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Topic: US Elections 2020 - very self such moderated (Read 4674 times)

copper member
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So aside from this being dangerous I think it's important to talk about the implications of banning the current sitting President, soon to be ex-President.

These are private platforms, and legally-speaking they should be able to do what they want. If the government says that they have to allow X, or must ban Y, then you're giving the government a dangerous level of control over speech. If section 230 is repealed, then you're giving these companies a huge incentive to delete anything even remotely controversial, since they could be held liable otherwise. In either case, you're discouraging competition to the huge companies because you're creating a situation of regulatory capture: big companies are better-able to handle burdensome legal regimes. For example, a few years ago Congress carved out an exception in section 230 for certain sex crimes. As a result, Craigslist had to shut down their dating sections because they didn't have the resources to moderate them strictly enough. Later, Facebook created a dating service, since they have much more resources, and they can deal with the 230 carve-out. Regulations lead to centralization at the top.

If you don't like how these companies do business, then use a different site. There are ways that this is bad/uncomfortable, but the alternative ways of possibly handling it are much worse.

As for the decision to ban this stuff itself: I can see how honest, well-meaning actors at these companies might justify their recent actions. Many of the people who participated in the capitol riot thought that they were doing the right thing, and maybe didn't even realize how much danger they were putting themselves in, but yet a few of them are dead and many of them are going to prison for a long time. People at these companies might reason that too many people are just too susceptible to being manipulated, and at least the top platforms should try to protect them from themselves. The most persistent believers will go elsewhere, and they should have the freedom to do so, but by having the most popular platforms cultivate their communities more, they might actually succeed in reducing the future growth of some of these crazy thought-bubbles.

There is a big risk, however, that this just creates more division. These people can go to Parler, and if Parler is gone from Google Play then they can create their separate app store. It leads down a road of basically splitting the Internet in two, and then we're going to have two almost completely separate cultures of people living amongst each other, which is a dangerous situation. Also, I think you're right in that a big part of their motivation is in appeasing the incoming administration, and these companies do have a history of being very biased. The recent decision by Twitter was clearly them just jumping onto a bandwagon, not a principled decision. IMO they'd be better-off trying to completely redesign the structure of their sites with the goals of 1) making manipulation more difficult and 2) not even giving themselves the opportunity to let their bias affect moderation. It's a difficult problem, though.

Speaking of censorship - any comment on this? https://medium.com/@johnblocke/a-brief-and-incomplete-history-of-censorship-in-r-bitcoin-c85a290fe43
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1285
Flying Hellfish is a Commie
So it turns out when you deleted a post on Parler they did not remove the content. Just marked it as deleted.

It also looks like they KYCed some users and kept the dox online.

OTOH it's ridiculous to call the kids who stole the data "security researchers". They hacked the site just like Equifax or CapitalOne "researchers" did, and they should get a hefty book thrown at them for this vigilante nonsense.

Yep.

https://lifehacker.com/parler-wasnt-hacked-but-that-doesnt-mean-its-safe-to-u-1845757409

They require you to upload a SSN number to get a verified status LOL.

Yeah, I'm just going to download some shady app that probably data mines every input and then give it my SSN so I get a checkmark to my name! Now the app's offline and the SSN's are probably stored in China somewhere.

WAIT WHAT THE FUCK?

THEY REQUIRE YOUR SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER TO GET VERIFIED STATUS? This isn’t a god damn bank with regulatory standards they must adhere to, this is a social media website that could easily weed through ‘real’ and ‘fake’ people.

While I wouldn’t want to provide any information like this, I’d rather send a picture of my ID or something like that. Handing over my SSN is an easy way to lose everything once someone hacks parler and opens up a million credit lines in my name.

Someone should be sounding an alarm right now to not use this app.
legendary
Activity: 2828
Merit: 1515
So it turns out when you deleted a post on Parler they did not remove the content. Just marked it as deleted.

It also looks like they KYCed some users and kept the dox online.

OTOH it's ridiculous to call the kids who stole the data "security researchers". They hacked the site just like Equifax or CapitalOne "researchers" did, and they should get a hefty book thrown at them for this vigilante nonsense.

Yep.

https://lifehacker.com/parler-wasnt-hacked-but-that-doesnt-mean-its-safe-to-u-1845757409

They require you to upload a SSN number to get a verified status LOL.

