Using ToS against users normal? - page 11.

danadc

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Quote from: Fivestar4everMVP on June 27, 2023, 07:27:10 AM

Quote from: vv181 on June 27, 2023, 07:13:05 AM

Quote from: SirLancelot on June 27, 2023, 06:56:05 AM

Quote from: PX-Z on June 23, 2023, 06:03:57 PM

~

A lot of casinos and platforms have that written in their Terms and Conditions that they have the right to modify, change and add new rules in their terms and conditions without the consent of their users and when users agree with their terms and conditions, they indirectly agree with this condition as well which gives them the right to do anything they want and the gamblers can't even complain because they have agreed and accepted the terms and conditions.

If a casino takes ethical values into consideration, they would probably inform their users about the changes that they've made in the terms and conditions, but if they don't care about all that, they would obviously not make that happen and wouldn't inform their users at all.

In some cases, there is a regulation that enforces companies to inform users each any changes they have made. ToS is an agreement, it should be legally void if there significant modification without noticing the user. Actually, it came back to users' consumer protection laws in their own respective countries. If the regulations are enforced, the user should be aware and informed of such a condition.

There should be also limitations on what can companies do, surely they did not have the right to do "anything" they want freely without any legal basis.

You have a very good and valid point, and I agree with you, I believe serious businesses know how important their terms of service is to the business regardless that most customers even in this 21st century still regard ToS as not so important document to go through..

Like some weeks back when stake updated their terms of service, they made sure no user entered their account without first reading the terms of service, but still, many people did not read it, they just scrolled down the page, clicked the "I have read and agree to the terms and conditions" (what ever way it's written) button and then move on with their normal gambling activities, several millions of people out there only read the terms of service of a platform when ever they have encountered or have issues with the platform..

What I think is that when a casino that is recognized and old updates its terms and conditions it is because it needs to quickly integrate into a new way of seeing games of chance , I am not sure if that includes Bonuses and Bonus terms that they are not so difficult , but a casino should make its update based on what is Coming for the future and may be better, not that it will predispose the position of the players, because with dissatisfied players the casino will not perform well and will have many losses and that is not only what is Sought , a casino must stand out very well According to its competition.

sunsilk

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Quote from: Hypnosis00 on June 27, 2023, 07:22:42 AM

You do have a point because when you agree to the Terms of Service (TOS) upon signing up, it provides all the necessary information you need to know. If there are any significant changes that would greatly impact the customers, it's crucial for them to inform us. However, I believe that in legitimate cases, there aren't many significant changes, or if there are any, they are likely scams by sites attempting to deceive gamblers.

If there's an unnotified changes as per rules of the casinos and didn't inform the customers and mostly the ones that are affected by that change. They can alibi that they're free to change the rules without informing their users.

But as required by law, hopefully where they're operating requires and states that they should do a fair change of any rule that they have for the users to be at least informed before making a change.

It's typical, normal and also ethical.

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Quote from: vv181 on June 27, 2023, 07:13:05 AM

Quote from: SirLancelot on June 27, 2023, 06:56:05 AM

Quote from: PX-Z on June 23, 2023, 06:03:57 PM

~

A lot of casinos and platforms have that written in their Terms and Conditions that they have the right to modify, change and add new rules in their terms and conditions without the consent of their users and when users agree with their terms and conditions, they indirectly agree with this condition as well which gives them the right to do anything they want and the gamblers can't even complain because they have agreed and accepted the terms and conditions.

If a casino takes ethical values into consideration, they would probably inform their users about the changes that they've made in the terms and conditions, but if they don't care about all that, they would obviously not make that happen and wouldn't inform their users at all.

In some cases, there is a regulation that enforces companies to inform users each any changes they have made. ToS is an agreement, it should be legally void if there significant modification without noticing the user. Actually, it came back to users' consumer protection laws in their own respective countries. If the regulations are enforced, the user should be aware and informed of such a condition.

There should be also limitations on what can companies do, surely they did not have the right to do "anything" they want freely without any legal basis.

You have a very good and valid point, and I agree with you, I believe serious businesses know how important their terms of service is to the business regardless that most customers even in this 21st century still regard ToS as not so important document to go through..

