Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 2. (Read 6990 times)

The bank doesn't have access to your safe deposit box.
They can access it only with an order from the judiciary power (an executive order by a judge).
They have materially no access to it (they need a blacksmith to open it, as they don't have your key).
This is the point of a safe deposit box.
Hopefully, you can prepare in advance for such an order.

Fire protection is one of the reasons for using washers (washers made of refractory stainless steel - the melting point is higher, than in a fire).

This is a completely bad decision to store the seed phrase (entirely) in a safe deposit box. The bank (their employees) are people who are strangers to you, but at the same time have access to your safe deposit box. If you store the seed phrase in a safe deposit box, then divide it into parts and in different banks.

Firstly, washers is not for transportation with you to airports (but for long-term storage in one safe place). To do this, use hardware wallets.

Secondly, what’s stopping you from making seed washers on something other than metal (plastic, fiberglass, and anything else that can’t be detected by x-ray), if you want to carry it with you to different countries?

Under these pretexts they can check the personal belongings of anyone, which makes the question “why carry seed washers with you?” even more relevant.

There are no universal solutions to get rid of any problem. Seed washers is not intended to be carried and taken for X-rays at airports. Metal washers is a good and effective way to store seed phrases, but in a secluded place for many years.

Don't take washers with you on travel and everything will be fine.

storing a seed phrase with washers has very few benefits unless you think that youir house is going to burn down. but if you thought that you could just store a separate copy of your seed phrase ON PAPER in a bank deposit box or someplace else. if you ever have to travel and bring things with you then you might be screwed if the TSA needs to inspect that strange looking device with a bunch of washers on it that showed up in the x-ray machine because it is metal. they might think it is an explosive device or a silencer for a gun or maybe it is got cocaine in it. at the very least, they might take it apart and inspect it more closely and in doing so they will know your seed phrase. then they will ask you what it is. and if you tell them what it is then you just told them how to take all your money.

what someone thinks is a rock solid indestructible way to store their seed phrase could become a serious liability too.

I don't care. I would use a printer on a public network for back-up.

What is the next big thing that is gonna drive mods insane because they can't let it walk out the door?

You get rate limited if you try to spread joy. Make a paper wallet.

Based on physics, every bit of shock absorption makes the hammer less efficient. Just test it: if it works, it works. Or just hit the hammer a bit harder.

If I wouldn't have a heavy vice, I'd use the edge of a table, right above the leg.

Will the rubber from a tractor wheel be hard enough? I meant rubber of this type (firmness and elasticity), not soft. There is no need to cut a piece of rubber from the wheel of a tractor working at a nearby construction site , because can look for material with similar parameters in a hardware store (or in grandma’s pantry \ grandfather's workshop).

Try placing a piece of rubber (with a balance of elasticity and hardness) between the wood and the floor and your floor will not be damaged.


I just wanted to say that it’s high time you offered BitJig for sale, but it turns out that your website already has a “shop” tab.



This is an affordable alternative for those who don't have a 3D printer (who would buy 3D printer for the sake of printing only 1 Jig?).

Available for free download, if anybody wants to try it:

https://hideyourkeys.io/product/bitjig-lite/



I have also upgraded the design of the regular BitJig, for M6 and M8 washers, I made it a bit thinner and easier to grab:

I tried this, in fact I created some TPU discs and glued them inside the BitJig, but the results were worse, that was my first approach and I switched to the "all-hard-materials" approach


It is JUST like this, the harder the surface, the better results you get



Wood is not bad, I am currently using a 4mm-thick small metal plate that I had. I place the BitJig on top of that, and then I place everything on the floor, or a plastic board (I could use the floor directly, but just to make sure that the nut does not make small marks on the floor). I have also tried without the plate, and the results are quite good as well (in fact that plate is ready to be thrown away, it's just scrap I had, I still use it so I don't mark the plastic boards).



I'd say the results are "good enough" with one set of stamps, the words have to be readable, as long as you can read them the do not have to be super deeply engraved (imho). Just like in the video, or maybe a bit more, but as long as they are readable I am fine with it.

The rubber will indeed absorb part of the kinetic energy from the hammer, which means there's less energy remaining to stamp a letter into the washer. The harder the surface under the washer, the better you can stamp.

What if add a round piece of rubber (you will need to select the appropriate thickness and elasticity) between the metal base and the washer (between metal and metal)? To reduce the ringing of metal on metal and reduce the load on the base due to the elasticity of rubber and the ability to absorb the kinetic energy of a hammer blow.

It is better to place it on a hard surface, such as a concrete floor or thick wooden surfaces (for example, a block), but place a thick piece of rubber (should not be soft) between the Jig and the surface, which will avoid damaging the surface and creates less noise, and also absorbs energy upon impact that would be transferred to the surface.

In my opinion, the best surface option for placing the ig is wood (a block - due to the structure of wood, which has its elasticity and sufficient hardness), on the bottom of which a piece of non-elastic rubber will be glued, which will allow to place it on any surface without damaging it or creating noise, as if you had a team of construction workers.