Yeah, I'm just going to download some shady app that probably data mines every input and then give it my SSN so I get a checkmark to my name! Now the app's offline and the SSN's are probably stored in China somewhere.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
So it turns out when you deleted a post on Parler they did not remove the content. Just marked it as deleted.

It also looks like they KYCed some users and kept the dox online.

OTOH it's ridiculous to call the kids who stole the data "security researchers". They hacked the site just like Equifax or CapitalOne "researchers" did, and they should get a hefty book thrown at them for this vigilante nonsense.
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
So it turns out when you deleted a post on Parler they did not remove the content. Just marked it as deleted.

https://cybernews.com/news/70tb-of-parler-users-messages-videos-and-posts-leaked-by-security-researchers/
https://imgur.com/gallery/oFMaMAI

So now all their users have all their info out in public. That's bad for the users. But if you post anything on the internet expect it to be public and there forever. If you think it's not you are an idiot.

But...I figure the owners / operators are about to get the mother of all lawsuits for privacy violations.
Not to mention the GDPR violations that they are about to spend the rest of their life dealing with.

Sucks to be them.

-Dave
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
The mayoral election of London (albeit nowhere near as important) has been postponed to this year rather than changing the election system itself.

You can't reasonably postpone the presidential election since the term ends on Jan 20 and that's hardcoded in the constitution. Postponing the election to e.g. mid-December wouldn't have solved any pandemic-related issues.

Some states have been voting exclusively by mail for years. Mail voting wasn't an issue until Trump decided to blame it for his loss.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 2617
Having supported Donald Trump till the election day on 3rd November, I have to say with a lot of pain that he is looking like a buffoon now. The left setout a trap for him, and he was stupid enough to fall for it. Even before the elections, there was widespread propaganda in the mainstream media that Trump would resort to violence, if the results go the other way. And now his actions have given justification to those predictions.

Whether there was electoral fraud or not is an entirely different thing. Even before the elections, it was well known that the postal ballot system is not really free from fraudulent practises. Trump should have taken the necessary steps before the elections, rather than whining about it after the elections. Afterall, the SCOTUS had a 5-4 conservative majority and he had a golden opportunity to make sure that voter fraud doesn't happen in the inner city areas. He refused to act before the elections.

And when he lost the elections, he tried to harm his own party. The GOP did exceptionally well in the house elections (gaing at least 15 seats from the Dems) and did somewhat better than expected during the senate elections (by winning senate seats in hotly contested states such as Iowa, Maine, North Carolina and Texas). But then Trump's refusal to help them cost the two senate seats from Georgia.

A peaceful handover would have been the best thing to do, and it could have resulted in GOP getting House/Senate majority by 2022. Trump, as a result of his ego refused to do that and now Democrats have the trifecta power.

"He refused to act before the elections. "

Are you sure that he even had the clout to intervene in how states conduct their elections? Because I believe he doesn't.
He whined plenty of times before the election about the mail in ballot changes.

I think a mass change in election system should definitely have had more debate / scrutiny than it did despite the supposed dangers of voting during a pandemic.

The media seemed to brush over all that as if it was nothing.
You can bet that the Democrats will want to keep the mail in voting, it suits them nicely I reckon. To still compare "turnout" to previous elections seems a bit bizarre when you can just vote whilst scratching your bare ass at home. "Turnout" for what exactly?

Trump made a big mistake encouraging his voters to only go out on election day. Although at the same time I can fully appreciate the "conservative way" to vote is indeed on election day and not just hand your vote to a mailman.

The mayoral election of London (albeit nowhere near as important) has been postponed to this year rather than changing the election system itself.
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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No no no. Their reasoning was complete utter shit and I am taking absolutely nothing out of context.


Twitter's reasoning for the ban:

"We assessed the two Tweets referenced above under our Glorification of Violence policy, which aims to prevent the glorification of violence that could inspire others to replicate violent acts and determined that they were highly likely to encourage and inspire people to replicate the criminal acts that took place at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021."

The cited tweet was Trump saying that he would not attend the inauguration. That is reaching at straws. With how lose the interpretation is, you could tie literally any tweet from a politician as a call for violence. When democrats were whining about the election in 2016 and delegitimizing Trump's victory, I'm sure I could find some tweets that could very loosely encourage violence by bending over backwards in logic the way Twitter is.


