Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 7.

LoyceV

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Quote from: fillippone on February 08, 2023, 08:09:59 AM

Also, apart from resistance to fire, also resistance to physical damage is to be tested: copper is way more malleable than stainless steel if I am not wrong.

You're not wrong, but is this really something to worry about? I've had all kinds of coins in my wallet my entire life, and never ever did any one of them get physically destroyed. I've used metal washers for various applications, and the worst I've seen was surface rust. I've seen surface rust on stainless steel too, but only after prolonged exposure to seawater.

You'll need to put the washer on a train track and have it run over (seriously, don't do this!) to flatten it enough to make it unreadable.

m2017

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Quote from: LoyceMobile on February 03, 2023, 10:29:23 AM

Still, I've never heard of anything searching walls with a metal detector for Bitcoin Wink

The only reason to do that would be to avoid drilling in pipes.
I'm not worried about this. Besides, I'd fill the hole with a screw, which makes it even more obvious there's metal.

New times (and technologies) give rise to new treasure seekers. Wink

Who would have thought that the guy who lost his laptop with btc would want to dig in a garbage dump (I don’t remember his name, but it seems he is from England and still hopes to get permission to excavate the svali from the authorities).

Quote from: Welsh on February 03, 2023, 10:42:31 AM

Quote from: m2017 on February 03, 2023, 02:27:42 AM

In general, as I said, there are a lot of options where and how to hide seed phrase. It all depends on having the right tools and creative ideas.

That's true, but we don't have to be all that creative. Who's going to scan your walls with a metal detector? Even, if they did, and it went off it could be pipes or anything really. There's a ton of metal in my walls. Plus, no one's really going to think of that unless you're a really high target, but most of us aren't targets to that. So, while I like the discussion about creative ideas, I think we should probably keep it to realistic threat levels.

Plus, I'm not convinced by door hinges. I've seen some very poor quality hinges which rust like crazy when exposed to moisture. So, I'd preferably go for something that's resistant to corrosion.

Yes, maybe so, and these fears are from the category of fiction with a very low probability of what will happen. But fires also don't occur every day and in every apartment (the probability of occurrence is also not as high as it seems), but many will prefer refractory metal.

Is it not possible to choose door hinges of the quality and material you need? As I said above, they exist from stainless steel (and other metals as well).

Quote from: fillippone on February 07, 2023, 06:33:18 PM

Quote from: Cricktor on February 07, 2023, 03:51:36 PM

Quote from: alexeyneu on February 03, 2023, 12:05:33 PM

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Brilliant suggestion! Roll Eyes

Well, not really. Corrosion resistance of copper depending on conditions isn't the best compared to stainless steel or titanium and copper's melting point is too close to house fire temperatures. What's the point going the bargain route here?

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.
Why should you use copper? 10$is not that different from the price of the washers.

The issue of corrosion is solved very easily - it is enough to isolate the metal from contact with air. It can be oil, paint or other substance.

fillippone

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Quote from: LoyceV on February 08, 2023, 06:23:18 AM

Quote from: fillippone on February 07, 2023, 06:33:18 PM

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.

Although it's true copper easily corrodes (we have old buildings with copper roofs that are now green), it also forms a protective layer. Plain iron would rust away completely, copper doesn't.
Also, since copper is much softer, it's much easier to use a letter stamp. Stainless steel is quite difficult to dent. I haven't tried, but I can't imagine the (much deeper) letters in copper are hard to read. And even if that's the case after 50 years in the rain, just use some sand paper to remove the green surface and you'll have green letters on a red copper plate.

We need some of the chemists in the thread to test copper stamping.
Also, apart from resistance to fire, also resistance to physical damage is to be tested: copper is way more malleable than stainless steel if I am not wrong.

LoyceV

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Quote from: fillippone on February 07, 2023, 06:33:18 PM

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.

Although it's true copper easily corrodes (we have old buildings with copper roofs that are now green), it also forms a protective layer. Plain iron would rust away completely, copper doesn't.
Also, since copper is much softer, it's much easier to use a letter stamp. Stainless steel is quite difficult to dent. I haven't tried, but I can't imagine the (much deeper) letters in copper are hard to read. And even if that's the case after 50 years in the rain, just use some sand paper to remove the green surface and you'll have green letters on a red copper plate.

fillippone

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Quote from: Cricktor on February 07, 2023, 03:51:36 PM

Quote from: alexeyneu on February 03, 2023, 12:05:33 PM

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Brilliant suggestion! Roll Eyes

Well, not really. Corrosion resistance of copper depending on conditions isn't the best compared to stainless steel or titanium and copper's melting point is too close to house fire temperatures. What's the point going the bargain route here?