Like some weeks back when stake updated their terms of service, they made sure no user entered their account without first reading the terms of service, but still, many people did not read it, they just scrolled down the page, clicked the "I have read and agree to the terms and conditions" (what ever way it's written) button and then move on with their normal gambling activities, several millions of people out there only read the terms of service of a platform when ever they have encountered or have issues with the platform..

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Quote from: vv181 on June 27, 2023, 07:13:05 AM

Quote from: SirLancelot on June 27, 2023, 06:56:05 AM

Quote from: PX-Z on June 23, 2023, 06:03:57 PM

~

A lot of casinos and platforms have that written in their Terms and Conditions that they have the right to modify, change and add new rules in their terms and conditions without the consent of their users and when users agree with their terms and conditions, they indirectly agree with this condition as well which gives them the right to do anything they want and the gamblers can't even complain because they have agreed and accepted the terms and conditions.

If a casino takes ethical values into consideration, they would probably inform their users about the changes that they've made in the terms and conditions, but if they don't care about all that, they would obviously not make that happen and wouldn't inform their users at all.

In some cases, there is a regulation that enforces companies to inform users each any changes they have made. ToS is an agreement, it should be legally void if there significant modification without noticing the user. Actually, it came back to users' consumer protection laws in their own respective countries. If the regulations are enforced, the user should be aware and informed of such a condition.

There should be also limitations on what can companies do, surely they did not have the right to do "anything" they want freely without any legal basis.

You do have a point because when you agree to the Terms of Service (TOS) upon signing up, it provides all the necessary information you need to know. If there are any significant changes that would greatly impact the customers, it's crucial for them to inform us. However, I believe that in legitimate cases, there aren't many significant changes, or if there are any, they are likely scams by sites attempting to deceive gamblers.

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Quote from: SirLancelot on June 27, 2023, 06:56:05 AM

Quote from: PX-Z on June 23, 2023, 06:03:57 PM

~

A lot of casinos and platforms have that written in their Terms and Conditions that they have the right to modify, change and add new rules in their terms and conditions without the consent of their users and when users agree with their terms and conditions, they indirectly agree with this condition as well which gives them the right to do anything they want and the gamblers can't even complain because they have agreed and accepted the terms and conditions.

If a casino takes ethical values into consideration, they would probably inform their users about the changes that they've made in the terms and conditions, but if they don't care about all that, they would obviously not make that happen and wouldn't inform their users at all.

In some cases, there is a regulation that enforces companies to inform users each any changes they have made. ToS is an agreement, it should be legally void if there significant modification without noticing the user. Actually, it came back to users' consumer protection laws in their own respective countries. If the regulations are enforced, the user should be aware and informed of such a condition.

There should be also limitations on what can companies do, surely they did not have the right to do "anything" they want freely without any legal basis.

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Quote from: PX-Z on June 23, 2023, 06:03:57 PM

Quote from: pawel7777 on June 22, 2023, 10:48:42 AM

Sure, sending notifications of any changes is a good practice, but did Stake.com actually obliged themselves (in the ToS) to send notifications of any changes? If not, you'd still have to read them everytime you log in, if you want to practice what you preach.

This is the cheatsheet of every casino that lawmakers should check and I knew every service is required by law to do that^{(notifying when there's a change in TOS at least 2 weeks before)}. But stake mentioned on its TOS that they can change their TOS with or without notifying its users so you need to read it regularly like its just 3-5 lines sentences amp.

A lot of casinos and platforms have that written in their Terms and Conditions that they have the right to modify, change and add new rules in their terms and conditions without the consent of their users and when users agree with their terms and conditions, they indirectly agree with this condition as well which gives them the right to do anything they want and the gamblers can't even complain because they have agreed and accepted the terms and conditions.

If a casino takes ethical values into consideration, they would probably inform their users about the changes that they've made in the terms and conditions, but if they don't care about all that, they would obviously not make that happen and wouldn't inform their users at all.

lionheart78

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Quote from: PX-Z on June 24, 2023, 09:31:44 AM

Quote from: Blitzboy on June 24, 2023, 05:10:00 AM

And don't even get me started on those scammy casinos that modify their TOS to suit their ends. It's high time some strict regulations are put into place to hold them accountable.