Give me a break, read the first two sentences of the post again and then see if you still want to argue that whether or not he planned to attend the inauguration has literally anything to do with why he was banned.  https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspension.html

He used twitter to organize the event that ended up being a violent attack.  They banned him to reduce the chances of another one happening.
legendary
Activity: 2828
Merit: 1515
They banned him because he refused to attend Biden's inauguration. I posted a link to @TwitterSafety earlier where they openly admitted this. Trump did not tell people to go out and be violent, if he did, he deserves the ban.

Context matters. Sure he didn't tell them "go and kill a cop at the Capitol" but he did tell them to go there and disrupt the proceedings and it resulted in violence. It's disingenuous to deny that Trump's rhetoric is inciting violence. And he is not backing down from the underlying false claims of election fraud, which is what encourages his supporters to be violent.

I'm not defending Twitter in any way - I think their whole system is thoroughly fucked since it's basically a trolling platform - but Trump doesn't have any plausible argument in this dispute. If he's too obnoxious even for Twitter that's entirely his problem.

He's responsible for being inflammatory. Absolutely agree on that. There is a fine line of incitement and reckless political rhetoric. Trump has engaged in reckless political rhetoric similar to when Bernie Sanders demonized Republicans causing a staunch supporter of his to go shoot up a baseball field. Lot of people like to wear rose colored glasses when they look back upon Steve Scalise being shot because Bernie Sanders reminds everyone of a grandpa that means well, but taking a quick glance at his Twitter feed - it's clear he is as divisive as it gets. Politics tends to be a zero sum game and it's all about smearing shit on the wall for short term victories. Trump tends to take a bulldozer to the wall most times though so you have a point.

Trump is responsible for raising the temperature and creating tension, but he can't be held responsible unless he was a direct cause of the violence -- meaning he didn't tell people go out and riot, be violent.

Yes, they did - over and over.  Mostly when he was spreading misinformation about the election process and outcome.

Well they sure sound like a publisher when they fact check him over and over again. Regardless, that wasn't the primary reason of the ban. And sure, Trump did spread a lot of unhinged conspiracies that were wildly inappropriate. People do here as well. Doesn't mean I personally think they should be banned. But that is Twitter's choice.

You should click on the link and read the article.  If you already did, it would seem like you're intentionally taking it out of cont

No no no. Their reasoning was complete utter shit and I am taking absolutely nothing out of context.


Twitter's reasoning for the ban:

"We assessed the two Tweets referenced above under our Glorification of Violence policy, which aims to prevent the glorification of violence that could inspire others to replicate violent acts and determined that they were highly likely to encourage and inspire people to replicate the criminal acts that took place at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021."

The cited tweet was Trump saying that he would not attend the inauguration. That is reaching at straws. With how lose the interpretation is, you could tie literally any tweet from a politician as a call for violence. When democrats were whining about the election in 2016 and delegitimizing Trump's victory, I'm sure I could find some tweets that could very loosely encourage violence by bending over backwards in logic the way Twitter is.


Bernie didn't incite violence.  Trump did.  Many times. So, no, I don't think Bernie should be banned from Twitter.  But if Twitter wants to ban Bernie, I think it should be the response of their users they have to worry about, not the government.

And they aren't my rules.  It's basic ethics. Dorsey built twitter and is the current CEO - if someone is using twitter to do something horrible, it's his responsibility to stop them from using twitter.


Bernie didn't incite violence, just talked about how evil Republicans were and how they wanted to kill your grandmother through social security and Medicare cuts.

Setting that all side -- the US is beyond the point of repair and you are not looking at the bigger picture here. Twitter is not doing this because Trump tweets stupid shit. They're doing this because they know democrats control the government and will pressure them into removing Republican presence on social media sites. It's a whole lot easier to win elections when you control forms of online media.

And on this point, silencing people who I disagree with is generally an awful take and it is incredibly decisive. 74+ million voted for Trump, and it's clear Joe Biden/Kamala Harris will not be the unifiers. For some reason, I don't see many people condemning Kamala Harris for when she posted a bailout fund for Minneapolis rioters that were arrested. From what I see, every Republican condemned the violence that occurred this past Wednesday.
legendary
Activity: 3388
Merit: 3514
born once atheist
.... Even before the elections, it was well known that the postal ballot system is not really free from fraudulent practises.....

