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Topic: US Elections 2020 - very self such moderated - page 2. (Read 4674 times)

legendary
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So aside from this being dangerous I think it's important to talk about the implications of banning the current sitting President, soon to be ex-President.

These are private platforms, and legally-speaking they should be able to do what they want. If the government says that they have to allow X, or must ban Y, then you're giving the government a dangerous level of control over speech. If section 230 is repealed, then you're giving these companies a huge incentive to delete anything even remotely controversial, since they could be held liable otherwise. In either case, you're discouraging competition to the huge companies because you're creating a situation of regulatory capture: big companies are better-able to handle burdensome legal regimes. For example, a few years ago Congress carved out an exception in section 230 for certain sex crimes. As a result, Craigslist had to shut down their dating sections because they didn't have the resources to moderate them strictly enough. Later, Facebook created a dating service, since they have much more resources, and they can deal with the 230 carve-out. Regulations lead to centralization at the top.

If you don't like how these companies do business, then use a different site. There are ways that this is bad/uncomfortable, but the alternative ways of possibly handling it are much worse.

As for the decision to ban this stuff itself: I can see how honest, well-meaning actors at these companies might justify their recent actions. Many of the people who participated in the capitol riot thought that they were doing the right thing, and maybe didn't even realize how much danger they were putting themselves in, but yet a few of them are dead and many of them are going to prison for a long time. People at these companies might reason that too many people are just too susceptible to being manipulated, and at least the top platforms should try to protect them from themselves. The most persistent believers will go elsewhere, and they should have the freedom to do so, but by having the most popular platforms cultivate their communities more, they might actually succeed in reducing the future growth of some of these crazy thought-bubbles.

There is a big risk, however, that this just creates more division. These people can go to Parler, and if Parler is gone from Google Play then they can create their separate app store. It leads down a road of basically splitting the Internet in two, and then we're going to have two almost completely separate cultures of people living amongst each other, which is a dangerous situation. Also, I think you're right in that a big part of their motivation is in appeasing the incoming administration, and these companies do have a history of being very biased. The recent decision by Twitter was clearly them just jumping onto a bandwagon, not a principled decision. IMO they'd be better-off trying to completely redesign the structure of their sites with the goals of 1) making manipulation more difficult and 2) not even giving themselves the opportunity to let their bias affect moderation. It's a difficult problem, though.

Or, they took a look at how much advertising revenue the Trump side was generating and how much advertising revenue the anti-Trump side was generating and made a business decision that they could throw a reason over.

Kind of like Nike with the Colin Kaepernick Just Do It campaign.
Nike did research, found a substantial majority of the people who buy their products were for Colin. And that most of the rest were ambivalent. The few that were Nike consumers that would leave because of the advertising were deemed an acceptable business loss vs the potential gain.
Looking at their stock price and sales it was a good call.

If you don't think it's all about the money you are deluding yourself.
But telling a lot of people you are worth more to us in advertising dollars and as a revenue stream then those other people over there just drives everyone away.

-Dave
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
So aside from this being dangerous I think it's important to talk about the implications of banning the current sitting President, soon to be ex-President.

These are private platforms, and legally-speaking they should be able to do what they want. If the government says that they have to allow X, or must ban Y, then you're giving the government a dangerous level of control over speech. If section 230 is repealed, then you're giving these companies a huge incentive to delete anything even remotely controversial, since they could be held liable otherwise. In either case, you're discouraging competition to the huge companies because you're creating a situation of regulatory capture: big companies are better-able to handle burdensome legal regimes. For example, a few years ago Congress carved out an exception in section 230 for certain sex crimes. As a result, Craigslist had to shut down their dating sections because they didn't have the resources to moderate them strictly enough. Later, Facebook created a dating service, since they have much more resources, and they can deal with the 230 carve-out. Regulations lead to centralization at the top.

If you don't like how these companies do business, then use a different site. There are ways that this is bad/uncomfortable, but the alternative ways of possibly handling it are much worse.

