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Topic: why do people agree to pay taxes? - page 128. (Read 50995 times)

kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
November 17, 2014, 02:46:39 AM
Wow.  Speaking of poorly reasoned and flat out wrong, have you read your own post?  Hard to pack so much wrong into one sentence.  The "health insurance" sentence, if you are wondering which line of statist bullshit you are repeating without thinking.
  Roll Eyes Yawn. The need to label arguments as statist is a crutch. People like finding something to hate, and they give it fake form through loaded terms like "statist". Such nonsense.

I have a spade in my garage.  Calling it a spade doesn't mean that I hate it.  Based on your response, it looks like I got your name right too...

A name is an implicit reference to an internal ideal (in the Platonic sense).  That reference may be a "false form" in a philosophy class, but in the real world, most people would consider naming to be a useful tool.

From the victim's point of view, it doesn't matter a whole lot if I drive off the road and through his house during an accident, or if I intentionally burn it down during a criminal act of arson. 
Sure, possibly. From a financial point of view, the cost of the destroyed goods would be the same. But a civil case could involve punitive measures stemming from malice, negligence, etc. I'm not sure what you're trying to get across with this one?

There is a reason that you don't get the point.

Why do you favor mandatory car insurance*, but not "I'm a criminal" insurance?  Or do you?  In both cases there is "inflict incredibly costly damage" and "unable to make equitable relief".
Because operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, and not a right. By agreeing to use public roads, operators can be compelled to play by rules that are mutually beneficial. In my mind, the shared cost of insurance mitigates the potential for catastrophic loss for any single person/family by essentially guaranteeing that equitable relief can be made. If Freedom Joe is driving drunk and has no insurance because he's gallderned free and the MAN can't hold him down and force him to get insurance because that ain't freedom, and he wipes out a family home but has nothing in the bank, that family is out of luck. With a system of insurance, and a tort component, that family has the ability to seek relief.

Why does the family home not have insurance?  Surely the owner understands that they face non-zero risks from many sources, not just your cliched redneck...

If the argument is that the driver must carry insurance because they might cause damage through accident or neglect, why does that not extend to making the driver also carry insurance to cover damage they might do through crime?  By what principle do you draw the line?

Logic always catches the unwary.  If the potential to cause "catastrophic loss" is a reason to force a person to carry insurance, surely that should apply to all potential catastrophic loss, right?  The loser feels the loss all the same, without regard to how or why the losee did it.  Why must the losee make advance preparations to help the loser recover from one loss, but not the other?

May I suggest that your guiding principle may perhaps be that one is already common, so you support it, while the other shows the absurd conclusion to your arguments, so you deny it?  I've seen this movie before.  We all know how it ends.

Why can't the owner of the valuable thing purchase insurance to protect their assets instead?
So, you favor anti-criminal insurance? How does that work? That's shifting the burden out of pure idealism, which is both confusing and stupid.

I have insurance that protects me against criminal actions done against my self and my property.  Surely you do too, if you aren't homeless.  If you find that concept confusing, perhaps you can use a nearby shiny surface to locate the source of the stupid.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1031
RIP Mommy
November 17, 2014, 02:20:42 AM
I bet the people belly aching about taxes are the people that barely pay any taxes.  

The people who barely pay any taxes pay tens, hundreds of millions of dollars for lawyers, lobbyists, and bribes, so they do not have to fear death or imprisonment, and therefore no reason to "bellyache".
Not true. The people who pay little taxes are those who vote for more entitlements and make a huge deal about even tiny amounts of potential entitlement reform (meaning the democrats)

Are these "entitlements" exemptions from sales, alcohol, cigarette, marijuana, gas taxes?
full member
Activity: 1834
Merit: 166
November 17, 2014, 01:38:54 AM
You mean like making folks pay for insurance because they may kill someone or inflict incredibly costly damage, and be unable to make equitable relief?

Or maybe making folks pay for health insurance because the cost to society would be orders of magnitude greater if they utilized public facilities for major surgery while uninsured?

