Using ToS against users normal? - page 13.

jostorres

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Quote from: uneng on June 19, 2023, 04:38:51 PM

Quote from: pawel7777 on June 19, 2023, 04:26:12 PM

Any regulated, law-compliant casino would not be able to pull any nasty tricks on their players via changes to ToS, as the law would usually offer protection to the players, or at least their deposited funds.
And for non-regulated ones, operating from exotic jurisdictions, regular studying of their ToS is probably pointless, as they could either change them whenever they see fit, or even ignore their own rules, as you unlikely will ever be able to take any legal actions, so it's all about trust and reputation.

As far as I know casinos have to ask users to agree with terms and conditions once again every time they make changes on it, doesn't matter how little they are, just like banks and every other services do. Moreover, a timeframe must be presented for users to cashout their funds, if they disagree the new terms. If casinos attempt to change (to forge) a document which was signed by an user, they are commiting a crime and will have to pay for it if the user denounces them to regulators.

However, proof is needed and I think the only way to do this would be to download and backup a copy of the terms and conditions on the moment of the agreement.

I think casinos are way wiser than that, they generally have a statement in their terms and conditions which says that they have the right to change, remove or modify any rule or statement written in terms and conditions at any given time, and guess what? Users agree with that when they are signing up, and when users accepted that themselves, there is nothing left about it and it wouldn't be considered a crime, it might be unethical not informing the customers though.

This is the reason why a gambler should always read the terms and conditions before they join a platform and they should always keep themselves updated. Most casinos don't make changes and if they do, they let their players know, but some might do it, so gamblers need to watch out.

Haunebu

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Quote from: Questat on June 20, 2023, 02:47:30 AM

It's necessary if you are gambling with a huge sum of money as you'll surely want to ensure that you can recover your winnings in case the gambling site cheats you. However, for typical gamblers who don't risk a significant amount of money, pursuing legal action can be time-consuming and a waste of effort as it takes time for gambling sites to be convicted of their wrongdoings.

Great point. I didn't really think of that. Most victims are usually small scale gamblers who cannot do much after getting screwed over, but they can still harm the site thanks to the proof that they collected within this forum and other sites.

Problem here is that most people are lazy which is why they don't bother with collecting proof and end up regretting it later on if they face such situations.

A couple of screenshots now and then is all it takes to safeguard your account and funds.

mak013

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Quote from: DoublerHunter on June 17, 2023, 03:50:37 PM

Quote from: mak013 on June 17, 2023, 02:24:44 PM

It is so. And if the gambler would read the ToS more attentively they often wouldn`t accepted it. Lots of paragraphs are written so blurry that the casino can ban gambler, or set the limits, or cancel his bet any moment. I had such problems several times and i can`t do anything with it - it is written in the ToS. The main problem that such situation is true for the most part of the casinos and you can read all the ToS attentively and don`t like it but you have to agree with it because you`ll get the same ToS in all other casinos.

^Laziness I think why most reason gamblers did not know the terms.
However, as I notice here there are many responsible gamblers who do take the time to read and understand the terms and conditions before engaging in any gambling activities. But most of them think that some gamblers may have used similar gambling services before and assume that the terms and conditions are likely to be similar as well. This assumption can lead to complacency and a lack of thorough reading which the result is not good for us.

Quote from: Minecache on June 17, 2023, 04:25:05 PM

Quote from: mak013 on June 17, 2023, 02:24:44 PM

Quote from: slapper on June 16, 2023, 04:01:46 PM

Sure, many gamers find TOS a roadblock and overlook it, but it's this neglect that can cause problems. The TOS isn't just wordy gibberish; it's a pact detailing rights and duties of both parties. Believing that reading TOS is time-wasting doesn't lessen its key role in warding off disputes. Gamers could dodge troubles by knowing what they're agreeing to. Promoting TOS awareness isn't useless, even if largely ignored. Skipping the TOS can lead to unexpected issues like account freezing, lost income, or quarrels with support. Thus, urging players to read TOS can spare time and future headaches.

It is so. And if the gambler would read the ToS more attentively they often wouldn`t accepted it. Lots of paragraphs are written so blurry that the casino can ban gambler, or set the limits, or cancel his bet any moment. I had such problems several times and i can`t do anything with it - it is written in the ToS. The main problem that such situation is true for the most part of the casinos and you can read all the ToS attentively and don`t like it but you have to agree with it because you`ll get the same ToS in all other casinos.

