Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 7.

Agbe

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Quote from: LoyceV on March 29, 2023, 04:44:09 AM

Quoting for the image to show up:

Quote from: bpkdasbaum on March 28, 2023, 06:06:29 PM

https://www.etsy.com/shop/BaumCrypto

I wanted to report your post (advertising isn't allowed), but it actually looks good and fits the topic. If you accept Bitcoin, you should create a topic on the Goods board.

washer plate would be one of the best storage object of seed phrase, but to keep it safe is anothet thing. Because you have to keep it where children will not reach and use it to play and lost the plates. So I will also advise to store the phrase in another object preferably copy out and safe it in place that is secured.
Now my question is when the seed phrase is written on the washers and when you place it in the washers stand or there about, and when you want to use it, won't you forget the words in the sequentialal order? Because of thing (plate rearrangement) I am trying to understand from the washer which the words are written and placed on the plate randomly. Because one washer plate can contain two to three words or is it that one place for one word?

fillippone

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Quote from: hZti on May 03, 2023, 03:43:38 PM

The second copy of your seed however may be located in your house and is possibly in a high risk of being stolen/found at some point. Still many people keep that second copy of a seed in their house out of convenience. For that second copy you could potentially use that tactic. But yes this is a specific scenario that may not be valid for every user.

This is the point.
What is this second seed for?
Why do you need to complicate things, exposing your seeds, or part of it if you already have one securely stored away?

hZti

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Magic

Quote from: fillippone on April 30, 2023, 12:22:45 PM

I think this is a horrible idea.
Just remember that keeping things simple is the best way to avoid future disasters.
Putting words in the wrong order add an extremely complicated, yet unnecessary layer of complexity.
Just remember that you are not saving the backup for yourself, but for someone who probably needs to recover your coins quite securely and quickly.

You are right about that, but I was thinking about this scenario: you have one copy of your seed word well secured in a far away bank safe that can not easily reached. This bank vault will however be opened by your family members when you die and there will be no issue for them to use that seed to get to your bitcoins.
The second copy of your seed however may be located in your house and is possibly in a high risk of being stolen/found at some point. Still many people keep that second copy of a seed in their house out of convenience. For that second copy you could potentially use that tactic. But yes this is a specific scenario that may not be valid for every user.

mendace

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Quote from: hZti on April 30, 2023, 05:52:49 AM

It is indeed interesting that the seed could be put in the right order in this short amount of time. Since the words however are all known and not one word was missing (how it usually is) it does not surprise me to much.

Usually you have a 2048^12 chance to find the correct seed which is impossible. Since the 12 words are known you narrow this down to 12^12. Since key generators can usually check a few million keys per second I think you can find the key pretty fast. What interests me is how he could also check which is the correct wallet, since he also needed to check if the wallet contains bitcoin. What kind of software can do that this quickly?

In a brute force attack on the seed of a bitcoin wallet, specialized software generates many random word combinations that could make up the wallet's seed. These combinations are tested one after the other to see if they produce the correct private key that corresponds to the public address of the bitcoin wallet being accessed.

Essentially, the software uses the hashing algorithm used to generate the private key, to calculate the private key corresponding to each of the generated combinations. The corresponding private key is then used to unlock the bitcoin wallet and access the funds.

fillippone

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Quote from: hZti on April 30, 2023, 08:31:36 AM

Could be actually a nice tactic to put the seed words in your storage container in the wrong order.

I think this is a horrible idea.
Just remember that keeping things simple is the best way to avoid future disasters.
Putting words in the wrong order add an extremely complicated, yet unnecessary layer of complexity.
Just remember that you are not saving the backup for yourself, but for someone who probably needs to recover your coins quite securely and quickly.

hZti

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Magic

Quote from: LoyceV on April 30, 2023, 06:50:59 AM

Actually, it's "only" 12!, since you can use each word only once. That's 18613 times less than 12^12.

Yes that’s right! In any case quite impressive to be able to solve this in a few minutes.

Could be actually a nice tactic to put the seed words in your storage container in the wrong order. If you ever need them you will be able to get them in the right order pretty quickly. An attacker that has no computer skills however will take probably several days to perform this task.