No it wasn't.    citation needed

That was something repeated and retweeted, by impotus ad infinitum with zero evidence, until all his idiot minions accepted it as fact.
Because they heard it on their twatter, farcebook, instagram feeds, so it must be true.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Having supported Donald Trump till the election day on 3rd November, I have to say with a lot of pain that he is looking like a buffoon now. The left setout a trap for him, and he was stupid enough to fall for it. Even before the elections, there was widespread propaganda in the mainstream media that Trump would resort to violence, if the results go the other way. And now his actions have given justification to those predictions.

Whether there was electoral fraud or not is an entirely different thing. Even before the elections, it was well known that the postal ballot system is not really free from fraudulent practises. Trump should have taken the necessary steps before the elections, rather than whining about it after the elections. Afterall, the SCOTUS had a 5-4 conservative majority and he had a golden opportunity to make sure that voter fraud doesn't happen in the inner city areas. He refused to act before the elections.

And when he lost the elections, he tried to harm his own party. The GOP did exceptionally well in the house elections (gaing at least 15 seats from the Dems) and did somewhat better than expected during the senate elections (by winning senate seats in hotly contested states such as Iowa, Maine, North Carolina and Texas). But then Trump's refusal to help them cost the two senate seats from Georgia.

A peaceful handover would have been the best thing to do, and it could have resulted in GOP getting House/Senate majority by 2022. Trump, as a result of his ego refused to do that and now Democrats have the trifecta power.
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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They didn't even fact check him lol

Yes, they did - over and over.  Mostly when he was spreading misinformation about the election process and outcome.


They banned him because he refused to attend Biden's inauguration. I posted a link to @TwitterSafety earlier where they openly admitted this.

You should click on the link and read the article.  If you already did, it would seem like you're intentionally taking it out of cont


Trump did not tell people to go out and be violent, if he did, he deserves the ban.

Are you really going to play the 'he didn't explicitly say to go be violent'?  That's so lame.

He was responsible for the "Save America/Stop the Steal Rally", scheduled to coincide with congress counting votes.

Then he hyped the event tweeting things like "it will be wild", "the country needs you to fight"

And here's what he told them right before they marched over and stormed the capital:

"And after this, we're going to walk down and I'll be there with you. We're going to walk down--

We're going to walk down. Anyone you want, but I think right here, we're going to walk down to the Capitol--

And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them.

Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong."



If we're playing by your rules, should Bernie Sanders be banned from twitter after demonizing Republicans causing some sick fuck to go out and try and execute the minority whip? There's no way anyone should be defending Trump's ban. Twitter is a private company and can do what it pleases, but I'm not going to pretend like this isn't completely bizarre and deranged. It's also what leftists were begging for over the last 4 years.

Bernie didn't incite violence.  Trump did.  Many times. So, no, I don't think Bernie should be banned from Twitter.  But if Twitter wants to ban Bernie, I think it should be the response of their users they have to worry about, not the government.

And they aren't my rules.  It's basic ethics. Dorsey built twitter and is the current CEO - if someone is using twitter to do something horrible, it's his responsibility to stop them from using twitter.


First it's Trump, then who?

Trump wasn't first, they ban tons of people for violating their terms every day.  They already explained that he would've been banned a while ago if it weren't for the fact that he was president.  Personally I wish they would've held him to the same standards as everyone else.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
They banned him because he refused to attend Biden's inauguration. I posted a link to @TwitterSafety earlier where they openly admitted this. Trump did not tell people to go out and be violent, if he did, he deserves the ban.

Context matters. Sure he didn't tell them "go and kill a cop at the Capitol" but he did tell them to go there and disrupt the proceedings and it resulted in violence. It's disingenuous to deny that Trump's rhetoric is inciting violence. And he is not backing down from the underlying false claims of election fraud, which is what encourages his supporters to be violent.

I'm not defending Twitter in any way - I think their whole system is thoroughly fucked since it's basically a trolling platform - but Trump doesn't have any plausible argument in this dispute. If he's too obnoxious even for Twitter that's entirely his problem.
legendary
Activity: 2828
Merit: 1515
As a society, we should consider if it is acceptable for a company to influence society via the way they moderate their content while being largely unaccountable to citizens.

That's not what's happening though.  Society is holding them accountable, especially since Trump took office.