Best thing is to always have an archive of the TOS page ehen you register and when you read it again so on and so forth. But it's useless if the casino is really want to scam its user(s). Better to use a trusted one to have lesser issues in the future.

True, scam casinos can even make their TOS so player-sided in order to trap these unsuspecting victims to register on their site and play. Since they are scam platforms, they won't care about their reputation anyway and will keep on scamming any player that had been caught by their trap.

On the other hand, reputable casinos always create a TOS that is both beneficial for the player and the platform and use it as guide on how the user can use their platform and not to entice players to register on their site.

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Quote from: Blitzboy on June 24, 2023, 05:10:00 AM

And don't even get me started on those scammy casinos that modify their TOS to suit their ends. It's high time some strict regulations are put into place to hold them accountable.

Best thing is to always have an archive of the TOS page ehen you register and when you read it again so on and so forth. But it's useless if the casino is really want to scam its user(s). Better to use a trusted one to have lesser issues in the future.

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Quote from: Wiwo on June 23, 2023, 06:14:55 PM

Quote from: PX-Z on June 23, 2023, 06:03:57 PM

Quote from: pawel7777 on June 22, 2023, 10:48:42 AM

Sure, sending notifications of any changes is a good practice, but did Stake.com actually obliged themselves (in the ToS) to send notifications of any changes? If not, you'd still have to read them everytime you log in, if you want to practice what you preach.

This is the cheatsheet of every casino that lawmakers should check and I knew every service is required by law to do that^{(notifying when there's a change in TOS at least 2 weeks before)}. But stake mentioned on its TOS that they can change their TOS with or without notifying its users so you need to read it regularly like its just 3-5 lines sentences amp.

The question now is that, how often should one read the TOS because if casinos already mentioned that they could change the Term and condition at any time without informing their client and the client need to stay updated that means customers on their site will have to read the terms and conditions almost every day and that is impossible to do when the document is always large to read through and come out from it as soon as possible, thos have become the masseur reasons why most casino users never border to read through that documents just by a glance.
But most times some scam casinos also use this issue of TOS to steal from players and then change the terms and conditions just to serve their selfish interests in the long run.

I agree entirely. Its ludicrous to expect users to pore over the TOS regularly. This expectation of constant vigilance is more in favor of the casinos rather than their clientele. And truth be told, its a crafty legal loophole exploited by them. However, one might argue that a responsible player should familiarize themselves with the TOS, as cumbersome as it may be. After all, it's their money on the line. Still, expecting daily updates? Thats straight-up outrageous

And don't even get me started on those scammy casinos that modify their TOS to suit their ends. It's high time some strict regulations are put into place to hold them accountable.

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Quote from: PX-Z on June 23, 2023, 06:03:57 PM

Quote from: pawel7777 on June 22, 2023, 10:48:42 AM

Sure, sending notifications of any changes is a good practice, but did Stake.com actually obliged themselves (in the ToS) to send notifications of any changes? If not, you'd still have to read them everytime you log in, if you want to practice what you preach.

This is the cheatsheet of every casino that lawmakers should check and I knew every service is required by law to do that^{(notifying when there's a change in TOS at least 2 weeks before)}. But stake mentioned on its TOS that they can change their TOS with or without notifying its users so you need to read it regularly like its just 3-5 lines sentences amp.

The question now is that, how often should one read the TOS because if casinos already mentioned that they could change the Term and condition at any time without informing their client and the client need to stay updated that means customers on their site will have to read the terms and conditions almost every day and that is impossible to do when the document is always large to read through and come out from it as soon as possible, thos have become the masseur reasons why most casino users never border to read through that documents just by a glance.
But most times some scam casinos also use this issue of TOS to steal from players and then change the terms and conditions just to serve their selfish interests in the long run.

PX-Z

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Quote from: pawel7777 on June 22, 2023, 10:48:42 AM

Sure, sending notifications of any changes is a good practice, but did Stake.com actually obliged themselves (in the ToS) to send notifications of any changes? If not, you'd still have to read them everytime you log in, if you want to practice what you preach.

This is the cheatsheet of every casino that lawmakers should check and I knew every service is required by law to do that^{(notifying when there's a change in TOS at least 2 weeks before)}. But stake mentioned on its TOS that they can change their TOS with or without notifying its users so you need to read it regularly like its just 3-5 lines sentences amp.