LoyceV

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Quote from: hZti on April 30, 2023, 05:52:49 AM

Since the 12 words are known you narrow this down to 12^12.

Actually, it's "only" 12!, since you can use each word only once. That's 18613 times less than 12^12.

Aikidoka

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Quote from: hZti on April 30, 2023, 05:52:49 AM

What interests me is how he could also check which is the correct wallet, since he also needed to check if the wallet contains bitcoin. What kind of software can do that this quickly?

I believe there are software tools available that can check the balance of a Bitcoin wallet by verifying the correctness of the seed phrase. I think it's called "Bitcoin wallet Checker"

These tools can also help identify if a wallet contains any funds or not, In fact it uses blockchain data. However, i would like to add that some people who engage in unauthorized access to accounts may use these types of software tools for malicious purposes such as cracking accounts and so on.

hZti

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It is indeed interesting that the seed could be put in the right order in this short amount of time. Since the words however are all known and not one word was missing (how it usually is) it does not surprise me to much.

Usually you have a 2048^12 chance to find the correct seed which is impossible. Since the 12 words are known you narrow this down to 12^12. Since key generators can usually check a few million keys per second I think you can find the key pretty fast. What interests me is how he could also check which is the correct wallet, since he also needed to check if the wallet contains bitcoin. What kind of software can do that this quickly?

fillippone

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I saw the Twitter thread, and I am puzzled by the speed at which those funds were recovered. I have been told that a critical point was the fact he’s charged the UTXO containing the sats, speeding by several orders of magnitude the balance check.

I am going to investigate on this.

cygan

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Bitcoiner Andrew Fraser has now proven how important it is to keep your 12/24 seed words safe and not to make them visible to anyone (even in a scrambled order).
with the help of his software BTCRecover and his gaming-gpu he was able to hack a seedphrase consisting of 12 words within 25 minutes and collected 0.001BTC as a reward.
but the whole thing had an educational character, because there was the tweet below on which the 12 mixed seed words were shown and the user was curious when the corresponding wallet would be 'swept' - this was to increase the attention of the seed storage again

https://twitter.com/w_s_bitcoin/status/1651025394055749632

and here is the proof of the solved seed, which Andrew then provided in his tweet to the user 'Wicked':

https://twitter.com/dAnconiaMining/status/1651093812444364806
https://mempool.space/address/bc1ql5y3qz7jksm3v5szs2rha9unlqu90ks3fg899r

dkbit98

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Quote from: cygan on April 20, 2023, 01:19:38 AM

the starter kit shown below is available for €149 and comes in a fine box with magnetic closure.

That looks a bit too expensive for my taste, and I saw similar much cheaper offers for stuff like that in Europe including hammer.
Here are few examples I bookmarked before and this can be ordered from England and shipped worldwide, they even have kits with titanium, stainless steel, copper and brass.
Lots of cool Bitcoin related stuff on their website:
https://hooe.io/

PS
I am not advertising/recommending this website, so please do your own research.

fillippone

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 20, 2023, 02:11:35 AM

Quote from: cygan on April 20, 2023, 01:19:38 AM

the starter kit shown below is available for €149

That's a lot of money just to make it look nice. It's not as if you can use it to show off, so I'd rather go for a much cheaper hammer and letters.
Worse than the price is that the seller knows exactly what you need it for, unlike when you buy tools at a hardware store.

We all agree on this.
The main purpose of this guide was actually meant toward OpSec.
The main advantage of this being you don’t leak information about you holding coins to anyone, significantly reducing your threat model.
Invaluable advantage in the future.

