Topic: Why do Atheists Hate Religion? - page 314. (Read 901519 times)

If you mean fiction in the Journals...

Who cares? It isn't the individual words that are fictional. After all, words have real meaning.

It may not be some facts in the Journals that are fictional. All science fiction has a little (sometimes a lot) fact in it to make it realistic.

And who knows if you are lying about the Journals or not, when you say that they express that you can get to Heaven by works. Nobody needs the Journals for that, even if the Journals truly say that, because people can have the Bible that has been around for a long time for that.


This question is not answerable because it seems to be based on an assumption that suggests that I have such a need.


Nobody knows that any stories in the Bible are fictional. Traditionally, the Hebrew people say that they are real. This tradition has been handed down, parents to children, from the times that they happened, through the ages. The fictional stories are the ones that tried to get into the Bible, but that you won't find within it, because the test of any so-called prophet that tried to push such a story into the Bible, showed that he wasn't a prophet, and so the story was left out.

I can understand how you would find terror in the story of Abraham that you mentioned. Anybody believing in the Journals should be terrified when he sees God in action.


The fact that you are alive, shows that Jesus is your Savior for this life. He is the only reason that the earth, and probably the universe, remained, in the face of the sin of mankind back near the Beginning.

Will Jesus be your Savior for eternity? That's a question, the answer to which, remains to be seen.


I was not aware that I had a "Doctrine of Paul." What evidence do you have that I have such a doctrine?

If you are talking about salvation by Jesus, you are mistaken in your understanding. The fact is, you can do nothing to gain salvation. Nobody has the strength that it takes to do something that will gain him/her salvation. If people had such strength, the ones that did would prove it by living, say, 500 years or more in this life. That still wouldn't prove it, but it would be a start.


That I am aware of, I have not proposed this, nor am I proposing it now. Why do you keep trying to twist things? The fact that you continually attempt to twist things, shows exactly what is to be expected for someone steeped in the Journals... constant twisting, simply because their base is false.


Anyone who doesn't profess to salvation by Jesus as is taught in the Bible, and especially if he speaks against it, any truth he has is incidental, and he is promoting damnation for all who follow him.


Does it matter Who I serve? You serve the devil or a host of devils.


If you are talking about the Bible here, I only have a couple of copies.

The history of the people of Israel, and how the Bible was put together over the hundreds of years that it took, and how God has kept the teaching alive, and how the Holy Spirit works through the words of the Bible, show that the Bible can't exist. It is impossible for a book like the Bible to exist by the odds. Because of this, there is strength in it.



God most certainly has sent messengers just as He promised. All you need do to see what they have to say is read the Bible.

The commands to follow the moral laws are not the point. Many religions have moral commands in whatever law they express. Let me state again. It isn't the laws, or the learning of the laws, or the keeping of the laws that counts. Rather, it is the keeping of the laws PERFECTLY that counts.

How can we tell when someone has kept the laws perfectly? We can tell when we see a person who does not die.

How can we tell when a person has the strength of God? We can tell this if, when he dies, he then comes back to life in such a way that He cannot die again, forever.

There is only One Person Who has done this. It is Jesus Christ of the Bible.

I never set up anything. 

Your entire religion is based off fraud.   

Whatever cryptodevil is saying here doesn't really matter... except for one point. That point boils down to this: The only evidence you have for any of the blabber you say being fact, is that you call it evidence or fact. There is nothing else.

In other words, the Phoenix Journals may literally be written down, but the only evidence you have for them being fact is, you say they are fact.

Why should anyone believe you? You want us to get in there and read them so that we can see that they are fact? Silly boy. Doc Savage is far more entertaining. At least if anything you have had to say so far is a real example of what is found in the Journals.

Jesus never set up a church nor a "Vicar", and certainly not a bank;
however, Papal Supremacy is evident in the political realm,
that is why The Vatican is not a party to The Hague Apostille Convention;
it is basically The Vatican's Law called "Private International Law".

The Church of Rome has been responsible for a lot of the EVIL in the world today; please give this letter some thought:
http://scannedretina.com/2014/07/19/anna-addresses-cardinal-george/

Jesus said "For behold the kingdom of God is within you." So, the kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and therefore needs only a spiritual head or king.

I advise you to double-check the facts of the matter, for you are placing your faith in a false authority; God's kingdom is not in The Vatican, it is within YOU.

If you want to discuss with me about the Pope, you will have to use reason; argument from authority will not convince anyone but the gullible.

Exactly: that is called respect.