As for the decision to ban this stuff itself: I can see how honest, well-meaning actors at these companies might justify their recent actions. Many of the people who participated in the capitol riot thought that they were doing the right thing, and maybe didn't even realize how much danger they were putting themselves in, but yet a few of them are dead and many of them are going to prison for a long time. People at these companies might reason that too many people are just too susceptible to being manipulated, and at least the top platforms should try to protect them from themselves. The most persistent believers will go elsewhere, and they should have the freedom to do so, but by having the most popular platforms cultivate their communities more, they might actually succeed in reducing the future growth of some of these crazy thought-bubbles.

There is a big risk, however, that this just creates more division. These people can go to Parler, and if Parler is gone from Google Play then they can create their separate app store. It leads down a road of basically splitting the Internet in two, and then we're going to have two almost completely separate cultures of people living amongst each other, which is a dangerous situation. Also, I think you're right in that a big part of their motivation is in appeasing the incoming administration, and these companies do have a history of being very biased. The recent decision by Twitter was clearly them just jumping onto a bandwagon, not a principled decision. IMO they'd be better-off trying to completely redesign the structure of their sites with the goals of 1) making manipulation more difficult and 2) not even giving themselves the opportunity to let their bias affect moderation. It's a difficult problem, though.
legendary
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The way the media spun this trying to make this protest out to be worse than what BLM have been doing all summer in their “peaceful” protests
Always with blaming the media.  The first hand videos that came out today show it was even worse than I thought while watching it happen live.

They literally broke the doors down of the Capital with guns in their face while the Senate (including the VP) and House were in session with the intent to take elected officials hostage or worse.

They beat the shit out of and stole from journalists who's credentials were from any of the outlets Trump deemed 'enemy of the people'.

They ransacked and stole stuff (laptops, cameras, likely with classified information) out of personal offices belonging to members of congress, including the Speaker of the House.

They built a gallow while chanting about hanging the Vice President while others 'hunted him down'.

If BLM were responsible for all of the above, it would by far be their defining moment and the thing you mentioned first when talking about how bad they are.


PS: The vast majority of BLM protest have been peaceful.  The violent ones weren't called peaceful.  So no need for the quotes in "peaceful".
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 2617
Far, Far, Far Right Thug
I think things are about to get bad..

The way the media spun this trying to make this protest out to be worse than what BLM have been doing all summer in their “peaceful” protests, calling this white supremacy, they are starting a civil war..

The Trump protesters didn’t burn blocks to the ground, they went straight to the congressional buildings and TOOK them.. Didn’t even burn them..

They are scared and made a very faulty decision emotionally..
They made a big mistake not giving this protest any respect at all after giving every excuse in the book for BLM..

These patriot protesters are MUCH more powerful and MUCH more intelligent than BLM protesters..
I’m not sure they know what they are doing pissing them off this badly..

By the way, when it comes down to it, resisting oppression and tyranny matters a whole fucking lot more than a million black lives, plus another million white lives, and a few million more lives of any kind..
Principles matter more than lives..

Lives don’t mean fuck all compared to what is happening to us people these days, which is just getting worse and worse..
They are using a damn cold as an excuse to shut us down, tell us what to do, and slowly step by step control every point of our lives, basically enslaving us..
Things are bad.. Lives will likely be traded soon..

Not to mention they VERY likely just got away with rigging a presidential election..

Their is no proof, but I believe probably 70% chance this election was rigged..

I saw MY own vote changed with MY own eyes 100% fucking fact, through dominion software..
Their excuses flew and they changed the vote reports AFTER getting caught, but I don’t trust them one Satoshi with their excuse and for all I know they were paid off but got too greedy with the change %s and got themselves caught..

The problem I see is that the Democrats are doing nothing other than pouring petrol on fires that have been lit for a very long time.

The storming of Capitol Hill is wrong (although there are conflicting reports of police facilitating some it) and sadly resulted in death. But at the end of the day normal proceedings could resume a few hours later.
Chuck Schumer: This was just like Pearl Harbour.

If Trump supposedly belongs in a straight jacket Chuck Schumer should have been wearing one years ago.
legendary
Activity: 2296
Merit: 2262
BTC or BUST
I think things are about to get bad..

The way the media spun this trying to make this protest out to be worse than what BLM have been doing all summer in their “peaceful” protests, calling this white supremacy, they are starting a civil war..

