Topic: Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers - page 5. (Read 6990 times)

Not exactly "like this". Only partly. Thanks for the link to this article.

I wouldn't carry the seed phrase plates around as a keychain. Firstly, it is easy to read all the phrases, and secondly, when the structure is connected on both sides and fixed (bolt + nut), it forms a more durable thing. One of the photos from the link above shows that as a result of the crash test, some of the plates were bent. It will be more difficult to bend them in a bunch, although this doesn't directly affect the readability of the text, but it is better to be on the safe side and provide for the possibility of the plates “withstanding” a greater load. As much as possible.


Something like this: on both sides, the holes are tightened with a bolt and nut. The number of plates varies depending on individual preference.

It is advisable to use nuts with a nylon insert to avoid self-loosening (although I doubt that this will happen).

Are you refering to something like this: https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/reviews/crypto-keys/ ?  This could be another option But of course I reckon you want to do a custom construction and besides, their website is currently down.

Some thoughts about alternative versions of the Seed Phrase Washers prompted me to write this post.

Washers are undoubtedly a good solution, but what other solutions can be found or made?

The simplest (to write seed phrases) shape is a rectangle. You can make (or buy) small plates that can be connected to each other using a ready-made hole (or made yourself) as in the figure below. The size can be selected optionally.


Using several of these plates will allow to reduce the size of a “classic” plate like this one and fit not all 12 / 24 words on 1 plate, but only 4-6 (or less), for example. In one hole there will be a bolt with a nut on a permanent basis, which will hold the stack of “credit cards” together and allow it to be rotated around its axis in order to view the text on the lower plates, and in the second there will be a bolt and nut that fixes it. For greater reliability, you can make 4 holes in the corners and fasten them.


In theory, this method can be used with [100 dots] seed phrase backup for the same purposes - reducing the size of the physical backup, as well as strengthening  the structure due to the presence of several plates that provide additional rigidity and impact resistance. Add to this the fact that if no information is applied to the top plate, the result is a closed structure containing a phrase (in the form of text or dots - it doesn’t matter) inside and inaccessible to prying eyes.

The next option is furniture fittings. A smaller version of the solution above. I'm not sure if there is a stainless steel version, but this design can be selected as a sample and made (given to be made) yourself.


One plate - one word (or two, if applied on both sides). How is this better than washers? And the fact that you don’t need any additional devices, like a Seed Backup Jig.


But I would prefer something similar to this. In the same way, they are connected with 2 bolts and a nut and form a fixed structure + small sizes.


With some imagination (straight hands handmade skills and tools) can come up with different solutions for making physical / metall seed phrase backup.

To the best of my knowledge, all major / popular 3D printer models either ship with or their hardware supports open-source firmware like Marlin or Klipper.

They both do store the 3d model that you want to print (it's a feature), but you can format the SD card afterwards or just delete the file. I don't think they have any hidden 'logs' of models, but since they are open-source everyone can check for themselves.

Marlin also doesn't have any internet access, as far as I know (haven't used it in a while). So there is no uplink to anyone's servers whatsoever, i.e. no risk of anyone knowing what you are printing as long as you own your own 3d printer.

Bottom line though: you don't need any printed jigs. You can just do the washer backup by hand.

I guess no one will ever think that someone has bitcoin wallet and hides seed phrases behind the wallpaper. When you need your backup, you just remove the wallpaper from the wall. If you want to delete your seed phrases, you'll repaint the wall, buy a new wallpaper and continue life.

Depends on the shoe, she will definitely make a drama out of it and will try to get a new one(s) from you because of your mistake When you buy her an expensive shoe(s), she will definitely reconcile with you

By the way, there is no such thing as unused shoes for a man, as women say. For example, tell your wife, who has ten times more shoes than you, that you need to buy a new one and she will quickly reply that you have enough, if anyone needs new shoes, it's her because she hasn't bought them for six months

Rookie mistake.
There is no such thing as ”unused shoes” for a woman.

If I'd do the same to my wife's old, unused shoes, I'm dead
I would expect most couples to know not to throw out each other's stuff without asking.

Good point Or use your manly strength: put 400 kg of crap on top. Or mount the washers (still my favourite). Use them to hang something from the ceiling. If you ever need your backup, you'll be forced to clear out the garage first. That's good against impulsive selling

Then what? When you need your backup, you spray your wall until seed words appear in mold?

You should assume the printer knows what you are printing.
Note that you are not printing the seed, just a Jig.
The attacker would know you printed a jig to stamp washers with a seed phrase but would have no access to the seed itself.
As far as my own experiment, I bought the two jigs, and I am pretty sure the ones who printed me those objects had no idea of what they were doing.
So in case the attacker would beat them, not me.

What if we assume that 3D printers log the data of what you have printed?