Quoting myself:

The pope is just my little bitch, for I am the one true Vod.

I lost faith in this conversation.

What's the point of discussing that when there is a person on this planet that is the vicar of Jesus Christ.

That person is the Pope.


Thank You.

Hi BADecker,
What exactly is so fictional about these writings, and how do you judge this to be so?
Why is it that you would need to assert that God used the hand of many different men to add content to the Gospels because "they were incomplete the first time around"?
And why all of the fictional stories in the Bible--like the one where the child Isaac is terrorized and threatened with death so that God can "teach his father a lesson"?
Then, you allege that Jesus is my savior even though he never suggested that; your "Doctrine of Paul" states something to the effect, "You need do NOTHING to receive God's Blessings and Grace". This sounds a bit like the "just BE" philosophy of many New Agers, does it not?

Furthermore, do you not propose that we all join a church and therefore a cult?


So, Hatonn serves God of Light, the Christ Truth.
Who do YOU serve, BADecker?
Why would you assert that your book is truth and mine is not when you don't even have any facts to support that claim?
Why do you reject outright the possibility that God may have sent messengers JUST AS PROMISED?

Hey! I don't hate science fiction. Science fiction can be fun. However, I must admit that in my older age, I am becoming more serious, which is taking some of the fun out of science fiction.

The creation story in Genesis shows that the material that things in space were made out of comes from the earth. This makes martian material exactly as old as earth material.

When you believe science fiction to be the truth - 1aguar believing the Phoenix Journals - you have a religion. In the case of the Phoenix Journals, it is more like a cult.

Water on Mars was disclosed in 1991 in Phoenix Journal #33:

"Mars has grown very much older [than Earth]. It still has water but oxygen-dependent life is nearing its end upon it. Deserts take up a large area of it and it is more oblate than the earth."

Meanwhile, atheists like cryptodevil and fundamentalists like BADecker would like to ignore the evidence before their very eyes. They tell you not to read these Journals because the books are "stupid"; however, I am not promoting a religion, so why do they hate this information?  

Introduction to the writings:
http://www.phoenixsourcedistributors.com/html/gch.html
The Journal in point; also available via Google Books:
http://www.phoenixsourcedistributors.com/html/j033/

It matters not what you think about anything else, what is relevant in our discussion is the Phoenix Journals--are they based on hypergraphia? WHY? What evidence supports this? Who has read them all (or even a substantial amount) and evaluated that they are delusional writings, and for what reason?


What is your criticism of the science in these papers from PLOS ONE and Elsevier? I am willing to look at anyone's criticism of these two papers!

questions smelling pros and cons. I can not argumeent .

If you do not want to counter each and every piece of evidence that I have provided you with then you have not provided reason to reject every single point of evidence that I propose. Therefore, I have evidence to support my view and you do not, you are merely proposing stories without proposing a reason to discredit the evidence. For example, you did not point out what is wrong with the Mereon Matrix, you merely suggested that it could be wrong... no science can stand up to that kind of criticism, that is like saying "it could be wrong for reasons we don't yet know about".

I did not read it; I would rather you bother yourself with giving reason to dismiss each point of evidence that I referenced; after you get through these 52, we can move on to other evidence that I am familiar with.

What would qualify as "recorded history"?
Who said that the Journals were channeled? I believe that I stated that they were not...
Who said that the messengers Hatonn, Sananda, and others are time-travelers; where are you getting this??

Fair enough; I still contend that people having NDE have brought back valid scientific knowledge, as explained in that link.

Oh? Do enlighten us!

Believe you me, I am rational and willing to provisionally accept that Mellen-Thomas Benedict is a liar. Now, that still does not refute the point that people having NDE have brought back valid scientific knowledge, nor have you "wasted your time" in evaluating all points of evidence on that page. Not even close.

he is a liar because he lies about something he dosent has and claims that only he has it.
newton didn't did that ,anyone could have done that..

I am not countering with 'evidence' I am countering with an explanation for why what you consider to be 'evidence' does not qualify as such.

Big difference.

Let me give you an example:

You show me a room full of a hundred people sitting at desks frantically tapping away on computer keyboards, writing. You say that they all claim to be 'channelling' information from time-travelling space beings. I say to you that there is no reason to believe they are not simply experiencing the neurological disorder, 'hypergraphia' as it is a recognised disorder and a condition which affects a small percentage of the population, often for a relatively short period of time. You respond by saying, "Ok, I'll accept that the majority are probably suffering from that condition but I will insist that at least one of them must be genuinely channelling information from time-travelling space beings.