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Quote from: maydna on June 23, 2023, 11:28:04 AM

But that's what I do. After all, I do it maybe once every two weeks or once a month, just to ensure nothing changes. Well, I don't gamble much, so I have a lot of free time to read or browse the site to find great deals. Stake.com did it a while ago and activated a small window that would pop up, notifying them that something had changed in their change. You can check @Coin_trader replied.

That's very nice of them, but that's not what I asked. I asked if they obliged themselves to notify you of any changes. If not, you can't rely on notifications alone, and, to be consistent with your approach, you'd have to read the ToS (or at least check for changes) each time you log in.

Quote from: maydna on June 23, 2023, 11:28:04 AM

How could a real gambler not take the time to read his TOS? Or is this what happens with the many complaints of people who have hundreds or thousands of dollars in balances in their accounts but are suddenly blocked due to violations?

Define 'real gambler'. I feel we have a different idea of what this means.
Can you post a single example of anyone being locked out of hundreds of thousands, which could've been prevented if they had read the ToS? Have you ever seen a ToS saying "we can lock you out of your funds permanently"? Usually the wording is pretty vague and can be interpreted in many ways.

Quote from: maydna on June 23, 2023, 11:28:04 AM

What really protects you when playing gambling is just playing with the money you can afford.

How is losing money I can afford to lose protecting me from losing money? It just makes losing less painful.

Quote from: maydna on June 23, 2023, 11:28:04 AM

Stake.com has done that a while back. And they ask us to read it because it's important that we don't break it. So reading the TOS is recommended even though many gamblers don't like to read the TOS because it's too long.

People don't read them not only because their long, but also because every single service will give themselves a right to change them at any time, so it's kind of pointless. And if the casino operates in your jurisdiction, in a way you could take legal action against them if they misbehave, then the law would usually provide you a decent protection.

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Quote from: pawel7777 on June 22, 2023, 10:48:42 AM

I find it hard to believe that you have actually read a full ToS of any gambling site, it doesn't make sense especially when you don't gamble too much. Why would you spend a chunk of your free time to read them if you only wanted to play a little bit? It does not add up.

Sure, sending notifications of any changes is a good practice, but did Stake.com actually obliged themselves (in the ToS) to send notifications of any changes? If not, you'd still have to read them everytime you log in, if you want to practice what you preach.

I'm not asking you to believe I've read it Grin

But that's what I do. After all, I do it maybe once every two weeks or once a month, just to ensure nothing changes. Well, I don't gamble much, so I have a lot of free time to read or browse the site to find great deals. Stake.com did it a while ago and activated a small window that would pop up, notifying them that something had changed in their change. You can check @Coin_trader replied.

Quote from: pawel7777 on June 22, 2023, 10:48:42 AM

If you're a real gambler, you'll take a gamble of not reading them Grin

But seriously, as mentioned before, unless you're looking for a specific, nuanced information, reading ToS doesn't help much and does not guarantee you won't get in trouble, as those would almost always be worded in favour of the house, not the player. So what really protects you is either the law, or a hope that casino is genuine and will not engage in any shady practice out of a fear of losing reputation.

How could a real gambler not take the time to read his TOS? Or is this what happens with the many complaints of people who have hundreds or thousands of dollars in balances in their accounts but are suddenly blocked due to violations? What really protects you when playing gambling is just playing with the money you can afford.

Quote from: klidex on June 22, 2023, 01:53:39 PM

Yes, not all casinos will give notifications when there are changes to the TOS, but as I recall, the popular casinos that I currently use, such as Stake.com, will notify you when you open the site after the TOS changes have been made.
Like last time when Stake changed the TOS and I opened the site and there was a notification that there was a change in the TOS that had been determined.
It is at that time that we are obliged to read the changes that have occurred so that we avoid the problem of violating the TOS.
Maybe not all casinos will have the same notices but I hope we all at least read a little bit about the more important TOS we have to comply with.

Stake.com has done that a while back. And they ask us to read it because it's important that we don't break it. So reading the TOS is recommended even though many gamblers don't like to read the TOS because it's too long.