I guess the problem here is that copper is very prone to corrosion to the simple contact to air. Corrosion makes stamped lettere difficult to read.
Why should you use copper? 10$is not that different from the price of the washers.

dkbit98

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Quote from: alexeyneu on February 03, 2023, 12:05:33 PM

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Copper is durable metal and you can use it, but stainless steel is better in every way and it's even cheaper than copper if you buy washers in your local shop, they are less than $10.
If copper was better than everyone would use it to make metal backups for Bitcoin, and I only saw one or two products who did that, compared to hundreds of projects that use stainless steel.
FYI Copper melting point is 1981 F (1083 C), and for stainless steel that is 2750 F (1510 C), big difference if fire happens near your metal backup.

Cricktor

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Quote from: alexeyneu on February 03, 2023, 12:05:33 PM

i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Brilliant suggestion! Roll Eyes

Well, not really. Corrosion resistance of copper depending on conditions isn't the best compared to stainless steel or titanium and copper's melting point is too close to house fire temperatures. What's the point going the bargain route here?

alexeyneu

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i better go with stamps for $30 from ali and copper plate from our local shop ($10).

Welsh

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Quote from: m2017 on February 03, 2023, 02:27:42 AM

In general, as I said, there are a lot of options where and how to hide seed phrase. It all depends on having the right tools and creative ideas.

That's true, but we don't have to be all that creative. Who's going to scan your walls with a metal detector? Even, if they did, and it went off it could be pipes or anything really. There's a ton of metal in my walls. Plus, no one's really going to think of that unless you're a really high target, but most of us aren't targets to that. So, while I like the discussion about creative ideas, I think we should probably keep it to realistic threat levels.

Plus, I'm not convinced by door hinges. I've seen some very poor quality hinges which rust like crazy when exposed to moisture. So, I'd preferably go for something that's resistant to corrosion.

LoyceMobile

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Still, I've never heard of anything searching walls with a metal detector for Bitcoin Wink

The only reason to do that would be to avoid drilling in pipes.
I'm not worried about this. Besides, I'd fill the hole with a screw, which makes it even more obvious there's metal.

m2017

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Quote from: LoyceMobile on February 03, 2023, 09:55:14 AM

Quote from: m2017 on February 03, 2023, 02:27:42 AM

But a metal detector will still be able to detect the presence of metal.

When taking about concrete walls, i assumed it's reinforced concrete (which has steel rods in there). So a metal detector will always detect something.

I understand you, but you are missing one small detail. The detectors easily distinguish between iron (with which concrete walls are reinforced) and stainless steel (which your washers or plates will most likely be made of). Therefore, experienced people who know how to use a metal detector without any problems and accurately determine the location of foreign metal in the wall. Unless seed-phrase is applied to a piece of iron, so as not to stand out against the rest of the background, but will be subject to corrosion.

What do I want to say? There are many different factors to consider when choosing how to store seed-phrases and locations. There will always be people who can find hidden places made by other people.

LoyceMobile

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Quote from: m2017 on February 03, 2023, 02:27:42 AM

But a metal detector will still be able to detect the presence of metal.

When taking about concrete walls, i assumed it's reinforced concrete (which has steel rods in there). So a metal detector will always detect something.

m2017

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keep walking, Johnnie

Quote from: LoyceMobile on February 02, 2023, 10:12:32 AM

It's not a bad idea though, a piece of paper behind a door hinge is much easier than stamping 24 words in 12 different hinges.
But I'd rather put it in a hole in concrete, much better fire resistance and less likely for anyone to ever find.

It will be better to store in a hole in concrete than in a doorway. But I think it’s better not on a piece of paper, but in the form of a rod, like cryptosteel capsule or hexagonal stainless steel rod. Drilled a hole and inserted, it's simple. Of course, disguised.

Again, nothing prevents the washers from being hidden in the concrete. You just have to make the hole a little larger in size and it is better to fill the voids with concrete or something similar so that the cavities don't tap out. But a metal detector will still be able to detect the presence of metal. Then the option with a piece of paper turns out to be better, having previously processed it from destruction and placed, for example, in fireproof packaging.