Trouble is, you have no basis for asserting such a thing when there is long recorded history of recognising and understanding the medical condition, 'hypergraphia' in humans, many of whom claim to be writing some sort of 'secret knowledge' and there is absolutely no recorded history of it being found, instead, to be a case of a human being channelling information from time-travelling space beings.


Another example would be the wild claims made by Mellen-Thomas Benedict, if you read the actual full thread I linked to which breaks down in more detail where the many, many problems with his claims are, a similar position to the above is reached. We have a long and recorded history of people claiming they have experienced something 'mystical', but no objective evidence of such a thing actually occurring. He lays claim to having been lauded by medical science for miraculously being able to describe some genetic 'fix' that needed to be made and how they were all congratulating him months later when it turned out he had helped them achieve some incredible scientific leaps of progress. Conveniently, however, he pulls a 'Josh Garza' and makes sure to throw in how he had to signed various Non-disclosure agreements which ensures that neither he nor any of the scientists he said he worked with are allowed to discuss anything about his 'miraculous insight'.

The only 'evidence' you have for his claims are his claims, which is known as the fallacy of 'circular reasoning'. Therefore it is not acceptable as evidence.

Every single 'scientific' point that NDE website cites as 'proof' is grossly flawed. We've been here before and unless you are willing to strike out each one I objectively debunk, I am not going to waste my time doing so only for you to go back and cite them again because you're incapable of rational thought and unwilling to recognise that you are probably caught up in the 'sunk cost' fallacy, which is the fact you have expended so much time and energy in making this a core element of your identity and belief that you would rather maintain intellectual dishonesty in the face of critical analysis than accept the actual truth.

That's so true. Most of the Christians are more liberal today so I don't know why anyone would post the things about Islam... but I guess you never know.

You're reading an English language forum, what did you expect?  Everyone knows Christianity is the official religion of English.

Most of that post is just making up stories about why that evidence might be wrong without really investigating the evidence or by backing up stories with facts. Even if all that you said is correct, I think you have not done an adequate job at refuting any of the points on the near-death site, nor have you given cause to consider the possibility of hypergraphia in the case of the Phoenix Journals. You base your beliefs upon assumptions which are unstated, then give inadequate stories as explanations without considering all of the circumstantial evidence and the possibility of new paradigms.

I'm going to regret this, I know, because this thread has long become the stomping ground of the delusional, the clinically insane and the downright dangerous (I recall catching a comment a while back from some psycho stating that he believed atheists should die. WTF?)

But, here goes, this is directed at Bl4kjaguar, a guy who bases his belief on the validity of "The Phoenix Journals" by way of stating how an old lady wrote a shit-ton of books during a short period, so, you know, totallymustbelegit, while he absolutely ignores the fact that the psychological disorder, Hypergraphia, is far more likely behind these writings and, asides from that, they are just rambling bullshit.


This entire site, the very crux of your belief, no, your insistence that SCIENCE has proven that our mind is capable of survival after brain death, is grossly flawed due to the fact that it is absolutely chock full of argument fallacies.

Why, for example do they put such stock in citing such irrelevance as,
Elsevier has has been exposed a number of times for having published fake journals. But, in any event, it is an, 'Appeal to authority' fallacy. The publisher is irrelevant if the paper still fails critical analysis.

Other citations, such as articles from plosone.org, are also not immune from criticism:
Publication does not equal peer-review-approval. In fact it doesn't equal peer-reviewed anything, because it doesn't have to be peer-reviewed, hence the fact that plosone.org contains a great many 'research' papers that are simply appallingly bad science.

Let me give you an example of how easy it is to shred those absurd pieces of 'evidence' you like to insist are valid data. See http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence.html#a20 Mellen-Thomas Benedict, a guy who came up with an idea for improving the design of a fucking glass-cutter and claims to have assisted in huge scientific medical breakthoughs:
Except, of course, outside of his book, they ALWAYS have a book to sell, there is no valid reference to him doing ANY of this. To save on thread space, here is a full debunking of that charlatan: http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23994

Bl4kjaguar, either you are genuinely wanting to establish the truth of the matter, in which case you will want to seriously consider the actual fact that the websites you base your 'knowledge' on are shockingly poor references for anything objectively scientific, or you are so far gone into full blown psychotic delusion that you will refuse to consider you may be wrong and that you have accepted the word of people for whom there is profit in convincing people like you to believe their stories.

Yes, but, many have used screwdrivers to turn their bar time into a religion.