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Topic: why do people agree to pay taxes? - page 115. (Read 51023 times)

hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 500
January 05, 2015, 04:19:21 PM
lol I liked the mises lecture on the Roman empire and how undermining their own currency with debasement brought about the fall into ruin of many essential parts of Roman society such as citizenship.  In the end the cost of their government was so great, people were better off having their town fall under the 'savages' control then continue to have to pay a majority of their worth not just income to the centrally biased sections of the empire.
    Seemed fair point and comparable to today not hype as we can trace the falling currency value of the actual coin metal percentage

The same can be said to all countries rule by a huge State.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
January 05, 2015, 02:35:59 PM
>thinks education = brainwashing
>calls people clueless

That gas u huffed instead of getting brainwashed in school?  Guess u were 2 cheap to buy unleaded Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
I got Satoshi's avatar!
January 05, 2015, 01:27:22 PM
^^^ You have no clue, I have not lost a single cent in bitcoin... I'm still doing very well thanks... perhaps you should actually watch the video and you'll realize that he really does know what he's talking about!
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
January 05, 2015, 01:07:00 PM
John Gatto explains it perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxCuc-2tfgk

The only reason for school is to program future behavior to authority...

There might be other reasons, but don't let that distract you from huffing gas, whining about taxes & losing money in Bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
I got Satoshi's avatar!
January 05, 2015, 01:02:15 PM
John Gatto explains it perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxCuc-2tfgk

The only reason for school is to program future behavior to authority...
STT
legendary
Activity: 4102
Merit: 1454
January 05, 2015, 12:24:44 AM
lol I liked the mises lecture on the Roman empire and how undermining their own currency with debasement brought about the fall into ruin of many essential parts of Roman society such as citizenship.  In the end the cost of their government was so great, people were better off having their town fall under the 'savages' control then continue to have to pay a majority of their worth not just income to the centrally biased sections of the empire.
    Seemed fair point and comparable to today not hype as we can trace the falling currency value of the actual coin metal percentage
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 03, 2015, 02:37:17 PM
^
>Your diagram
Not my diagram.  It is Wikipedia's diagram.  It is a part of the FAQ created to avoid arguments about shit that has been discussed to death, like the one we're having now.  It's a sad fact that you've managed to remain this ignorant with the entire interwebs' worth of knowledge at your fingertips Sad

>mises.org
There's your problem right there.  That's where crazy goes to lay eggs.  You might as well learn history from stormfront.org.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
January 03, 2015, 12:59:56 PM
Your diagram remind me how the term "liberal" was hijacked with time... which is why we are using the term libertarian. There is no "left or right", either you believe in NAP and that monopoly of violence should not be handled over to a central authority, either you don't. There is simple clear cut.

Marxist communist is not libertarianism. (even if they share the belief of no powerful central authority)
My definition in your circle is the "right libertarian" one but I do not recognize the hijacked categorization of the other movements.

So here is my source : http://mises.org/sites/default/files/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto_3.pdf, page 275 to 290.

In case you are lazy to read his point here are some extract.
Regarding Celting Ireland and the king :

Quote
The king was elected by the tuath from within a royal kin-group (the derbfine), which carried the hereditary priestly function. Politically , however, the king had strictly limited functions: he was the military leader of the tuath, and he presided over the tuath assemblies. But he could only conduct war or peace negotiations as agent of the assemblies; and he was in no sense sovereign and had no rights of administering justice over tuath members.
[...]
He could not legislate, and when he himslef was party to a lawsuit, he had to submit his case to an independant judicial arbitrer.

Regarding 1900 in the US :

Quote
By 1900, voluntary arbitration began to take hold in the United States. In fact, in medieval England, the entire structure of merchant law, which was handled clumsily and inefficiently by the government’s courts, grew up in private merchants’ courts. The merchants’ courts were purely voluntary arbitrators, and the decisions were not legally binding. How, then, were they successful?

The answer is that the merchants, in the Middle Ages and down to 1920, relied solely on ostracism and boycott by the other merchants in the area.

More recently :

Quote
In modern times, ostracism became even more effective, and it included the knowledge that anyone who ignored an arbitrator’s award could never again avail himself of an arbitrator’s services. Industrialist Owen D. Young, head of General Electric, concluded that the moral censure of other businessmen was a far more effective sanction than legal enforcement. Nowadays, modern technology, computers, and credit ratings would make such nationwide ostracism even more effective than it has ever been in the past.

