wallpapers yourself. While I probably wouldn't 100% depend on that method, it still looks nice and fun but still, I prefer memorizing and repeating of 12 words seed phrase to seal it in brain, that's the most brutal method out there with the highest pros and cons Cheesy

m2017

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Quote from: Cricktor on July 19, 2023, 04:26:24 PM

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

Really? Darling can't clean up the mess in her room, let alone the garage.

Quote from: fillippone on July 19, 2023, 04:50:02 PM

Quote from: Cricktor on July 19, 2023, 04:26:24 PM

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

Very possible scenario.
This also entails the choice of the degree of knowledge your better half should have about your stashing habits.
So many choices...so many trade-offs.
Nobody said financial self-sovereignty were easy.

On the other side of financial independence lies financial responsibility, expressed in ensuring the safe storage of financial assets.

Quote from: dkbit98 on July 18, 2023, 10:59:19 AM

~snip

Quote from: satscraper on July 18, 2023, 07:55:30 AM

I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.

Detectors can easily be tricked with decoy junk, and there are some materials that makes anything almost invisible for metal detectors, if you know what you are doing.

~snip

Deceive with garbage from various metals? You have not seen what remains after these diggers: bare earth without grains of metal. Skilful and experienced seekers will find everything in the soil, down to the last paper clip. Therefore, burying a seed-container according to Jameson Lopp's method, in a public place, is not such a good solution. If random searchers with a metal detector wander into that place, then seed phrases can be found. Neither the depth of the burrow (unless you dig deeper) nor the metall debris around will stop them. But the use of invisible materials is already an interesting solution that should be developed. The main thing is that it is resistant to the external environment, just like metal (stainless) or close to it.

fillippone

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Quote from: Cricktor on July 19, 2023, 04:26:24 PM

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

Very possible scenario.
This also entails the choice of the degree of knowledge your better half should have about your stashing habits.
So many choices...so many trade-offs.
Nobody said financial self-sovereignty were easy.

Cricktor

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Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

dkbit98

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Quote from: fillippone on July 15, 2023, 05:00:54 PM

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

He is security expert who really thinks well before doing something for improving security for his Bitcoin.
I personally wouldn't choose to bury anything like he did, but there are plenty of other options we can choose, and I like stealth option more.
There is nothing wrong in combination of different methods, especially for people who are using multisig setup.

Quote from: satscraper on July 18, 2023, 07:55:30 AM

I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.

Detectors can easily be tricked with decoy junk, and there are some materials that makes anything almost invisible for metal detectors, if you know what you are doing.

Quote from: fillippone on July 18, 2023, 08:24:29 AM

Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?

He probably wouldn't do it, unless he gets amnesia, but there is a good chance his family members could do that.

fillippone

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Quote from: LoyceV on July 18, 2023, 08:46:38 AM

Quote from: fillippone on July 18, 2023, 08:24:29 AM

Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?

Some people never throw anything away Wink

That only works if you don't buy too much unnecessary stuff, otherwise you'll turn into a hoarder. I'd say a box in a garage is a good place, usually those places store decades worth of items that "may come in handy some day", so it doesn't stand out.

Yeah, of course if you are Marie Kondo, such a box would be a very bad place to hide something, while I know people never throw anything (I say anything) away because “it’s a memory of something good and I want to keep it”.

Again, security is extremely personal!

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Quote from: fillippone on July 18, 2023, 08:24:29 AM

Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?

Some people never throw anything away Wink

That only works if you don't buy too much unnecessary stuff, otherwise you'll turn into a hoarder. I'd say a box in a garage is a good place, usually those places store decades worth of items that "may come in handy some day", so it doesn't stand out.

The biggest risk is probably someone going through old junk looking for a few washers to fit something.

fillippone

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Quote from: satscraper on July 18, 2023, 07:55:30 AM

Quote from: fillippone on July 15, 2023, 05:00:54 PM

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.

My own seed is safely stashed away in a box located in the garage, where it blends among numerous boxes, all full with abundance of washes.

Every setup has pro and cons.

Firstly, in the article is explained how to dig your seed deep enough not to be exploited by a metal detector (and also is explained that you should bury it somewhere not beaten by that class of lobbyist)

Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?

