Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 5. (Read 7319 times)

The preferences of each person who practices it may differ regarding the sound produced during the washer stamping process. fillippone was not bothered by the sound during the process, while I felt a little annoying noise during the stamping process, so I used earplugs to reduce the noise.

Wooden or rubber mallets are not suitable for metal stamping work. I even used a Stone hammer to get more pressure when stamping.

Please try to make backup seed phrases with washer material. At the same time, try using a wooden mallet to find out whether it suits the washer stamping process.

Safety first, any kind of protection for eyes, ears, and face would be very useful.

LOL, apparently it was a typo, the correct one is Gun Shot which produces 140dB in one shot.
Therefore all shooting athletes or those who learn to shoot use earplugs to avoid the sound effects of the Gun Shot.


Regarding the security of the seed phrase that ends with personal security equipment.
Some people are sometimes too sensitive to sounds that are quite annoying especially if they are repeated.

Replacing the hammer with wood or rubber, will only reduce the sound effect slightly, but it will still be felt because of the metal clashing with steel.

This is when a bubble inflated with bubble gum bursts. That's what a “gum shot” is.


In fact, every exposure to sound destroys the “ears,” the resource of which differs from person to person. In the presence of congenital defects and abnormalities, the destruction process occurs faster. Wait, what are we discussing? We're not on a medical forum.
Does the sound of metal hitting metal when engraving text on a plate cause unpleasant sensations and discomfort? Then use instead of a hammer, for example, a wooden mallet or something similar ("rubber" mallet). Also, in a small and enclosed room the unpleasant effect will be felt more.

"Soft" metals, such as aluminum, if used as seed phrase plates, will ring less when struck. This is just a note.

Earplug is a nice addition to the set. Just because.
Even gloves wouldn’t be necessary, but I liked the “full gear experience”.
I am only jealous because I didn't think to protective glasses and, as said, earplugs.


What is a “gum shot”

Generally, a sound with a volume level of 30 dB - 85dB is a safe sound for the human ear.
If the sound produced by the letter knocker is above 85dB in one beat,
it will interfere with hearing, and usually when exposed to noise for too long the ears will ring.

For the record: nobody "gets used to" loud noise. Hearing damage collects over the years, and every exposure to loud sound adds up. It might take years before you realize it's too late.

For some people, they may not need earplugs, especially those who are used to sounds such as factory machines or others.
I use these earplugs because when I stamp the washer with quite a lot of letters & numbers, it disturbs my hearing a little.

And its use is also inspired by the following Cryptotag tutorial video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKgeItLZL-M.
(The Cryptotag Thor starter kit even includes earplugs in the box content packaging: https://cryptotag.io/products/thor-starter-kit/).

My bad, I didn't follow all the links back to the original message.
I confirm the address is valid and sadly empty.
Apparent there are never been any transactions on each of those addresses






I didn't bother adding this as the noise when stamping the washers wasn't very annoying.

I usually give warnings, especially to beginners, to never disclose their seed phrases to the public.

---

The seed is not the BIP39 type but rather a seed phrase I got from Electrum when creating a wallet in the Electrum - Bitcoin Wallet thread I made.


Please test the seed again on Electrum; you will get the same wallet address as mine.

---

Thank You. At least earplugs can reduce the noise when tapping the letters/numbers on the washer.

Of course it is.
The seed phrase is also illegal:



Sorry, I had to try anyway
Very beautiful setup. Love the earplug addition to my "overkill" equipment.

There is no harm in paying attention to the slightest possibility that could happen, such as the nut loosening and falling off the bolt, whether due to vibration, impact or other causes.
Some testing methods for the durability of seed phrase storage media can be tested against heat stress at a specific temperature, water resistance, corrosion resistance, shock resistance, etc. All of this aims to minimize the loss of seed phrase data.

Some Jameson Loop testing:
https://blog.lopp.net/metal-bitcoin-seed-storage-stress-test-iv/

Can someone explain to me why you think your metal backup will be exposed to such an amount of vibrations that you fear the nut may become loose? Come on, that seems nuts to me. You must have some pretty obscure hiding locations for your backups which have vibes of such strength.

Seriously, at most I'd apply some strong Loctite to secure and be good with it. For tamper detection some glitter and hot glue and a picture of the resulting glitter pattern.

Nope, I saw it on Youtube too: given enough vibrations, it still gets loose. If you want to be absolutely certain it doesn't unwrap itself, do what my motorcycle uses on it's axis: drill a hole, and place a split pen through it.

I used Flange bolts and Flange nuts to prevent self-loosening a nut.

