Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 3. (Read 6990 times)

Still I would advocate washers holding binary code of  numerical order of relevant word in BIP39 list. Such washer would look like this.


(a washer containing the word "sausage" -  decimal  numerical order is  1534, in binary representation - 10111111110. The numbers near the edge of the washer are placed in the figure only for guidance in the position of the bits. The vertical is the marking reference.)

The benefits - such washers are easy to stamp ( as the single  center punch is needed instead of multiple bits with letters), and their purpose are not so obvious for others.

Very good result! Congrats!
I liked the fact that you didn't have to use an anvil.

Wow very nice.
That is a serious jig.
I like the mechanism that holds the washer in place. I had to apply a scotch on the bottom of the jig, but you improved this by far, as the washers apparently aren't moving.
Well done.

I made a video, so the curious ones can check the results, and the whole process:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWVvvpQr304

Notice that I only struck each letter once, and didn't apply much force, for other washers I have tested the letters and numbers are engraved at a deeper level (if you hit them harder, of course)

Thanks for your feedback! I would love to give you the .STL files so you can try it, but that would be a risk as the files might spread all over the internet. Let me explain my thoughts:

The target is to get enough visibility, scale the project and if this jig "gets known" after some time, sell the mechanized one in CNC at a reasonable cost, and then release the .STL files for the basic version (therefore the official one in metal could be purchased, and the one in plastic could be made with a 3D printer + buying a steel disc a certain diameter and thickness, which are quite affordable). This would be a similar approach with blockstream Jade for instance, which is a HW that can be purchased officially, but the firmware is OS and you can flash it on many ESP32 boards.

In the meantime... if you live in Europe I can send one to you for free, so you can test it    (you do not have to give a real name, and it could be sent to an InPost locker, so no real address is needed). At the bottom of the webpage you can see the TG, mail, etc... to contact ( https://hideyourkeys.io/ ), or send me a DM here

Looks really good, you did a great job with the modeling and I love your innovation that removes the need of an anvil!

I'd like to print the STL and try it for myself, to be honest, since I made my own open-source, customizable steel washer backup jig back in 2021:
n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig (customisable)

It is much simpler than what you made, but people can get an STL for any washer size (metric, imperial, any size, any thickness).

As LoyceV said, there is a threaded piece inside, which allows you to secure the washer. That piece has an inner diameter, which is slightly smaller than the washer's diameter, so it locks the washer when the jig is fully rotated to the lock position. In order to introduce the washer (which has a larger diameter as we already know), it is possible because this threaded piece which "clamps" the washer, has several lateral "gaps" which provide a slightly larger diameter than the washer. Therefore it can be introduced if the washer is rotated vertically and introduced through the gaps when the jig is at the fully "unlocked" position (pictures on pages 4-5 of the manual might help you visualize it). Tolerances are quite tight though, there were a few iterations before it was good enough...

We got a review last week from a substacker who wanted to test it, you can check the 4th image, which shows it better (it is in Spanish though, but you can translate it)

https://cryptosecurity.substack.com/p/hide-your-keys

Exactly.
Still, I don't understand how it is clamped, avoiding unwarranted movements.
I don't know if it is an industrial secret,  but it would be nice to know more.
I guess this is one of the most critical aspects for a good jig.

From Stamping JIg Instructions Manual:
I assume there's some thread inside to "clamp" the washer in place, but I can't envision how that works since the washer fits through the hole of the base that moves down.

I think it is a very good work.
The only point I do not understand in your Jig is how the washer is fixed in the correct position and what prevents it from moving after each letter is stamped.
This is what I found more difficult to prevent, and this is why I used scotch tape to fix it.

With the anvil and the tape, the results should be good enough imho.

This is the Jig with the CNC base:



This is the whole jig:



I have photos of the regular jig at the web, and the product manual shows how to use it:

https://hideyourkeys.io/product/stamping-jigs-manual/

Suggestions are always welcome

P.S: I reuploaded the pics of my other post, check the M6 variant as well, I think that one is a very interesting solution

This was my case, and luckily I was able to use it without too much hassle securing the washer with some tape on the base.

A CNC-cut aluminum base is cool anyway: can you share a few pictures?

I do agree: that it's overkill, but it might be fun to use it!