The Trump protesters didn’t burn blocks to the ground, they went straight to the congressional buildings and TOOK them.. Didn’t even burn them..

They are scared and made a very faulty decision emotionally..
They made a big mistake not giving this protest any respect at all after giving every excuse in the book for BLM..

These patriot protesters are MUCH more powerful and MUCH more intelligent than BLM protesters..
I’m not sure they know what they are doing pissing them off this badly..

By the way, when it comes down to it, resisting oppression and tyranny matters a whole fucking lot more than a million black lives, plus another million white lives, and a few million more lives of any kind..
Principles matter more than lives..

Lives don’t mean fuck all compared to what is happening to us people these days, which is just getting worse and worse..
They are using a damn cold as an excuse to shut us down, tell us what to do, and slowly step by step control every point of our lives, basically enslaving us..
Things are bad.. Lives will likely be traded soon..

Not to mention they VERY likely just got away with rigging a presidential election..

Their is no proof, but I believe probably 70% chance this election was rigged..

I saw MY own vote changed with MY own eyes 100% fucking fact, through dominion software..
Their excuses flew and they changed the vote reports AFTER getting caught, but I don’t trust them one Satoshi with their excuse and for all I know they were paid off but got too greedy with the change %s and got themselves caught..
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 2617
Far, Far, Far Right Thug
So where does this leave us? Probably down a dark road. If someone disagrees with me, I won't fight for them to be banned. I might call them retarded, but that's another discussion.

He can go to Parler if he doesn't want to be on Twitter. He broke Twitter rules, repeatedly, and Twitter was giving him a lot of slack until they didn't. Would you argue that he shouldn't be banned if he came here and started spamming off topic nonsense all over the forum?

The reason twitter gave for the ban was along the lines of "Trump said he wouldn't go to the inauguration, therefore he's inciting violence because of the broader context." I kid you not.

If he was actually breaking the rules, I'd call for his ban too. They've let people on the left who call for death against the right stay up. Pretty sure the Iranian and Chinese accounts are still up too lol

That's the thing, Twitter can decide what they think is the context of tweets.

Like I said, if their platform is THAT dangerous if they didn't ban people why allow the platform to exist?
legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1519
So where does this leave us? Probably down a dark road. If someone disagrees with me, I won't fight for them to be banned. I might call them retarded, but that's another discussion.

He can go to Parler if he doesn't want to be on Twitter. He broke Twitter rules, repeatedly, and Twitter was giving him a lot of slack until they didn't. Would you argue that he shouldn't be banned if he came here and started spamming off topic nonsense all over the forum?

The reason twitter gave for the ban was along the lines of "Trump said he wouldn't go to the inauguration, therefore he's inciting violence because of the broader context." I kid you not.

If he was actually breaking the rules, I'd call for his ban too. They've let people on the left who call for death against the right stay up. Pretty sure the Iranian and Chinese accounts are still up too lol
legendary
Activity: 3654
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Hardly a good comparison if he would join BitcoinTalk and spam threads. No one on this forum is (presumably) an elected president.

How does being an elected something or other make you immune to the rules of a website?

If words were ever that dangerous why is social media allowed to exist?

The guy that started Facebook started his social media career with a site stealing women's photos from a university index and allowing people to rate them.

To pretend such people somehow have the moral high ground is utter moronic.

Exactly. Facebook sucks. Why people insist on using it is beyond me.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 2617
Far, Far, Far Right Thug
So where does this leave us? Probably down a dark road. If someone disagrees with me, I won't fight for them to be banned. I might call them retarded, but that's another discussion.

He can go to Parler if he doesn't want to be on Twitter. He broke Twitter rules, repeatedly, and Twitter was giving him a lot of slack until they didn't. Would you argue that he shouldn't be banned if he came here and started spamming off topic nonsense all over the forum?

No he can't because Google have already taken it down from their playstore and Apple will most likely follow suit. Next step will be ISPs banning the host most likely if left wing voices still consider it a threat to their views.

Hardly a good comparison if he would join BitcoinTalk and spam threads. No one on this forum is (presumably) an elected president.