---

I have made backup seed phrases using M8 Flat Washer 1.5mm (galvanized iron plate) and 2.0mm (304 Stainless Steel M8 x 24 x 2.0mm).
Here are some of the equipment and results that I have made:


The example seed listed above is only for initial testing, while a backup of the original seed phrase using the washer is stored in the safe box.

If the vibrations of the nuts cause a problem for someone, then you can use one trick: instead of one nut per bolt, tighten two nuts. You will be surprised to see how reliable it will be. Check this out for authenticity sometime.


I agree, the washers probably seem universal due to their form factor, but this also imposes some limitations. But there are still some advantages, one of which I wanted to highlight. This is an opportunity to enclose a stack of washers in a metal capsule tube to provide greater durability and protection from environmental influences, while at the same time providing some camouflage. Although a stack of bolted plates can be placed in a metal box, which will have similar characteristics.

I don't think plates are any harder to find than washers. Everything is publicly available. The choice between a washer or a plate will depend only on individual preferences. In general, systemically, both options are not very different from each other.

I wouldn't say there are perfect solutions. More like an alternative. As for jig, can do without it by showing resourcefulness or patience (without hand tremors ).

That’s right, it’s impossible to protect yourself from “all attack vectors” and have to try to protect yourself from the maximum possible for you.

Very nice.
In my opinion, washers are more ubiquitous than metal plates and may have a final form factor that is easier to conceal.
Yet, your solution is perfect, as it uses commonly available materials and preserves the holder's privacy.
Of course, the weakest link in my guide is the jig, which is necessary for my method, while you found an excellent alternative for those who haven't been able to find one.

Security models are very different as different attack vectors are possible: there isn't a "better solution" for everyone as scenarios are different for everybody. This guide is excellent for those who want to rely on pieces you can find in any hardware store.

.

You need a lot of vibrations for self-loosening a nut. From the tests I've seen, nylon inserts help a bit but given enough vibrations, it'll still get loose. None of this should be a problem for your seed word storage though, unless maybe if you store it on top of your car engine for years.

Not exactly "like this". Only partly. Thanks for the link to this article.

I wouldn't carry the seed phrase plates around as a keychain. Firstly, it is easy to read all the phrases, and secondly, when the structure is connected on both sides and fixed (bolt + nut), it forms a more durable thing. One of the photos from the link above shows that as a result of the crash test, some of the plates were bent. It will be more difficult to bend them in a bunch, although this doesn't directly affect the readability of the text, but it is better to be on the safe side and provide for the possibility of the plates “withstanding” a greater load. As much as possible.


Something like this: on both sides, the holes are tightened with a bolt and nut. The number of plates varies depending on individual preference.

It is advisable to use nuts with a nylon insert to avoid self-loosening (although I doubt that this will happen).

Are you refering to something like this: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/crypto-keys/ ?  This could be another option But of course I reckon you want to do a custom construction and besides, their website is currently down.

Some thoughts about alternative versions of the Seed Phrase Washers prompted me to write this post.

Washers are undoubtedly a good solution, but what other solutions can be found or made?

The simplest (to write seed phrases) shape is a rectangle. You can make (or buy) small plates that can be connected to each other using a ready-made hole (or made yourself) as in the figure below. The size can be selected optionally.


Using several of these plates will allow to reduce the size of a “classic” plate like this one and fit not all 12 / 24 words on 1 plate, but only 4-6 (or less), for example. In one hole there will be a bolt with a nut on a permanent basis, which will hold the stack of “credit cards” together and allow it to be rotated around its axis in order to view the text on the lower plates, and in the second there will be a bolt and nut that fixes it. For greater reliability, you can make 4 holes in the corners and fasten them.


In theory, this method can be used with [100 dots] seed phrase backup for the same purposes - reducing the size of the physical backup, as well as strengthening  the structure due to the presence of several plates that provide additional rigidity and impact resistance. Add to this the fact that if no information is applied to the top plate, the result is a closed structure containing a phrase (in the form of text or dots - it doesn’t matter) inside and inaccessible to prying eyes.

The next option is furniture fittings. A smaller version of the solution above. I'm not sure if there is a stainless steel version, but this design can be selected as a sample and made (given to be made) yourself.


One plate - one word (or two, if applied on both sides). How is this better than washers? And the fact that you don’t need any additional devices, like a Seed Backup Jig.


But I would prefer something similar to this. In the same way, they are connected with 2 bolts and a nut and form a fixed structure + small sizes.


With some imagination (straight hands handmade skills and tools) can come up with different solutions for making physical / metall seed phrase backup.