Before accepting the terms and conditions, gamblers should carefully read and understand them. Reviewing the terms can be time-consuming and challenging, but it is important for users to understand the risks and limitations associated with using a particular casino platform. ToS clauses that you find unfavorable or ambiguous must be carefully considered before you accept them. Whenever you have questions or concerns, you can reach out to the casino's customer service team. Your specific concerns may be addressed by them or they may be able to provide more information.

While many casinos have similar or even identical terms, it's still important to read each ToS carefully, as there may be subtle differences or additional clauses that may affect your experience, But I will never support changing ToS silently, in a casino want to change some certain ToS they should inform the existing customer first.

I don`t talking about reading ToS. If the gambler didn`t read the ToS and agreed with it - it is only his problem. And it doesn`t matter was the gambler lazy or just decided that it is the same ToS.
But the gambler can`t do anything with the paragraphs in the ToS. He has to agree with them or search the casino without these paragraphs. And the problem is that these paragraphs are the same for the casinos and no one will change them.

Questat

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Quote from: Haunebu on June 20, 2023, 02:24:23 AM

This is why gamblers need to do their research thoroughly and regularly store proof of their important transactions which could be helpful later on.

It's necessary if you are gambling with a huge sum of money as you'll surely want to ensure that you can recover your winnings in case the gambling site cheats you. However, for typical gamblers who don't risk a significant amount of money, pursuing legal action can be time-consuming and a waste of effort as it takes time for gambling sites to be convicted of their wrongdoings.

Haunebu

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This is easily one of the biggest issues with online gambling sites these days. I didn't experience this issue yet, but I have seen so many legit gamblers get screwed because of greedy sites taking advantage of the TOS.

This is why gamblers need to do their research thoroughly and regularly store proof of their important transactions which could be helpful later on.

Docnaster

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Quote from: uneng on June 19, 2023, 04:38:51 PM

Quote from: pawel7777 on June 19, 2023, 04:26:12 PM

Any regulated, law-compliant casino would not be able to pull any nasty tricks on their players via changes to ToS, as the law would usually offer protection to the players, or at least their deposited funds.
And for non-regulated ones, operating from exotic jurisdictions, regular studying of their ToS is probably pointless, as they could either change them whenever they see fit, or even ignore their own rules, as you unlikely will ever be able to take any legal actions, so it's all about trust and reputation.

As far as I know casinos have to ask users to agree with terms and conditions once again every time they make changes on it, doesn't matter how little they are, just like banks and every other services do. Moreover, a timeframe must be presented for users to cashout their funds, if they disagree the new terms. If casinos attempt to change (to forge) a document which was signed by an user, they are commiting a crime and will have to pay for it if the user denounces them to regulators.

However, proof is needed and I think the only way to do this would be to download and backup a copy of the terms and conditions on the moment of the agreement.

Making it downloadable is the only way out of this. Some casinos could actually make changes and refuse to let gamblers know just like what Op said and then clear their changes log. How will an ordinary gambler like me and you trace it. When you complain they will refer you to the ToS and since you don't have a backup of the original terms you lost the case
In most cases too, gamblers doesn't care much about ToS, they will go straight and start gambling.

uneng

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Quote from: pawel7777 on June 19, 2023, 04:26:12 PM

Any regulated, law-compliant casino would not be able to pull any nasty tricks on their players via changes to ToS, as the law would usually offer protection to the players, or at least their deposited funds.
And for non-regulated ones, operating from exotic jurisdictions, regular studying of their ToS is probably pointless, as they could either change them whenever they see fit, or even ignore their own rules, as you unlikely will ever be able to take any legal actions, so it's all about trust and reputation.

As far as I know casinos have to ask users to agree with terms and conditions once again every time they make changes on it, doesn't matter how little they are, just like banks and every other services do. Moreover, a timeframe must be presented for users to cashout their funds, if they disagree the new terms. If casinos attempt to change (to forge) a document which was signed by an user, they are commiting a crime and will have to pay for it if the user denounces them to regulators.

However, proof is needed and I think the only way to do this would be to download and backup a copy of the terms and conditions on the moment of the agreement.

pawel7777

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Quote from: Jawhead999 on June 19, 2023, 08:57:00 AM

Terms of service in any regulated site is really long and you need to spend for at least 30 minutes to read an entire rules. The question is, how regular you read the whole terms? everyday? every week? every month? it's time wasting if your life is only used to read the casino terms.

Usually a regulated casino terms is similar to each other, they will ask to submit KYC including ask video or live, if you don't want to fulfill it, you will not able to withdraw your big winnings.