You just don't like that they fact checked and banned Trump.  Imagine for a second it was someone like Hillary Clinton that got banned from Twitter for inciting a violent mob to storm the Capital to stop congress from certifying Trump as president.  Would you be upset when Twitter banned her?  Of course not.  That's what makes your argument in bad faith.  Step back and look at what you're really saying without Trump in the equation.  It's ridiculous.



They didn't even fact check him lol

They banned him because he refused to attend Biden's inauguration. I posted a link to @TwitterSafety earlier where they openly admitted this. Trump did not tell people to go out and be violent, if he did, he deserves the ban.

If we're playing by your rules, should Bernie Sanders be banned from twitter after demonizing Republicans causing some sick fuck to go out and try and execute the minority whip? There's no way anyone should be defending Trump's ban. Twitter is a private company and can do what it pleases, but I'm not going to pretend like this isn't completely bizarre and deranged. It's also what leftists were begging for over the last 4 years.

First it's Trump, then who?
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
I'm not in any special contact with Trump, his people, Congress or judges. Are you?

Judges tend to make their decisions known quite eloquently so you don't need to be in any special contact with them.

BADecker, you already have a bunch of threads for this BS. Please leave this one.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
If anybody fact-checked Trump and found him wrong, why won't they simply let him present his evidence before Congress?

Are we just pretending dozens of judges heard his boatload of lawsuits and threw them in the garbage due to lack of evidence and/or logic?

You can answer your own question. What are you pretending?

I'm not in any special contact with Trump, his people, Congress or judges. Are you?

If you have been listening to the standard media, and that is where you get your ideas and info, you've been played.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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If anybody fact-checked Trump and found him wrong, why won't they simply let him present his evidence before Congress?

Are we just pretending dozens of judges heard his boatload of lawsuits and threw them in the garbage due to lack of evidence and/or logic?
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
As a society, we should consider if it is acceptable for a company to influence society via the way they moderate their content while being largely unaccountable to citizens.

That's not what's happening though.  Society is holding them accountable, especially since Trump took office.

You just don't like that they fact checked and banned Trump.  Imagine for a second it was someone like Hillary Clinton that got banned from Twitter for inciting a violent mob to storm the Capital to stop congress from certifying Trump as president.  Would you be upset when Twitter banned her?  Of course not.  That's what makes your argument in bad faith.  Step back and look at what you're really saying without Trump in the equation.  It's ridiculous.


If anybody fact-checked Trump and found him wrong, why won't they simply let him present his evidence before Congress? Looks more to me like they found Trump right, and are trying to silence him because... because the truth would be their downfall if it ever came out into the open.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
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As a society, we should consider if it is acceptable for a company to influence society via the way they moderate their content while being largely unaccountable to citizens.

That's not what's happening though.  Society is holding them accountable, especially since Trump took office.

You just don't like that they fact checked and banned Trump.  Imagine for a second it was someone like Hillary Clinton that got banned from Twitter for inciting a violent mob to storm the Capital to stop congress from certifying Trump as president.  Would you be upset when Twitter banned her?  Of course not.  That's what makes your argument in bad faith.  Step back and look at what you're really saying without Trump in the equation.  It's ridiculous.

copper member
Activity: 1652
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So aside from this being dangerous I think it's important to talk about the implications of banning the current sitting President, soon to be ex-President.
section 230
As a society, we should consider if it is acceptable for a company to influence society via the way they moderate their content while being largely unaccountable to citizens.

I don't think 'start a new platform' is sufficient to address the above. Major social media platforms serve as an effective town square and speech at a real town square is protected by the first amendment.

Parler for example is a customer of AWS and Google. There are a very small number of apps that are banned for political reasons and are probably insufficient to get most people except the people with the strongest political ideology to use alternative platforms that are open to these apps.

Changing 230 with regard to what content is removed should be fairly simple. Currently, social media companies can remove content they deem 'objectionable'. The term 'objectionable' is specifically up to individual social media companies. The definition of 'objectionable' could be more narrowly defined to include only a subset of content. Social media companies could also mark content with various labels that individual users can decide to either view or not view. Changing 230 with regard to who gets banned is much more difficult.

BTW, I don't think Craigslist's "dating" subs were really for dating. I think it is more likely that most of the ads were for sex work. Facebook did open their competing dating site, but they also have many competitors that don't have 1% of the resources that Facebook has.
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