If words were ever that dangerous why is social media allowed to exist?

The guy that started Facebook started his social media career with a site stealing women's photos from a university index and allowing people to rate them.

To pretend such people somehow have the moral high ground is utter moronic.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
So where does this leave us? Probably down a dark road. If someone disagrees with me, I won't fight for them to be banned. I might call them retarded, but that's another discussion.

He can go to Parler if he doesn't want to be on Twitter. He broke Twitter rules, repeatedly, and Twitter was giving him a lot of slack until they didn't. Would you argue that he shouldn't be banned if he came here and started spamming off topic nonsense all over the forum?
legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1519
This probably deserves it's own thread but I'm posting this here because I think some of the things I talk about pertains to key issues that people voted on in the 2020 election. Feel free to delete if it's not on topic and I'll post it somewhere else.

Anyways - Orange man was suspended from twitter!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump

https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1347684877634838528

Quote
After close review of recent Tweets from the
@realDonaldTrump
 account and the context around them we have permanently suspended the account due to the risk of further incitement of violence.

So aside from this being dangerous I think it's important to talk about the implications of banning the current sitting President, soon to be ex-President.

I'm a firm believer that tech regulations, tech censorship, ect. were on the ballot in the 2020 election and that if Republicans were to win, they would work to take away "publisher" status away from big tech companies -- probably messing around with section 230. I think this would have been disastrous and don't believe that Republicans would have been successful in their effort because many conservatives realize you can't go around dictating how private companies handle their user policy and content regulation. So basically you would have had the status quo if Republicans were to win -- nothing changes, life goes on.

Now that democrats won and contain full control, I think we see the consequence playing out in real time. Trump was banned from Facebook and Twitter obviously followed through and banned Trump too. I'm thinking that big tech companies are jumping ahead of the gun and are removing Trump because it will successfully limit Republican reach on social media platforms which means democrats control the political discussion online. Meaning, I think Facebook and Twitter banned Trump so they can avoid scrutiny by democrats who would undoubtedly push cumbersome regulations on big tech companies to if they don't adhere to de-platforming individuals they don't like. It's no secret that democrats have floated the idea of banning Trump from social media due to "inciting violence" before. Twitter also pulled the trigger and banned Sydney Powell, Michael Flynn, and a few other Q-tards.

So where does this leave us? Probably down a dark road. If someone disagrees with me, I won't fight for them to be banned. I might call them retarded, but that's another discussion.

legendary
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It's Trumps penultimate Friday as President (or possibly his final Friday) - a good time for him to do things he doesn't want to get as much coverage by the media. Pardonpalooza in a couple hours?

Does he still have anyone around to prepare the paperwork? Not sure if pardon via tweet would hold up in court.
legendary
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It's Trumps penultimate Friday as President (or possibly his final Friday) - a good time for him to do things he doesn't want to get as much coverage by the media. Pardonpalooza in a couple hours?
legendary
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Devos, Mnuchin, Chao, Mulvaney all did it so publicly and flagrantly that it has many people on both sides wanting them nailed to the wall.

Did any of them actually condemn Trump's coup attempt? Because if they left with "it was an honor to work for you sir" then they're just trying to avoid making the decision regarding 25th, and not willing to burn bridges with the base.
legendary
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8 resignations after the first 24 hours:

Such tough decisions... stay for two weeks until losing their jobs anyway or pretend to have a spine.

They want to get a head start on finding good lawyers to defend them.
Get in line early before all the good ones are taken.

I think one really good thing that Trump did was energize a lot of people about the way a lot of people in government violate the law and get away with it.
It has always been done, on both sides, and with some administrations more then others.
Now I see after decades of this people pissed enough to do something.

Devos, Mnuchin, Chao, Mulvaney all did it so publicly and flagrantly that it has many people on both sides wanting them nailed to the wall.
Was listening to a legal show the other day and some prosecutors were talking, some from "deep red" states and some from "deep blue" states about how since mid November they had been working together to draft something against some of these people. Will it go anywhere? Who knows, but even if it fizzles they are going to be spending a large amount of their next few years getting to testify about their actions.