Just to say the security mix is peculiar for each of us.

satscraper

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Quote from: fillippone on July 15, 2023, 05:00:54 PM

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.

My own seed is safely stashed away in a box located in the garage, where it blends among numerous boxes, all full with abundance of washes.

LoyceV

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Quote from: fillippone on July 15, 2023, 05:00:54 PM

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

Now I'm curious how it will look like after 10,000 years, when archaeologists dig up someone's old Bitcoin seed phrase (by then worth a mansion on another planet). I expect the plastic to become brittle within a few centuries, and eventually start falling apart. The stainless steel might last longer.

Quote from: Cricktor on July 16, 2023, 07:22:20 AM

You can still draw an analog map like the old pirates did. Treasure maps are fun! Geo cache, anyone? (The last: I'm obviously joking, but hey...)

The problem is, I live in the Netherlands. Every square cm is cultivated.

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Quote from: m2017 on July 16, 2023, 02:58:57 AM

...
And how about writing down the gps coordinates of the location of the buried container? To facilitate future searches for myself (or heirs). Should do this or turn on paranoid mode and not record the location coordinates?

Let's visit the Paranoia Club, I heard they have some new fancy cocktails to serve. Grin

Can you rely on your GPS device to show you non-spoofed or altered coordinates? We've seen this in some areas in times of trouble. As GPS accuracy varies, you don't get such precise coordinates for others to find your treasure easily if that's necessary. But of course it's better than having nothing. Analog offline recording of the GPS coordinates is likely key here.

Taking a picture of your site is like digital processing your treasure's location with digital devices. You likely end up storing such information on some device that gets online and from that point your treasure's safety might become compromised. You can use some hopefully not changing landmarks and some offline tools and measures to pinpoint your treasure's location good enough so recovery for you or your beloved ones is possible.

You can still draw an analog map like the old pirates did. Treasure maps are fun! Geo cache, anyone? (The last: I'm obviously joking, but hey...)

m2017

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Quote from: fillippone on July 15, 2023, 05:00:54 PM

Jameson Lopp, who worked as inspiration for this guide, published an interesting blog post:

How to Bury a Bitcoin Seed Phrase Backup

Quote

Lessons learned from a multi-year experiment with burying a metal seed phrase bitcoin backup.

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

The project was extremely successful as he stated in this long post!
A lot of lessons were learned here!

Indeed, the container from PVC sewer fittings, parts of which were purchased from a nearby hardware store, looks amazing. Surprisingly affordable, cheap, quite strong and reliable, capable of protecting seed phrases from the influence of an aggressive environment, and also not attracting too much attention when buying components of a future container. Also, easy to make.

But I'd rather make some changes. Instead of a credit card-sized plate, I would use stainless steel washers popular in this topic, fastened together with a rod and bolted on both sides. And already this design, I would put it in a PVC container, selected by size. This would reduce the overall dimensions. But this is a matter of taste, so to speak.

"I did not leave any physical markings when I buried my backup. Nor did I create a map to find it. This would have been a very poor inheritance plan, as no one but myself knew about this little project." - Jameson Lopp wrote in the same article.

And how about writing down the gps coordinates of the location of the buried container? To facilitate future searches for myself (or heirs). Should do this or turn on paranoid mode and not record the location coordinates?

fillippone

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Jameson Lopp, who worked as inspiration for this guide, published an interesting blog post:

How to Bury a Bitcoin Seed Phrase Backup

Quote

Lessons learned from a multi-year experiment with burying a metal seed phrase bitcoin backup.

A few years ago he buried a copy of his backup, using 40 USD worth of material from the hardware store, to build a case to hold his seed phrase.

The project was extremely successful as he stated in this long post!
A lot of lessons were learned here!

m2017

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Quote from: hZti on May 07, 2023, 03:42:34 AM

The print files are very useful and would have definitely made it easier for me to create the backup. I think this is the point where I will need to order finally a 3D printer Cool

What are the stamps that you used for those devices, as there are so many different stamp types with different dimensions?

Buy a 3D printer just to create a Seed Backup Jig? Hmm, I guess that would be overkill.