I think that one good way to hide seed phrases is to paint the wall with white anti-mold paint, then draw seed phrases with black paint, then use the paint sealer, then buy some nice wallpapers and install wallpapers yourself. While I probably wouldn't 100% depend on that method, it still looks nice and fun but still, I prefer memorizing and repeating of 12 words seed phrase to seal it in brain, that's the most brutal method out there with the highest pros and cons

Really? Darling can't clean up the mess in her room, let alone the garage.

On the other side of financial independence lies financial responsibility, expressed in ensuring the safe storage of financial assets.

Deceive with garbage from various metals? You have not seen what remains after these diggers: bare earth without grains of metal. Skilful and experienced seekers will find everything in the soil, down to the last paper clip. Therefore, burying a seed-container according to Jameson Lopp's method, in a public place, is not such a good solution. If random searchers with a metal detector wander into that place, then seed phrases can be found. Neither the depth of the burrow (unless you dig deeper) nor the metall debris around will stop them. But the use of invisible materials is already an interesting solution that should be developed. The main thing is that it is resistant to the external environment, just like metal (stainless) or close to it.

Very possible scenario.
This also entails the choice of the degree of knowledge your better half should have about your stashing habits.
So many choices...so many trade-offs.
Nobody said financial self-sovereignty were easy.

Lol, it's those days when your relationship will be under stress when your better half surprises you with: Look darling, I cleaned up all the mess in the garage that piled up over the years. ... Darling?

He is security expert who really thinks well before doing something for improving security for his Bitcoin.
I personally wouldn't choose to bury anything like he did, but there are plenty of other options we can choose, and I like stealth option more.
There is nothing wrong in combination of different methods, especially for people who are using multisig setup.

Detectors can easily be tricked with decoy junk, and there are some materials that makes anything almost invisible for metal detectors, if you know what you are doing.

He probably wouldn't do it, unless he gets amnesia, but there is a good chance his family members could do that.
 

Yeah, of course if you are Marie Kondo, such a box would be a very bad place to hide something, while I know people never throw anything (I say anything) away because “it’s a memory of something good and I want to keep it”.

Again, security is extremely personal!

Some people never throw anything away That only works if you don't buy too much unnecessary stuff, otherwise you'll turn into a hoarder. I'd say a box in a garage is a good place, usually those places store decades worth of items that "may come in handy some day", so it doesn't stand out.

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The biggest risk is probably someone going through old junk looking for a few washers to fit something.

Every setup has pro and cons.

Firstly, in the article is explained how to dig your seed deep enough not to be exploited by a metal detector (and also is explained that you should bury it somewhere not beaten by that class of lobbyist)

Secondly what if you throw away your see because it was too week concealed amongst all those boxes?

Just to say the security mix is peculiar for each of us.

I think it's unwise to conceal seed -phrase-inscribed-washers  underground. After all, metal detectors are quite affordable. Folks purchase them and go on fun hunts as a pastime.

My own seed is safely stashed away in a box located in the garage, where it blends among numerous boxes, all full with abundance of washes.

Now I'm curious how it will look like after 10,000 years, when archaeologists dig up someone's old Bitcoin seed phrase (by then worth a mansion on another planet). I expect the plastic to become brittle within a few centuries, and eventually start falling apart. The stainless steel might last longer.

The problem is, I live in the Netherlands. Every square cm is cultivated.

Let's visit the Paranoia Club, I heard they have some new fancy cocktails to serve. 

Can you rely on your GPS device to show you non-spoofed or altered coordinates? We've seen this in some areas in times of trouble. As GPS accuracy varies, you don't get such precise coordinates for others to find your treasure easily if that's necessary. But of course it's better than having nothing. Analog offline recording of the GPS coordinates is likely key here.

Taking a picture of your site is like digital processing your treasure's location with digital devices. You likely end up storing such information on some device that gets online and from that point your treasure's safety might become compromised. You can use some hopefully not changing landmarks and some offline tools and measures to pinpoint your treasure's location good enough so recovery for you or your beloved ones is possible.

You can still draw an analog map like the old pirates did. Treasure maps are fun! Geo cache, anyone? (The last: I'm obviously joking, but hey...)

Indeed, the container from PVC sewer fittings, parts of which were purchased from a nearby hardware store, looks amazing. Surprisingly affordable, cheap, quite strong and reliable, capable of protecting seed phrases from the influence of an aggressive environment, and also not attracting too much attention when buying components of a future container. Also, easy to make.

But I'd rather make some changes. Instead of a credit card-sized plate, I would use stainless steel washers popular in this topic, fastened together with a rod and bolted on both sides. And already this design, I would put it in a PVC container, selected by size. This would reduce the overall dimensions. But this is a matter of taste, so to speak.

"I did not leave any physical markings when I buried my backup. Nor did I create a map to find it. This would have been a very poor inheritance plan, as no one but myself knew about this little project." - Jameson Lopp wrote in the same article.

And how about writing down the gps coordinates of the location of the buried container? To facilitate future searches for myself (or heirs). Should do this or turn on paranoid mode and not record the location coordinates?