Any regulated, law-compliant casino would not be able to pull any nasty tricks on their players via changes to ToS, as the law would usually offer protection to the players, or at least their deposited funds.
And for non-regulated ones, operating from exotic jurisdictions, regular studying of their ToS is probably pointless, as they could either change them whenever they see fit, or even ignore their own rules, as you unlikely will ever be able to take any legal actions, so it's all about trust and reputation.

Jawhead999

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Quote from: maydna on June 19, 2023, 08:48:17 AM

If they never want to check the rules, they can miss the information if there is a change in the rules, and they can have difficulties when they want to withdraw the money. Even though we don't chase victory either, we also have to check the rules regularly to adjust properly because if we are lucky, we can win a lot of money. And if we don't check the rules before playing and it turns out that we win a lot of money, that can make us have to do something to be able to withdraw the winning money. So there's nothing wrong if we check the rules so we won't be disappointed later.

Terms of service in any regulated site is really long and you need to spend for at least 30 minutes to read an entire rules. The question is, how regular you read the whole terms? everyday? every week? every month? it's time wasting if your life is only used to read the casino terms.

Usually a regulated casino terms is similar to each other, they will ask to submit KYC including ask video or live, if you don't want to fulfill it, you will not able to withdraw your big winnings.

maydna

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Quote from: danadc on June 18, 2023, 04:24:36 PM

Quote from: maydna on June 18, 2023, 07:47:07 AM

Quote from: rozak on June 17, 2023, 10:24:15 PM

Quote from: khaled0111 on June 17, 2023, 06:53:34 PM

^^
Not reading the ToS is not an excuse.
It doesn't matter why you didn't read the ToS of the service, but if you are going to be punished then you should assume it. The terms where there in front if you and you signed with the service and acknowledged that you agree with its terms.
If they find you guilty of breaching those terms then there isn't much anyone can do. You are at fault here and you should assume your responsibilities.

yes, if the ToS is approved at the beginning we create an account on the gambling platform, then it will be our fault if we violate the conditions we have agreed to.
but if there is a ToS change and the platform does not make a notification on the web or their social media. then of course it needs to be questioned. because usually an exchange platform also makes a notification if there is a change in their terms. or any application usually sends emails regarding changes to some conditions. and if we still don't read it, of course, it will be our fault.

Gamblers often underestimate this by not reading notification emails or when they enter the casino because usually, there must be a small or big window notifying them of the change. And if they weren't alert or didn't understand, they would just close the window and go straight to the game. But some casinos only notify of changes in email so many don't check their email because they go straight to the casino site. And it can keep them from knowing if there is a change in the rules.

A player always has many things that he can achieve , among which he must be very Careful because if the players change and they do not realize it, it is likely that when they go to make withdrawals or do other types of contests, they will be taken by surprise Sometimes one when I play is not aware of the announcements they make, Because we only concentrate on playing, that is a classic, then surprises come, that is something very Common , I am not one to be Aware , but now that this Thread they talk about so Many things is a very good way to take care of my Interests.

If they never want to check the rules, they can miss the information if there is a change in the rules, and they can have difficulties when they want to withdraw the money. Even though we don't chase victory either, we also have to check the rules regularly to adjust properly because if we are lucky, we can win a lot of money. And if we don't check the rules before playing and it turns out that we win a lot of money, that can make us have to do something to be able to withdraw the winning money. So there's nothing wrong if we check the rules so we won't be disappointed later.

lienfaye

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Quote from: khaled0111 on June 18, 2023, 05:58:00 PM

Quote from: lienfaye on June 18, 2023, 12:20:02 AM

Many gamblers are not reading the rules and just acknowledge it to create an account. It's quite normal for many of us to directly play and not taking time to read what's written on their ToS thinking that casinos are often have similar ToS. This is the player's fault if he/she is not aware of the rules for being lazy.

In that case, if you break one of the rules out of ignorance and the casino bans your account or confiscate your money then there is no one to blame but yourself.
The good thing about casinos is that they have pretty much the same terms except minor differences. So when reading the ToS you have to focus only on what concerns you and what you believe might be different from the casino's you are familiar with.

Indeed. It's really a must to read the casino's terms of service to know their rules. This way if you don't agree or you're not comfortable on some of their rules then you can switch playing to other casinos that best suits you. Aside from this, it's wise also to check the reviews of the particular platform to know the experience of other gamblers to help you decide if it's a good choice to stay or look for another.