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Quote from: piebeyb on June 23, 2023, 05:43:33 AM

Yes if I'm not mistaken not long ago I also received a notification that there was a change in the TOS from my account at Stake and made sure we read it too and agreed, that's why I always believe in Stake , because maybe not all casinos do the same with Stake, but this i say not because i brought their site signature campaign but i believe all Stake users might see that notification in their account.

I open my Stake account just now and this ToS update popup on my screen while I need to agree first before I can play the casino. This is a good feature of Stake to make all the players updated but the only thing I hate about this was they included the whole ToS instead of just highlighting what's new to save time for players on noting what's to look out. It's very hard to read the full ToS written on the small notification box and there's a high tendency that user will just skip to the last part and confirm just to close the notification box.

Quote from: piebeyb on June 23, 2023, 05:43:33 AM

Tos changes that are not known by the user, in my opinion, is a crime committed by the casino secretly to commit fraud and steal user money. usually maybe it only happens in small and new casinos, don't know in other casinos besides stake. whether they do the same or not. I have no experience at other casinos.

It's a crime if the changes on ToS is important that can affect the users current gameplay but if it's just minor update then it's not a big deal. As a player. We should be updated always on the casino terms since we are risking our money on their services.

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Quote from: klidex on June 22, 2023, 01:53:39 PM

Quote from: maydna on June 22, 2023, 02:59:11 AM

The rules at the casino can change at any time, without or with notification and this requires our attention so that we can be aware of these changes and we need to adapt to the new regulations. It's better for us to take a moment to know the rules than to regret them later because when we want to withdraw the winning money but find ourselves in trouble, it will disappoint us. There may be a reason the casino changed the rules so that people who don't see the TOS can get in trouble. But a trusted and good casino will always notify you if there is a change in the rules.

Yes, not all casinos will give notifications when there are changes to the TOS, but as I recall, the popular casinos that I currently use, such as Stake.com, will notify you when you open the site after the TOS changes have been made.
Like last time when Stake changed the TOS and I opened the site and there was a notification that there was a change in the TOS that had been determined.
It is at that time that we are obliged to read the changes that have occurred so that we avoid the problem of violating the TOS.
Maybe not all casinos will have the same notices but I hope we all at least read a little bit about the more important TOS we have to comply with.

Yes if I'm not mistaken not long ago I also received a notification that there was a change in the TOS from my account at Stake and made sure we read it too and agreed, that's why I always believe in Stake , because maybe not all casinos do the same with Stake, but this i say not because i brought their site signature campaign but i believe all Stake users might see that notification in their account.

Tos changes that are not known by the user, in my opinion, is a crime committed by the casino secretly to commit fraud and steal user money. usually maybe it only happens in small and new casinos, don't know in other casinos besides stake. whether they do the same or not. I have no experience at other casinos.

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Quote from: Renampun on June 21, 2023, 04:43:28 PM

Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

Trusted gambling sites will definitely keep their users informed about any events or changes that occur to their gambling sites (especially for countries that are not so friendly to casinos and cryptocurrency). changes will always be there and we can't refuse it but if the TOS changes in the casino, they don't inform the user in advance then most likely the site is trying to deceive users (immediately withdraw your money and leave the gambling site before they make it difficult for you to do that).

It isn`t so. Lots of casinos just have a paragraph in ToS that they can change ToS as they want and the gambler has to check it regulary.
The best of them after changes makes a gambler to accept it again but it is rare situation. And anyway even such casinos ToS contains some paragraphs that allows to cancel gambler`s win.

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Quote from: maydna on June 22, 2023, 02:59:11 AM

The rules at the casino can change at any time, without or with notification and this requires our attention so that we can be aware of these changes and we need to adapt to the new regulations. It's better for us to take a moment to know the rules than to regret them later because when we want to withdraw the winning money but find ourselves in trouble, it will disappoint us. There may be a reason the casino changed the rules so that people who don't see the TOS can get in trouble. But a trusted and good casino will always notify you if there is a change in the rules.

Yes, not all casinos will give notifications when there are changes to the TOS, but as I recall, the popular casinos that I currently use, such as Stake.com, will notify you when you open the site after the TOS changes have been made.
Like last time when Stake changed the TOS and I opened the site and there was a notification that there was a change in the TOS that had been determined.
It is at that time that we are obliged to read the changes that have occurred so that we avoid the problem of violating the TOS.
Maybe not all casinos will have the same notices but I hope we all at least read a little bit about the more important TOS we have to comply with.