God thanks my taxes pays a judicial system, how society would work without them ?! This is the response. (he goes deeper on other kind of dispute than commercial one, so take the time to read the book)

So take the time to read those 15 pages. It is not because there is central authority that they hold justice power in their hand.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 03, 2015, 07:36:52 AM
>libertarianism better defined than statism
Because statism is not an ideology. 

>Ireland til 1970 was libertarian
No, you're just trolling.  Educate yourself:
800–1169 covers the period in the history of Ireland from the first Viking raids to the Norman invasion.
1169–1536 covers the period from the arrival of the Cambro-Normans to the reign of Henry VIII of England, who made himself King of Ireland.
1536–1691 saw the first full conquest of the island by England and its colonisation with Protestant settlers from Britain. This established two central themes in future Irish history – subordination of the country to London based governments

>the beginning of United Start [sic]
British colony until federal republic.  Amazing ignorance.

>supreme court is a historical anomaly
Sure is.  The word of the king/sultan/fearless leader being the highest law is far more common. 

>Private arbitration between 1900 and 1920 were the main way were business settled dispute in the middle age and down to 1920.[sic]

Wat 

>Libertarianism without private property is NOT libertarianism.

Learn to libertarianism.  From the FAQ on wikip libertarianism "talk" page:



If you're trolling, gg, you got me.  If not:  Mankind, I'm disappoint Sad
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
January 03, 2015, 03:37:50 AM
Quote
Libertarianism is a vague, umbrella term for a slew of ideas, most of them focusing on things Libertarians are against, rather than for.  Only one thing could be said about Libertarianism objectively:  No libertarian societies exist today or have ever existed...

Well, it it less vague than the statist part. Read Rothbard he is terrific to my opinion.
Libertarian societies existed in the past and Rothbard gives example of it.

Celtic Ireland until the seventeenth century (more than thousand of year of libertarianism), the beginning of United Start (the influence of the state was negligible at the start)
For the private court, there was the Romans, also Anglo Saxon law was developed by competing judge, not by state decree. (ref "the law and the courts" in "For a New liberty" of Rothbard)

The concept of supreme court were judged are appointed by state is the anomaly of history. Not the other way around.

Private arbitration between 1900 and 1920 were the main way were business settled dispute in the middle age and down to 1920. Enforcement relied on consent or ostracism and boycott.

Quote
Libertarians appropriate many important thinkers like Proudhon, who believed that property was theft,
Libertarianism without private property is NOT libertarianism. The first principle of libertarian is Non Aggression Principle.
Before we can decide what is considered Aggression, you need the concept of property.
Anarchist than don't want the concept of property are closer to communism than libertarians. (Marxist communism consider state ownership an issue. But it seems this forms always tended to state ownership)

I would say that Marxists are nearer from libertarians than we are from statists. But without individual property, the wealth will always tend to accumulate in the hand of those with political power, which is why I believe it did not work.

Quote
...thus limiting libertarianism debates to teh purely theoretical, hypothetical realm.
Both Christianity and Communism are great in theory.
As I said, there are many case of libertarianism in history.
Nowadays dark net is a living proof that commerce without force enforcement is still possible.
School is even worse. The worse it is the costlier it becomes. A kid with internet would kick his teacher ass quick. (to which I point to http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_shows_how_kids_teach_themselves?language=en)
And to my experience as teacher/trainer myself.

The cost/benefit of government services is not worth it, and make everybody poorer by force. (which is why I am against taxation, since protest, nor breaking the law will help, I'll just find my way for subsidy to fall in the right pocket)
If it appears like religion, it is more because we can't make justice the the work of hayek, mises and rothbard in a forum post. However I like to see if their point can be discussed, and I have not seen it yet, except with the argument "it does not exist anymore, so it does not work".
hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 500
January 02, 2015, 05:48:20 PM
You are using an established system. Everyone uses the government's system in one way or another. So you have to pay for that in a way.
Right. It would not be fair for the government to provide you with something and for you to not have to pay for it