Anyway, if you don't want to have headaches due to your laziness for not doing the basic things to do before playing, then always take time to read the ToS. Because this can save you from violating the rules that might hinder you to withdraw your profit if ever you win huge.

Blitzboy

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Quote from: khaled0111 on June 18, 2023, 05:58:00 PM

Quote from: lienfaye on June 18, 2023, 12:20:02 AM

Many gamblers are not reading the rules and just acknowledge it to create an account. It's quite normal for many of us to directly play and not taking time to read what's written on their ToS thinking that casinos are often have similar ToS. This is the player's fault if he/she is not aware of the rules for being lazy.

In that case, if you break one of the rules out of ignorance and the casino bans your account or confiscate your money then there is no one to blame but yourself.
The good thing about casinos is that they have pretty much the same terms except minor differences. So when reading the ToS you have to focus only on what concerns you and what you believe might be different from the casino's you are familiar with.

Overlooking a casino's rules, deliberately or accidentally, can invite unwanted outcomes. Many casinos do share similar service terms, but we should stay alert to subtle differences. Prioritizing the review of clauses affecting our gaming or transactions is wise. Let's remember, gambling is about balancing risk and reward. Knowing the game's rules and playing sensibly can enhance enjoyment while reducing risks.

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Quote from: lienfaye on June 18, 2023, 12:20:02 AM

Many gamblers are not reading the rules and just acknowledge it to create an account. It's quite normal for many of us to directly play and not taking time to read what's written on their ToS thinking that casinos are often have similar ToS. This is the player's fault if he/she is not aware of the rules for being lazy.

In that case, if you break one of the rules out of ignorance and the casino bans your account or confiscate your money then there is no one to blame but yourself.
The good thing about casinos is that they have pretty much the same terms except minor differences. So when reading the ToS you have to focus only on what concerns you and what you believe might be different from the casino's you are familiar with.

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Quote from: khaled0111 on June 17, 2023, 06:53:34 PM

^^
Not reading the ToS is not an excuse.
It doesn't matter why you didn't read the ToS of the service, but if you are going to be punished then you should assume it. The terms where there in front if you and you signed with the service and acknowledged that you agree with its terms.
If they find you guilty of breaching those terms then there isn't much anyone can do. You are at fault here and you should assume your responsibilities.

Therefore, you do end up on just simply accepting those consequences even though it does hurt but its really that your fault and there's no one you could really blame on. Casinos or platforms would really be

highlighting on what you have done and on the time that you had agreed or tick up that checkbox on those terms and conditions then it does mean that you do agree in whats stated on there.

Most of us would really be just simply skipping out on reading everything which i couldn't really blame out because we are really just that too lazy and in a hurry on playing gambling
and this is why most users or players would really be definitely do miss out on reading those important points but of course we dont really mind most of the time.
We do just simply tick out and play right away and if the time comes that those terms had changed then there's nothing we can do.

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Quote from: khaled0111 on June 17, 2023, 06:53:34 PM

^^
Not reading the ToS is not an excuse.

True that, the registration page make sure to remind us to read the TOS but due to laziness most of us just click the box confirming we read the TOS even without actually reading it and proceed with the registration.

Quote from: khaled0111 on June 17, 2023, 06:53:34 PM

If they find you guilty of breaching those terms then there isn't much anyone can do. You are at fault here and you should assume your responsibilities.

If someone got caught breaching the TOS, the casino will ask for the KYC first then proceed with the ban or suspension.

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Quote from: maydna on June 18, 2023, 07:47:07 AM

Quote from: rozak on June 17, 2023, 10:24:15 PM

Quote from: khaled0111 on June 17, 2023, 06:53:34 PM

^^
Not reading the ToS is not an excuse.
It doesn't matter why you didn't read the ToS of the service, but if you are going to be punished then you should assume it. The terms where there in front if you and you signed with the service and acknowledged that you agree with its terms.
If they find you guilty of breaching those terms then there isn't much anyone can do. You are at fault here and you should assume your responsibilities.

yes, if the ToS is approved at the beginning we create an account on the gambling platform, then it will be our fault if we violate the conditions we have agreed to.
but if there is a ToS change and the platform does not make a notification on the web or their social media. then of course it needs to be questioned. because usually an exchange platform also makes a notification if there is a change in their terms. or any application usually sends emails regarding changes to some conditions. and if we still don't read it, of course, it will be our fault.