LoyceV

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Quote from: m2017 on April 20, 2023, 04:58:56 AM

It's funny, isn't it? It is one thing when it is a hammer for the most ordinary driving of nails and quite another when a hammer is used to engrave the seed-phrase. This is some kind of magic: the hammer instantly becomes "golden" for the buyer. Do their marketers have the philosopher's stone that the alchemists were looking for to turn ~~lead~~ hammer into gold. Cheesy

Marketing has always worked like that. Many specialized shops sell items at several times the price of other shops, but people still buy them. I'm not judging them, it's totally fine. Supply and demand is a free market, and people love to buy "the idea".

m2017

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 20, 2023, 02:11:35 AM

Quote from: cygan on April 20, 2023, 01:19:38 AM

the starter kit shown below is available for €149

That's a lot of money just to make it look nice. It's not as if you can use it to show off, so I'd rather go for a much cheaper hammer and letters.
Worse than the price is that the seller knows exactly what you need it for, unlike when you buy tools at a hardware store.

It's funny, isn't it? It is one thing when it is a hammer for the most ordinary driving of nails and quite another when a hammer is used to engrave the seed-phrase. This is some kind of magic: the hammer instantly becomes "golden" for the buyer. Do their marketers have the philosopher's stone that the alchemists were looking for to turn ~~lead~~ hammer into gold. Cheesy

Such are the simple laws of the market: cunning sellers are trying to cash in on naive buyers.

cygan

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 20, 2023, 02:11:35 AM

Quote from: cygan on April 20, 2023, 01:19:38 AM

the starter kit shown below is available for €149

That's a lot of money just to make it look nice. It's not as if you can use it to show off, so I'd rather go for a much cheaper hammer and letters.
Worse than the price is that the seller knows exactly what you need it for, unlike when you buy tools at a hardware store.

agree with you on both points and would definitely not order it through the seller.
but that's also the thing like e.g. with a ledger purchase - who orders this, has then certainly invested 95% in cryptos and would like to store them on this hw...

LoyceV

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Quote from: cygan on April 20, 2023, 01:19:38 AM

the starter kit shown below is available for €149

That's a lot of money just to make it look nice. It's not as if you can use it to show off, so I'd rather go for a much cheaper hammer and letters.
Worse than the price is that the seller knows exactly what you need it for, unlike when you buy tools at a hardware store.

cygan

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as i wrote in the german thread, there is a startup in germany called SEEDOR that specializes in exactly this type (washers) of seed storage.
in this variant, instead of an anvil, a base plate made of solid stainless steel is used, which is then attached directly under the stamping jig.
the starter kit shown below is available for €149 and comes in a fine box with magnetic closure.

https://www.seedor.io/en

dkbit98

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Quote from: bpkdasbaum on March 28, 2023, 06:06:29 PM

I can make you a Seed Backup Jig in any size. Visit my shop here and message me your exact specifications that you want:

Can you tell me what type of plastic and 3d printing machine you are using?
Nice work and I like you are offering free shipping, but I don't like you are using Etsy that can be very restrictive and easily ban it's users, plus they don't accept Bitcoin payments Roll Eyes

I would create website or blog to offer jigs directly, or you could offer them for BTC in Marketplace section.

vapourminer

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what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?

Quote from: fillippone on June 25, 2022, 01:25:53 PM

Quote from: n0nce on June 25, 2022, 01:08:10 PM

Quote from: fillippone on June 25, 2022, 12:57:04 PM

To be honest those look quite similar to barbell weights, but isn’t a bold the object peeking in the bottom right of the picture? Is that a giant bolt?

Probably the actual barbell. Everything in the picture looks like barbell parts.

Quote from: fillippone on June 25, 2022, 12:57:04 PM

In addition to that, what is the oven story?

He probably had to heat the tools to be able to dent the barbell weights' surface. But I'd really like to see how the words look like; even if it's a single letter.

I have seen those “strongest man” competition where you are supposed to lift spherical stones, turn gigantic tires or stuff like that. News year the prize will be awarded to who will be able to print a seed phrase on those barbell weights!

if youre a VERY good shot with serious ammo i imagine someone with the mad skillz could shoot the 1st 3 letters of the all the seed words into a single large dumbbell weight. and to several while youre at it maybe.

i would try this myself but im not that good a shot.

i mean if youre gonna store seeds like this it would be hella more fun than using a punch set. and come on, fun is where you find it.

edit: i suppose i could mark this as sarcasm, but anyone who knows me.. well i have no comment at this time.

Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 7. (Read 7156 times)