In my case, with regards to the base, it has a hole so you can place a metal nut, therefore the washers are placed on top of a steel disc which is on top of a nut, so it withstands the strikes quite well.

I also made a CNC'd base, in anodized aluminum, which is solid, and that will not break for sure. That one is not for sale even though I sent out some prototypes (to testers and customers), but I am not sure if it is worth it if the regular one with the nut works fine as well.


If you use a jig without a base, and you have an anvil, that should work fine(ofc you will not break the anvil), but in my case I was trying to get rid of the anvil. The solution I made works well on top of a kitchen wooden board, or even these thick kitchen plastic boards for example. Back when I was using the blockmit jig, I did not have an anvil, and even when I got one, the inner part flew after every strike (I did not use tape though). The solution with the anvil, I am sure it works fine, but you need many "ancillary" items, and I was focusing on something "simpler" or "cleaner" I guess.

I am not that familiar with such an anvil.
The main point is that you should recycle what you get in your tools shed in order to minimise the footprint of your purchases and the associated privacy leak.
Vise anvil, standard anvil, sturdy metal base, whatever works for you.

but why vise anvil is not capable on this? not 30kg at least

I totally agree.
While stamping, a big part of the process is keeping everything in the right place. I bought a small anvil, and I think it was enough. But of course, a bigger one would have done no harm.


The jig I used was basically without any base, and I fixed the washer with simple scotch to the jig base. I have a sense that having a base would cause irreparable damage to the bottom of the jig.
Do you reckon the is not the case and that the whole jig is sturdy enough to sustain such mechanical stress?

From my own experience from stamping mnemonic recovery words into washers I find it crucial to have a sturdy, solid, heavy and non-flexing base where the washers are placed on. So I wouldn't recommend to avoid using an anvil or some big enough solid block of scrap metal with some suitable flat surface(s). The heavier, the better...

You want to have enough mass and thus inertia that your hammer stroke energy doesn't dissipate to move or flex stuff around, except for the stamp tool letter to dig into the washer. Any flexing dissipates stroke power to wrong places.

Personally, I didn't find the need for a jig. My preference was to avoid having to buy stuff and ship it to my address that would reveal any needs for Bitcoin related storage (I don't have a 3D printer or an "anonymous" delivery address, I'd have at least to reveal my real name for any of my alternatives to my home address).

What did I use? An old hefty anvil (had it already), double sided thin sticky tape to hold the washer in place, eyeballed positioning of the letter stamp tool and a not too small comfy hammer with which I hardly can miss to hit the stamp tool, some practice to know how much energy to put into a stroke (washers are cheap, no need to avoid some practice). I couldn't care less if some letters weren't aligned perfectly.

None of my fingers were harmed, that's a plus, too. With a heavier hammer you don't need to swing it much around to put decent stroke energy into action. This helps to aim properly and hit only what needs to be hit, not your fingers but the stamp tool.

Hey everyone! this is my first post in the forum, and it's a pity I didn't find this thread sooner...  

I just wanted to express my excitement about the topic of seed stamping on washers, and congratulate the OP @fillippone for his remarkable work on this subject! you have researched a lot indeed.

The point is, I was VERY interested on this topic last year, the blockmit got quite famous in 2020-2021, because it was developed by a spanish guy, and he disclosed it on a podcast which is quite famous, so many people in the local bitcoin community discovered it as well. I wish I had seen this post because it would have saved me maaany hours and mistakes...

Anyway, what happened is the following: I bought the blockmit, and I tried it, but my results were "mediocre", I mean, the words were readable more or less, but some of the letters were not uniformly engraved, I even stroke my thumb TWICE... The central part of the blockmit used to fly away after a hard strike... idk, the idea was good, but I thought it was quite improvable (maybe I did not have the most appropriate tools either, even though I had many).