Gamblers often underestimate this by not reading notification emails or when they enter the casino because usually, there must be a small or big window notifying them of the change. And if they weren't alert or didn't understand, they would just close the window and go straight to the game. But some casinos only notify of changes in email so many don't check their email because they go straight to the casino site. And it can keep them from knowing if there is a change in the rules.

A player always has many things that he can achieve , among which he must be very Careful because if the players change and they do not realize it, it is likely that when they go to make withdrawals or do other types of contests, they will be taken by surprise Sometimes one when I play is not aware of the announcements they make, Because we only concentrate on playing, that is a classic, then surprises come, that is something very Common , I am not one to be Aware , but now that this Thread they talk about so Many things is a very good way to take care of my Interests.

Fivestar4everMVP

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Quote from: Docnaster on June 18, 2023, 02:59:38 PM

Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

I have not had an idea of the allegations you stated above but reading it seems to me like something that can happen
And that could be termed a criminal offence.
This very attitude can be checked before it becomes rampant and the best way to check it is to ensure that all casino owners make their ToS downloadable so that on registering, I will download and have my own copy of the agreement

This is a great idea, but the problem is, how many casinos will get this done? I do have come across some platforms where their terms and conditions are downloadable, but I've never seen such on any casino I've used previously and presently.

What I do some times wile reading a terms and conditions of a casino is to screenshot a part I think is very sensitive, and save the shot on my Google drive, this way, can always go back to the shot anytime it seems to me something changed.

And again, it is also very possible to copy the entire terms and conditions and paste it on a text editor, and from there, you can easily convert and save it as a pdf file.

Docnaster

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Quote from: KiaKia on May 25, 2023, 07:48:32 AM

Changing of terms and conditions without notifying the users or gamblers is normal with online gambling websites? Then when you did something wrong or about to withdraw your money they will tell you that you don't read their terms and conditions, and you start arguing with them until you decide to read the ToS again and you find out that it's different.

Some gambling websites consist of wicked owners that willingly plan to defraud their users using the ToS against them, or is this normal? Have such happened to anyone on this forum before?

I have not had an idea of the allegations you stated above but reading it seems to me like something that can happen
And that could be termed a criminal offence.
This very attitude can be checked before it becomes rampant and the best way to check it is to ensure that all casino owners make their ToS downloadable so that on registering, I will download and have my own copy of the agreement

jostorres

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Quote from: khaled0111 on June 17, 2023, 06:53:34 PM

Not reading the ToS is not an excuse.
It doesn't matter why you didn't read the ToS of the service, but if you are going to be punished then you should assume it. The terms where there in front if you and you signed with the service and acknowledged that you agree with its terms.
If they find you guilty of breaching those terms then there isn't much anyone can do. You are at fault here and you should assume your responsibilities.

Most gamblers don't understand that and they simply ignore the terms and conditions when they sign up, when someone doesn't know the rules and regulations and dos and don'ts of a platform, they will surely get in trouble at some point and they start complaining after something happens and the casino takes some action against them or don't let them withdraw their funds or something similar happens.

That is when they realize that they made a mistake by not reading the terms and conditions at the beginning when they joined the platform, or they wouldn't get in trouble right now if they had read them in the first place, but still, very few gamblers learn from their mistakes and don't repeat them.

maydna

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Quote from: rozak on June 17, 2023, 10:24:15 PM

Quote from: khaled0111 on June 17, 2023, 06:53:34 PM

^^
Not reading the ToS is not an excuse.
It doesn't matter why you didn't read the ToS of the service, but if you are going to be punished then you should assume it. The terms where there in front if you and you signed with the service and acknowledged that you agree with its terms.
If they find you guilty of breaching those terms then there isn't much anyone can do. You are at fault here and you should assume your responsibilities.

yes, if the ToS is approved at the beginning we create an account on the gambling platform, then it will be our fault if we violate the conditions we have agreed to.
but if there is a ToS change and the platform does not make a notification on the web or their social media. then of course it needs to be questioned. because usually an exchange platform also makes a notification if there is a change in their terms. or any application usually sends emails regarding changes to some conditions. and if we still don't read it, of course, it will be our fault.

Gamblers often underestimate this by not reading notification emails or when they enter the casino because usually, there must be a small or big window notifying them of the change. And if they weren't alert or didn't understand, they would just close the window and go straight to the game. But some casinos only notify of changes in email so many don't check their email because they go straight to the casino site. And it can keep them from knowing if there is a change in the rules.

Topic: Using ToS against users normal? - page 13. (Read 2954 times)