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Quote from: maydna on June 21, 2023, 01:40:06 PM

I do it myself, but since I don't gamble too much, I don't need it because I only gamble for fun and not for the pursuit of winning. I don't need to read all the ToS of all services because I've seen several notifications sent to my email or when I log in to my account.

I find it hard to believe that you have actually read a full ToS of any gambling site, it doesn't make sense especially when you don't gamble too much. Why would you spend a chunk of your free time to read them if you only wanted to play a little bit? It does not add up.

Sure, sending notifications of any changes is a good practice, but did Stake.com actually obliged themselves (in the ToS) to send notifications of any changes? If not, you'd still have to read them everytime you log in, if you want to practice what you preach.

Quote from: maydna on June 21, 2023, 01:40:06 PM

If you are a real gambler, you certainly don't want to get into trouble just for not reading the changes in the rules, do you?

If you're a real gambler, you'll take a gamble of not reading them Grin

But seriously, as mentioned before, unless you're looking for a specific, nuanced information, reading ToS doesn't help much and does not guarantee you won't get in trouble, as those would almost always be worded in favour of the house, not the player. So what really protects you is either the law, or a hope that casino is genuine and will not engage in any shady practice out of a fear of losing reputation.

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Quote from: wiss19 on June 22, 2023, 10:03:32 AM

Quote from: danadc on June 21, 2023, 04:03:01 PM

I never trust something like that, for me it is very important that the things that can occur such as having the terms correctly set without changes, because first I am not a player who always reads the terms, I have gotten rough for not reading, And if I enter a casino where I read the terms and I don't see anything favorable to me but that it is constantly changing, I don't stay because that is something that does not give me confidence, how can I trust a casino like this? there is no way, if I see that they change it is because they do it at the convenience of the casino, they will never do it to benefit the players, they will not be stupid to do it.

For everything they do on their platforms, they might show this way, but it isn't to benefit the players because they are running businesses and they need to take care of their revenue generation instead of taking care of players and their benefits. I know that there are some casinos that care too much about their gamblers because they know that they are nothing without them and their platform will be useless if there are no gamblers.

But that isn't the case with every casino out there, that is the reason why we should be vigilant when choosing a platform where we will gamble because not all of them are the same nor they are all trusted at the same level whether it's about terms and conditions or anything else.

There are shady casinos that simply care about their bottom line and don't value their customers. In some cases, the TOS have even been applied to penalize winning customers. Numerous complaints have been made against these kinds of casinos, thus it is understandable that their reputation has also been harmed by their behavior.

But when it comes to reputable casinos, I don't think they will do such thing because they will not allow their reputation to be affected negatively by that kind of act. They are following what's in the TOS and they are not even using it against their players. They know how to value their gamblers because they are the ones who generate funds for their business.

They still have the right to change their TOS anytime but they are also informing their gamblers. However, it is still our personal responsibility to check on the changes from time to time. Yes, reading will be time consuming but it will still be best for our future activities and transactions. We still have a part in assuring our wellness in a casino site.

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Merit: 348

Quote from: danadc on June 21, 2023, 04:03:01 PM

I never trust something like that, for me it is very important that the things that can occur such as having the terms correctly set without changes, because first I am not a player who always reads the terms, I have gotten rough for not reading, And if I enter a casino where I read the terms and I don't see anything favorable to me but that it is constantly changing, I don't stay because that is something that does not give me confidence, how can I trust a casino like this? there is no way, if I see that they change it is because they do it at the convenience of the casino, they will never do it to benefit the players, they will not be stupid to do it.

For everything they do on their platforms, they might show this way, but it isn't to benefit the players because they are running businesses and they need to take care of their revenue generation instead of taking care of players and their benefits. I know that there are some casinos that care too much about their gamblers because they know that they are nothing without them and their platform will be useless if there are no gamblers.

But that isn't the case with every casino out there, that is the reason why we should be vigilant when choosing a platform where we will gamble because not all of them are the same nor they are all trusted at the same level whether it's about terms and conditions or anything else.

Topic: Using ToS against users normal? - page 11. (Read 2955 times)