Well,government build many infrastructure,so the people can use it
I think it's pretty normal for us to pay taxes

We don't need the government to provide a service that will end up being of poor quality and high price
member
Activity: 105
Merit: 10
January 02, 2015, 11:09:16 AM
You are using an established system. Everyone uses the government's system in one way or another. So you have to pay for that in a way.
Right. It would not be fair for the government to provide you with something and for you to not have to pay for it

Well,government build many infrastructure,so the people can use it
I think it's pretty normal for us to pay taxes
full member
Activity: 346
Merit: 102
January 02, 2015, 03:02:14 AM
You are using an established system. Everyone uses the government's system in one way or another. So you have to pay for that in a way.
Right. It would not be fair for the government to provide you with something and for you to not have to pay for it
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
January 01, 2015, 07:39:53 PM

if enough armed people refused to pay and told the government to go fuck itself there is nothing they could do.

True, but sadly this will never happen because most people don't care.

That's called a revolution. It's happened before, and it will happen again. Unfortunately, the new government usually ends up collecting taxes too.
...

Then I'll get on my knees and praaaaay
http://webspace.webring.com/people/ov/viciousinterlude/SGandPete.jpg
*catches some air*
we WON'T get GET fooled agAiN!!1!
*turns perfectly good SG into firewood*
YAAAAH!!!!11!
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
AKA The Rubber Monkey
January 01, 2015, 07:02:32 PM

if enough armed people refused to pay and told the government to go fuck itself there is nothing they could do.

True, but sadly this will never happen because most people don't care.

That's called a revolution. It's happened before, and it will happen again. Unfortunately, the new government usually ends up collecting taxes too.

It's been said that the only sure things are death and taxes. If you can figure out how to get rid of death, you just might be smart enough to find a way to get rid of taxes too. I have a feeling that we are stuck with both however.
hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 500
January 01, 2015, 04:42:53 PM
You are using an established system. Everyone uses the government's system in one way or another. So you have to pay for that in a way.

If you don't agree to pay taxes, the money is taken away from you against your will by threat. A lot of us don't agree to how the taxes are used because they are wasted and a public service end up being more expensive for a lower quality than if it was provided by the private sector.
legendary
Activity: 2828
Merit: 1515
January 01, 2015, 03:49:07 PM
You are using an established system. Everyone uses the government's system in one way or another. So you have to pay for that in a way.
member
Activity: 86
Merit: 10
Surfbort.
January 01, 2015, 12:35:10 PM
why is it ok for a group of people calling themselves the government to force everyone to buy their services?

I actually think taxes are ok and good for society, but not the way they're currently dished out.

if enough armed people refused to pay and told the government to go fuck itself there is nothing they could do.

True, but sadly this will never happen because most people don't care.
hero member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 500
January 01, 2015, 12:23:22 PM
People agree to pay taxes because they think it is needed or because they are afraid to be thrown in jail.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
January 01, 2015, 11:44:46 AM
Aha, you "discovered" libertarianism late in life, and, like a born-again Christian still flushed with rapture, you can't wait to share The Good News.
The reason you have trouble finding people willing to debate your "libertarian" thinkings is not unlike the reason born-agains have trouble finding willing victims to discuss Christianity: It would be an exercise in frustration and futility, much like debating theology with a rusty bucket.



Libertarianism is a vague, umbrella term for a slew of ideas, most of them focusing on things Libertarians are against, rather than for.  Only one thing could be said about Libertarianism objectively:  No libertarian societies exist today or have ever existed...

...thus limiting libertarianism debates to teh purely theoretical, hypothetical realm.
Both Christianity and Communism are great in theory.

Libertarians appropriate many important thinkers like Proudhon, who believed that property was theft,
"The proprietor, the robber, the hero, the sovereign — for all these titles are synonymous — imposes his will as law, and suffers neither contradiction nor control; that is, he pretends to be the legislative and the executive power at once . . . [and so] property engenders despotism . . . "

without actually subscribing to the basic tenets that make the philosophies of said thinkers intrinsically consistent.

TL;DR:  I'm glad you've found validation for your antisocial, reactionary ideals in what you consider to be Libertarianism, but I'm not sure what it is you're asking folks to do.  Mebby trot them out one at a time, I'll see what I can do.
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