That image is an oversimplification. It's poorly reasoned, and flat out wrong.
Wow.  Speaking of poorly reasoned and flat out wrong, have you read your own post?  Hard to pack so much wrong into one sentence.  The "health insurance" sentence, if you are wondering which line of statist bullshit you are repeating without thinking.
  Roll Eyes Yawn. The need to label arguments as statist is a crutch. People like finding something to hate, and they give it fake form through loaded terms like "statist". Such nonsense.

By your implied logic, everyone should be forced to carry crime insurance that pays out if they commit a criminal act. 
Nope. That's an argumentative fallacy.

From the victim's point of view, it doesn't matter a whole lot if I drive off the road and through his house during an accident, or if I intentionally burn it down during a criminal act of arson. 
Sure, possibly. From a financial point of view, the cost of the destroyed goods would be the same. But a civil case could involve punitive measures stemming from malice, negligence, etc. I'm not sure what you're trying to get across with this one?

Why do you favor mandatory car insurance*, but not "I'm a criminal" insurance?  Or do you?  In both cases there is "inflict incredibly costly damage" and "unable to make equitable relief".
Because operating a motor vehicle is a privilege, and not a right. By agreeing to use public roads, operators can be compelled to play by rules that are mutually beneficial. In my mind, the shared cost of insurance mitigates the potential for catastrophic loss for any single person/family by essentially guaranteeing that equitable relief can be made. If Freedom Joe is driving drunk and has no insurance because he's gallderned free and the MAN can't hold him down and force him to get insurance because that ain't freedom, and he wipes out a family home but has nothing in the bank, that family is out of luck. With a system of insurance, and a tort component, that family has the ability to seek relief.

Why can't the owner of the valuable thing purchase insurance to protect their assets instead?
So, you favor anti-criminal insurance? How does that work? That's shifting the burden out of pure idealism, which is both confusing and stupid.

* You don't come out and say it exactly, but I suspect that car insurance is what you are thinking of, being, by far, the most common form of insurance that people have to buy that protects other people instead of the purchaser.
I would guess it's a toss-up between liability insurance, car insurance, and health insurance. I don't know which wins by volume or total people, whatever metric is a good representation.
hero member
Activity: 583
Merit: 500
November 17, 2014, 01:38:06 AM
I bet the people belly aching about taxes are the people that barely pay any taxes.  

The people who barely pay any taxes pay tens, hundreds of millions of dollars for lawyers, lobbyists, and bribes, so they do not have to fear death or imprisonment, and therefore no reason to "bellyache".
Not true. The people who pay little taxes are those who vote for more entitlements and make a huge deal about even tiny amounts of potential entitlement reform (meaning the democrats)
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
November 17, 2014, 12:43:34 AM
You mean like making folks pay for insurance because they may kill someone or inflict incredibly costly damage, and be unable to make equitable relief?

Or maybe making folks pay for health insurance because the cost to society would be orders of magnitude greater if they utilized public facilities for major surgery while uninsured?

That image is an oversimplification. It's poorly reasoned, and flat out wrong.

Wow.  Speaking of poorly reasoned and flat out wrong, have you read your own post?  Hard to pack so much wrong into one sentence.  The "health insurance" sentence, if you are wondering which line of statist bullshit you are repeating without thinking.

Just for fun, I'll skip that one and look at the first sentence instead.  It is just as bad, really, but not currently a hot topic, so the talking points are rusty.  By your implied logic, everyone should be forced to carry crime insurance that pays out if they commit a criminal act.  From the victim's point of view, it doesn't matter a whole lot if I drive off the road and through his house during an accident, or if I intentionally burn it down during a criminal act of arson.  Why do you favor mandatory car insurance*, but not "I'm a criminal" insurance?  Or do you?  In both cases there is "inflict incredibly costly damage" and "unable to make equitable relief".

Why can't the owner of the valuable thing purchase insurance to protect their assets instead?

* You don't come out and say it exactly, but I suspect that car insurance is what you are thinking of, being, by far, the most common form of insurance that people have to buy that protects other people instead of the purchaser.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1031
RIP Mommy
November 17, 2014, 12:35:48 AM
I bet the people belly aching about taxes are the people that barely pay any taxes.  