In general, as I said, there are a lot of options where and how to hide seed phrase. It all depends on having the right tools and creative ideas.

fillippone

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This is a very fun idea. Yet, the simplicity, flexibility and security of a bolt with washers is still unbeaten in my opinion.

Speaking of simplicity: I noticed Shiftcrypto sells tamper evident bags:

https://shiftcrypto.shop/en/products/tamper-evident-bags-27/?packagesize=5-bags

dkbit98

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Quote from: n0nce on February 02, 2023, 01:36:10 PM

Something like this, but obviously on the other side.

Make sure to double check if you have the correct side.
I remember guys who worked on my new windows several years ago, they totally screwed everything up and set them up in reversed way, yeah this really happened.

Instead of using this hinges on heavy doors, I would suggest adding them to smaller doors maybe on wardrobe, closet or maybe smaller kitchen or toilet elements.
Nobody will look for seed words in my toilet, right? Cheesy

n0nce

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Quote from: LoyceMobile on February 02, 2023, 10:12:32 AM

It's not a bad idea though, a piece of paper behind a door hinge is much easier than stamping 24 words in 12 different hinges.
But I'd rather put it in a hole in concrete, much better fire resistance and less likely for anyone to ever find.

I thought the idea was to stamp all the words into a single hinge. Or maybe 2 hinges of a door. In total they have 4 individual (hidden) sides, so it would only be 3 words per hinge-part.

Something like this, but obviously on the other side.

Words are supposed to go here.

LoyceMobile

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It's not a bad idea though, a piece of paper behind a door hinge is much easier than stamping 24 words in 12 different hinges.
But I'd rather put it in a hole in concrete, much better fire resistance and less likely for anyone to ever find.

n0nce

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Quote from: NotATether on February 02, 2023, 07:54:37 AM

Quote from: m2017 on February 02, 2023, 03:33:37 AM

Door hinges, as it turned out, are made of nickel, brass, and even stainless steel 304 (easily googled in a well-known chinese store). And also, you can pick up other stainless steel fittings who want to hide the phrase under them. There is a wide field for creativity here.

*Don't try this if the furniture is not yours, obviously, like if you are renting an apartment.

It would probably be restricted to one piece of paper though. Because as you stuff more papers inside a hinge or any other place, really, it starts to get cumbersome to keep all the papers inside without overflowing.

Stuffing is a creative idea; but I believe we're talking about engraving the seed phrase onto the back part of the hinge (that faces the wood).

NotATether

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Quote from: m2017 on February 02, 2023, 03:33:37 AM

Door hinges, as it turned out, are made of nickel, brass, and even stainless steel 304 (easily googled in a well-known chinese store). And also, you can pick up other stainless steel fittings who want to hide the phrase under them. There is a wide field for creativity here.

*Don't try this if the furniture is not yours, obviously, like if you are renting an apartment.

It would probably be restricted to one piece of paper though. Because as you stuff more papers inside a hinge or any other place, really, it starts to get cumbersome to keep all the papers inside without overflowing.

m2017

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keep walking, Johnnie

Quote from: fillippone on February 01, 2023, 05:29:38 PM

Quote from: n0nce on February 01, 2023, 05:02:14 PM

It's a pretty old idea, no? At least I've heard it a couple times before.
Definitely an alternative to washers in terms of acquiring a flat piece of metal at a cheap price, with built-in concealment.

Although I still believe washers to be the most versatile option, as well as more common in a wide variety of materials. I.e. I can get super-high-temp-special-washers, meanwhile it will be much harder to find similarly fire-resistant door hinges.

I guess washers are absolutely a superior choice. Again because they are easily moveable to a different location when needed. What might have you to do in case you need to clear your house in a few minutes?

In the case of door hinges, if they hide seed-phrase on the reverse side, it will not be difficult to quickly remove them if necessary. All you need to do is unscrew a few screws.

In general, the idea is quite interesting. In fact, you can hide seed-phrase in this way in any piece of furniture that uses metal elements.

The challenge, in my opinion, is finding hinges (or other pieces of metal in your furniture) made of quality metal that are resistant to corrosion, shattering, and fire.

Door hinges, as it turned out, are made of nickel, brass, and even stainless steel 304 (easily googled in a well-known chinese store). And also, you can pick up other stainless steel fittings who want to hide the phrase under them. There is a wide field for creativity here.

Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 7. (Read 5896 times)