I wanted to get a new solution on my own, so... over the past year, I've delved deep into this subject, conducting extensive research, and I've got to say, it's been a very  enriching experience. I had already skills on 3D modelling and mechanism design due to my day job, so I decided to get into retail 3D printers (there are some professional ones at my work place, but this is still a hobby, and I wanted to develop it on my own), and decided to design an improved version of the blockmit. There are many variants of the blockmit on the internet, I ended up designing my solution from scratch, and after many trials and errors, and picking many ideas, I got this:

https://youtu.be/FJwL2IVzqLA

I called it the BitJig, here is a render:



And this is a real image:



There were some designs with grabbing mechanisms, and I decided to implement a similar one, I created a base with an inserted metal disc, so you do not need an anvil anymore, some dents to facilitate the grab and release process of the washer, and everything fits tightly. In my opinion the results were far better, this is an example, as you can see you don't have to strike the hammer with that much force (note that there is a hole at the base to place a nut inside, so the washer is placed on top of a thick steel disc, and a nut, to prevent the base from breaking):



The base, apart from being metal reinforced is made of solid PLA+ or ABS, and it withstands the hammer impact quite well. The washers are grabbed tightly and fixed, which facilitates the process a lot.

In the end, I liked it so much that I thought that it could be something "sellable" or "marketable", I was using it by myself, but decided to sell it on ETSY to see if there were people interested, earlier this year. And even more important, I decided to do several derived products, based on HIDING the washers, inside vases, flower pots, and even a fake drain for the garden (I have some more in mind as well)



I had to do a couple rebrandings, but I kept this name (HideYourKeys) in the end.

And... I thought that the ETSY store was fine, but it could be improved, so I designed a website as well (it is my first website, so if you have any feedback or suggestions I would appreciate it)



https://hideyourkeys.io/



And that is pretty much it, I am surprised that there are these many people interested in this kind of seed backup, imho it is the best and cheapest way, I wanted to offer something in a reasonable price range, (below 50€ without the hammer, the same or less than as if you were to buy it in any local store), which could compete with the expensive solutions like cryptotag, billfodl and so on... which double or triple such price or even more (cryptotag thor was 350€...). And I wanted something which was easy to use, with decent results.

I have stamped MANY washers, so I can give many pieces of advice to people who are trying yo engrave the words on washers, I would really love to discuss this topic on the thread because as you can see, I am quite passionate about it.

And... with regards to new ideas, I have been testing many things, for instance:

- brass washers: they are softer and easier to engrave, but they are very expensive compared to steel ones. They have a lower melting point as well...
- new objects to hide the washers in
- I am also investigating a solution that might be even cheaper! I will share the outcome one I see that it is feasible   (I will keep it a secret until then) - This was done already, I called it BitJig Mini, it is a Jig which allows you to engrave M6 washers, far more compact and cheaper. This is a comparison of sizes:



The Jig is slightly smaller, but the inner parts are redesigned to engrave M6 washers. Here you can see some results, same 3mm stamps are used, the letters are closer but perfectly readable imo:



So I am eager to see your thoughts on this,  @fillippone  if you live in Europe I could send you a BitJig so I can get your feedback, I would really appreciate it, as you might notice some issues that I have not, despite my research. You used a better version of the blockmit though, so that explains the better results than what I had.

Looking forward to your thoughts and ideas! (Sorry for my English, I am aware of the fact that it is not perfect)

My vice-with-anvil weighs about 30 kg, and my hammer head for hitting things like this weighs 1 kg. Just don't miss (I was annoyed by the guy in the Youtube video missing the nail quite a few times).

I took the opportunity to look into this video. Let's put the vibration thing aside, because it's more important for people who work a lot with such tools on a daily base. If someone doesn't know what to do with his surplus of money, maybe get a titanium hammer. You could buy a bigger hammer head so you won't miss the letter stamp while still being lighter than a steel hammer. (Ear plugs will be the way cheaper solution if you mind the impact noise.)

By my own experience with stamping washers: the more mass (inertia!) you have where you put the washer on the better it is, ideally an anvil or something similar sufficiently heavy and suitable from the scrap yard. You can even put the anvil on something that isn't too soft but provides some dampening. It's physics, laws of nature, transfer of momentum, the ratio of mass of your hammer and the anvil.

I wouldn't use a wood, rubber or stone hammer to hit a metal stamping tool to imprint metal washers. Use a steel hammer that can transfer enough punch comfortably and allows you to hit the stamping tool with confidence. Have a rigid support surface of way more mass than your hammer where you put the washers on (be it an anvil or some heavy (cubish) block of metal from the scrap yard).