The people who barely pay any taxes pay tens, hundreds of millions of dollars for lawyers, lobbyists, and bribes, so they do not have to fear death or imprisonment, and therefore no reason to "bellyache".
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
November 16, 2014, 11:48:17 PM
I bet the people belly aching about taxes are the people that barely pay any taxes. 
full member
Activity: 1834
Merit: 166
November 16, 2014, 11:30:14 PM

You mean like making folks pay for insurance because they may kill someone or inflict incredibly costly damage, and be unable to make equitable relief?

Or maybe making folks pay for health insurance because the cost to society would be orders of magnitude greater if they utilized public facilities for major surgery while uninsured?

That image is an oversimplification. It's poorly reasoned, and flat out wrong.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1031
RIP Mommy
November 16, 2014, 03:33:25 PM
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Small Red and Bad
November 16, 2014, 10:25:55 AM
The problem is not just the existence of a tax, but how many diferent ones we have. Governments are too greedy and some things like inheritance or gifts should not be taxed. Same as you shouldn't tax the same thing twice, which is a common thing nowadays.
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Call me Alice. just Alice.
November 16, 2014, 09:03:16 AM
why is it ok for a group of people calling themselves the government to force everyone to buy their services?
if enough armed people refused to pay and told the government to go fuck itself there is nothing they could do.

Murica….
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
November 16, 2014, 04:24:07 AM
To be frank, I wouldn't mind having some sort of freicoin type cryptocurrency minus the pre-mining and stuff perhaps, then it's all consensual and they aren't using violence to tax people the trick would be getting a government to agree to such a thing because they love being able to oppress their citizens especially if it means it will get them extra votes.

If people don't like it we can always just do what we do in the markets now and just switch to another coin pretty easily.
sr. member
Activity: 404
Merit: 250
https://nxtforum.org/
November 15, 2014, 08:18:10 PM
taxes are good in a honest government. but instead we have corruptions and conflicts of interest where they take most of the money and shove it down their own pockets instead of building a better country. so most of the tax money actually disappears.

we need a better way for funding the country. maybe a decentralized crowd fund based country?
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1011
November 15, 2014, 04:20:24 PM
so let them freeload.
if enough people agreed to pay and as a side effect people who didn't pay for it enjoy it too where is the problem.

Why should they (you) be entitled to use the services others have paid for?
And some don't pay, the rest have to pay more to make up for it.

This is, precisely, an argument against taxation.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
November 15, 2014, 03:37:19 PM
...Welcome to my ignore list.

>types idiotic crap
>ignores everyone who corrects him

Stay poor, angry and stupid.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1031
RIP Mommy
November 15, 2014, 03:30:08 PM
So why can government kill with impunity?

It can't.

Rejecting reality and substituting your own. Welcome to my ignore list.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
November 15, 2014, 03:18:36 PM
Don't provide services that can be "stolen", then.

No armed forces?
No border control?
No roads?

Quote
So why can government kill with impunity?

It can't.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1031
RIP Mommy
November 15, 2014, 02:46:09 PM
Don't provide services that can be "stolen", then. Business don't get to kill non-customers who use their free WiFi, nor do non-profit WiFi hotspot operators. So why can government kill with impunity?
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
November 15, 2014, 01:23:55 PM
so let them freeload.
if enough people agreed to pay and as a side effect people who didn't pay for it enjoy it too where is the problem.

Why should they (you) be entitled to use the services others have paid for?
And some don't pay, the rest have to pay more to make up for it.
That makes it more likely that some more will decide not to pay, so the remaining pay even more, and so on.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
November 15, 2014, 11:15:46 AM
In my opinion people agree to pay taxes for 2 main reasons:
- People are afraid to consequences ( penalties, jail, etc. )
- People think states provide useful services with tax money ( and they strongly believe it... )
if people believed the states provide useful services there would be no need to threaten them with violence if they refused to pay.
the obvious fact is that almost no one would buy the government's services at the current price.

No, they would freeload on the backs of those who did pay.
Many, if not most, government services cannot be isolated to single individuals, they benefit many people.


so let them freeload.
if enough people agreed to pay and as a side effect people who didn't pay for it enjoy it too where is the problem.
we all use google, very few people actually pay for it.
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