You meant to say a little deeper, right? Because stainless steel is not easy to engrave with stamps (thin and not deep lines of letters). If turn on the paranoid , then a thin and shallow font is more easily destroyed and loses readability


The tip of the engraver/stamp has a “\/” shape (clearly visible in the figure), but due to the hardness of the washer it cannot penetrate deeper into the metal and make the text better readable. Therefore, you can use a file/grinding stone and sharpen the ends of the engravers to make them a little wider (“\_/”), which will allow you to make characters with wider lines.

Nuances:
You will need a 2nd set of stamps and use the 2nd set after applying the 1st set. First, a garver with a thin end - the 1st blow ("\/") is used, and for the second blow it is used with a wider one ("\_/").

Thanks for the feedback mate, you are totally right about the hard surface at the base, in fact I had quite a few problems with this. Currently, I am working on two options.

The first one, which I called BitJig, has a steel disc glued inside, and also a nut on the base, so all contact is metal-metal-metal (washer-disc-nut). The first prototypes did break, but I made many improvements over time, and now they don't. You can check the other video I posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWVvvpQr304

The first prototypes did break because I was placing them on a relatively "soft" surface, like a carpet, or things like that, to reduce the noise, but that should not be done at all! because the base might break. The latest units work quite well, I have reused some of them for around 10 seedphrases sets (I gift many to friends and family), and they do not show any sign of rupture. I do place them on top of a hard surface when engraving the words, such as a concrete or ceramic floor (even on top of a hard kitchen plastic board). Note that in the video, I only hit each letter once, and the jig was on top of a blue mat which is relatively soft (but it looked great on camera   ), when engraving the words on top of a hard surface, the results are better. Also hitting each letter hard twice engraves them deeper.

These would be the BitJIg and BitJig mini renders (there are some pics in the previous pages):



The second approach, which is the one I am working on, is to release a free model (the one from these recent pictures). This jig would be easier to grab than the blockmit (the original one you can find online, it is not bad, but I did not like it much when I used it, so I designed my own ones), and easier to stamp, but less complex, so anybody with a 3D-printer could try it. With regards to this one, I was thinking about gluing a thick steel disc at the base, of 5cm diameter approximately, but I am not sure if that extra complexity is worth it, the blockmit is used with an anvil so I guess it might not be necessary... This one cannot fix the washer as the BitJig does, as it would lack the "grabbing mechanism".

Also in the future I might substitute the BitJig base by a CNC'd one, I have some prototypes already, but we'll see, step by step  

Ideally, the lower part should be made entirely of metal (in principle, if you have the tools and skills, not necessarily yours, but the craftsmen’s, you can carve it from an iron blank or melt a mold from fusible metals, such as tin or lead^*, if ot don't turn out to be too soft to impacts hammer), then an anvil is not necessary.

^* - can melt a mold even from non-ferrous metals (brass, bronze), but it will be more difficult due to high melting temperatures.

Have you already tested this wonderful device? Will the lower part under the puck begin to collapse from impacts? Keep in mind that stainless steel washers (as opposed to aluminum) have a fairly high hardness (approximately 353 MPa) and the applied force must be at a high level in order for the text to print well.

I also printed a quick prototype, to check if everything fits.

I have been thinking about launching a free jig for people who have 3D printers and already have metal stamps, as an additional resource.

It won't be as complex as the Bitjig, and it won't require additional parts (the Bitjig has a steel disc, screws, etc.). For this case, an anvil would be needed, but the design seems much easier to grab than the Blockmit (I've only made the design for 24mm washers, but I want to make it for 18mm washers as well). It's a preliminary design, but maybe we could consider integrating the anvil by purchasing a steel disc. For now, this is how it stands.

I would like to know if you guys like the design, here is a render:

Part of why I stamped my washers is that if something happens to me, my relevant one(s) can retrieve my precious sats.
Of course, this involves some trust.
But I sleep better thinking that the precious satoshis aren't going to be gifted to all of you as added disinflation.
Also, I sleep better knowing that my trust doesn't steal the funds from me (yet, I do a yearly on-chain and off-chain check).
Sorry if I am selfish toward my loved ones.

I will not be. I trust my own gut.   I take to binary like a duck to water.


In my view this is disadvantage rather than benefit.  



Sure, I don't think that  mentally slow generation is what is going to happen next  

Don’t be your own enemy.
One key benefit of such solution is the fact they can be easily interpreted by others.
KISS principle is the reason why we are stamping washers in the first place.
Stamping binary only raises the bar for securing the generational wealth.
Just remember this is not for short term self custody, but for long term inheritance. The person receiving the washers must be able to understand what they are.

I meant the error correction you get with words: if you misspell abandon, it's still pretty clear you mean abandon. But if you misspell 10111111110, there's no way of knowing other than carefully checking.

I've seen topics from people who lost their crypto because they made multiple mistakes writing down private keys. But you're right: it can be done. At least try to recover your seed from scratch before funding (which is good practice to do with any backup anyway).

Nope, the order of washers  (i.e the order of words) can be marked by daps on washers' ribs. BIP 39 "error correction" is the responsibility of  last word, thus such function is preserved as long as  the relevant washer is  on the bolt .


 I have such washers, they are very easy to make without any "typo" as well as to decrypt. But sure, this method is not  for clumsy hands, i.e not for those, who can make "typo" at very simple doing.

Check twice!

The drawback: you lose the "error correction" you get when using words. A binary "typo" won't be very obvious to detect.