You can print it from friends who have a 3D printer or order printouts of parts in different workshops (people) so that they don't understand what this part is needed for. Of course, the bitcoin text and BTC-logo will need to be removed from the print files (not to print).

In fact, you can do without a jig. You won't be competing in calligraphy with stamps, will you?

As you might guess, the stamps are the most common standard sizes, matched to the dimensions of the washers. With the choice of the ratio of the size of the stamps and washers, well, you should be able to cope. This is a task for schoolboys.

Agbe

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Quote from: hZti on May 07, 2023, 03:42:34 AM

What are the stamps that you used for those devices, as there are so many different stamp types with different dimensions?

I believed the stamps are alphabetically design with the numeric figures. Yes of course, they are all design according to the plate size with different dimensions. Though I have not seen but I am trying to view it from of names on iron frame in school which I have seen. And the stamps are just like the same design with the washer stamps.

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The print files are very useful and would have definitely made it easier for me to create the backup. I think this is the point where I will need to order finally a 3D printer Cool

What are the stamps that you used for those devices, as there are so many different stamp types with different dimensions?

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Quote from: bpkdasbaum on March 28, 2023, 06:06:29 PM

Quote from: AverageGlabella on March 07, 2023, 04:05:17 PM

I do not own a 3d printer can I buy your jig from any where or will I have to buy the cryptocloak jig? I want to use bigger washers and not 25mm which are the only one that cryptocloak support. Only $10 for the jig is a good price and I do not think I can make one cheaper then that because I would need to use a company to print the jig.

I can make you a Seed Backup Jig in any size. Visit my shop here and message me your exact specifications that you want:

https://www.etsy.com/shop/BaumCrypto

Click me title=Click me for more high res picture

Worldwide free shipping.

Anyone can do that for free, since I posted the OpenSCAD source code for such a parametric jig...

Maybe not as pretty, but functional nonetheless and free.

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Quote from: fillippone on May 03, 2023, 06:32:24 PM

This is the point.
What is this second seed for?
Why do you need to complicate things, exposing your seeds, or part of it if you already have one securely stored away?

As I said one seed is secured very well and the other one is more accessible. I would never just keep one copy of my seed phrase. This seems enough, but actually after being in bitcoin for 10 years I noticed that at some point maybe you loose interest in bitcoin for some years and forget about your seeds. Maybe you move and don’t have the time to hide it very well in the new home etc.
to me it is a good option to mix it up and I think I will do that just for the fun Cheesy

m2017

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Quote from: Agbe on May 04, 2023, 09:32:52 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on March 29, 2023, 04:44:09 AM

Quoting for the image to show up:

Quote from: bpkdasbaum on March 28, 2023, 06:06:29 PM

https://www.etsy.com/shop/BaumCrypto

I wanted to report your post (advertising isn't allowed), but it actually looks good and fits the topic. If you accept Bitcoin, you should create a topic on the Goods board.

washer plate would be one of the best storage object of seed phrase, but to keep it safe is anothet thing. Because you have to keep it where children will not reach and use it to play and lost the plates. So I will also advise to store the phrase in another object preferably copy out and safe it in place that is secured.
Now my question is when the seed phrase is written on the washers and when you place it in the washers stand or there about, and the when you want to use it, won't you forget the words in the sequentialal order? Because of thing I am trying to understand from the washer is the words are written and placed on the Bible randomly. Because one washer plate can contain two to three words or is it that one place for one won't?

What problems can be with the storage of washers? This is one of the universal ways in terms of protection from the negative effects of the external environment.

Who in their right mind would keep their seed phrase around their kids, or do you think a toy box is a good place for a purse full of cash money?

In which object, for example, would you recommend storing a phrase? Any ideas?

In order not to forget the sequence of words, in what order it should be, you just need to mark each word. That is, assign a serial number. I don't think this could be a problem.

What are you talking about? Understood nothing. First you talk about the washer and then immediately about the Bible.

There are no individual restrictions. If you have big washers, then you can put 2-3 words on one washer. Of course, given enough space for this. But in the version that was proposed in this topic, 1 word can fit on 1 washer (2 words, if limited to the first four letters).

Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 6. (Read 7156 times)