Due to the current economic situation Mnuchin might make it out without getting hit. But the others, even if it's just at the state level, yeah they are getting subpoenas to testify about their actions.

-Dave
legendary
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https://bpip.org
8 resignations after the first 24 hours:

Such tough decisions... stay for two weeks until losing their jobs anyway or pretend to have a spine.
legendary
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Flying Hellfish is a Commie
Pandering to Trumps base is one thing, though I highly doubt the 40% of Americans (his base, probably a smaller number then this though) support what happened in the Capitol today.

Well, even if that's the case, there is another angle that could work - this was a false flag attack to push Biden's certification through. They will adopt whatever narrative plays best with the base and I doubt it would be "Trump incited violence at the Capitol". Keep in mind that none of the "election fraud" fantasy is going away and that is the foundation of this whole conflict.

I’ve been seeing this angle pop up more and more on social media - Lin Wood (lawyer for Trump at somepoint, may even be now) - is sharing pictures of a few people that were at BOTH AT BLM PROTESTS AND WERE AT THE WHITE HOUSE WHICH MEANS THAT THEY’RE OBVIOUSLY PAID ACTORS

Pretty interesting mental gymnastics to convince yourself that at first there was nothing wrong with this event, but then at a certain point far left extremists got in with the intention of making yall look bad by agitating(?)

Pandering to Trumps base is one thing, though I highly doubt the 40% of Americans (his base, probably a smaller number then this though) support what happened in the Capitol today.

Well, even if that's the case, there is another angle that could work - this was a false flag attack to push Biden's certification through. They will adopt whatever narrative plays best with the base and I doubt it would be "Trump incited violence at the Capitol". Keep in mind that none of the "election fraud" fantasy is going away and that is the foundation of this whole conflict.

Tash has you covered: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.56041284

BADecker will fill us in on the details later today I'm sure.

Sigh.
legendary
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Pandering to Trumps base is one thing, though I highly doubt the 40% of Americans (his base, probably a smaller number then this though) support what happened in the Capitol today.

Well, even if that's the case, there is another angle that could work - this was a false flag attack to push Biden's certification through. They will adopt whatever narrative plays best with the base and I doubt it would be "Trump incited violence at the Capitol". Keep in mind that none of the "election fraud" fantasy is going away and that is the foundation of this whole conflict.

Tash has you covered: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.56041284

BADecker will fill us in on the details later today I'm sure.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
Pandering to Trumps base is one thing, though I highly doubt the 40% of Americans (his base, probably a smaller number then this though) support what happened in the Capitol today.

Well, even if that's the case, there is another angle that could work - this was a false flag attack to push Biden's certification through. They will adopt whatever narrative plays best with the base and I doubt it would be "Trump incited violence at the Capitol". Keep in mind that none of the "election fraud" fantasy is going away and that is the foundation of this whole conflict.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1285
Flying Hellfish is a Commie
Expecting a TON of people in the WH to resign over the next few days. Only way to ensure that they’ll have a job in the next Republican administration, as this is the last straw for Trumpism in the party — or at least for the future of the party.

After the last four years - or maybe I was always that cynical - I don't believe that this dissent will last. Some Republicans will say the correct words, some will quietly wait it out, but when the next round of primaries starts they will all be pandering to Trump's base again, which will see this attack on the Capitol as real patriots doing the right thing. Fox News is already weaving a narrative to that effect. I'm sure Newsmax and OAN are way ahead.

I don’t know about that, I truly think this may be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Pandering to Trumps base is one thing, though I highly doubt the 40% of Americans (his base, probably a smaller number then this though) support what happened in the Capitol today.

I can only imagine what is going on at OAN, Newsmax, and Fox — though I do think a lot of people saw this for what it is today without having their narrative fed by someone else. Like just seeing the pictures and videos on social media / newspaper / whatever medium you use is enough to show that what happened today WENT WAY TOO FAR.

Depends on the amount of pressure the next few days have though, that’s where we see what we’ll make of all of this. I still do think that the Trump rule of the party is tainted, and will probably be leaning towards an end here. Gives GOP a lot of wiggle room to run away from him now.
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