They keep changing their FAQ for Refunds: BF Labs inc. are in damage control.
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Jan 23 2013 FAQ
Can I get a refund on my pre-order?
Butterfly Labs, INC. is accepting pre-orders for ASIC based products, expected to begin shipping in late November or early December 2012. Your pre-order with payment confirms your place in line for delivery once we begin shipping. Payments made for pre-orders of ASIC based products now under development should be considered non-refundable until products begin shipping or 1 January 2013, whichever is earlier.
Feb 26, 2013
FAQ:Refund Request
Question:
I submitted a refund request to [email protected] but haven't heard back yet. When can I expect confirmation?
Answer:
3-4 workdays to start the refund process
7 workdays for wire
2-3 workdays for Paypal or bitcoin
April 30, 2013 - July 25, 2013
Can I get a refund on my pre-order?
All sales are final unless we fail to perform. That means if we do not ship any machine at all. If you would really like a refund anyway, just ask and we'll probably be able to take care of you. Nonetheless, we reserve the right to handle it on a case by case basis.
Refunds usually take 3-4 days to begin the process. If you paid with a bank wire, it will take an additional week or so for the funds to appear in your account. PayPal and Bitcoin refunds can take 2-3 days for the funds to appear in your account.
Bitcoin payments and refunds are processed through a third-party vendor. The amount refunded is based on the US Dollar equivalent at the time the transaction is initiated.
Presently Aug 7, 2013
Can I get a refund on my order?
A
While we reserve the right to handle refund requests on a case by case basis, pre-ordered products are non-refundable as is clearly stated at the time of purchase. The reason for this is that pre-order funds are used in the build process which makes it impractical to reverse. It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change. This has created an enormous customer service burden which is resolved by enforcing the all sales final policy.
Some customers have asked why we've given order cancelation refunds to others, but they can't get one. The answer is that we had opted to process order cancelation requests during our long product development phase as a courtesy to those who endured the stress of the unknown. However, once full production began, a notice was sent out advising that orders would be shipped as produced according to the order queue and that if anyone was unwilling to endure the wait, they had a final opportunity to cancel. Customers were required to positively confirm their desire to remain in the order queue and accept the order terms.
Pre-Order terms for new orders were updated on the website on April 1, 2013. The terms state, "I accept the terms of the sale and understand that all sales are final and there is a backlog of orders and production & delivery of my order may take 2 months or longer."
As a Wyoming Corporation, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise. The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed. In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity. Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected.
Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:
"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."
Topic: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL - page 24. (Read 45631 times)
I received a refund through Paypal after the 45 days, just by being persistent. However, they wouldn't refund the extra shipping charge which was a different transaction (remember at the end of April when BFL made everyone pay extra for express shipping?)
I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.
Long story short, don't lose money. If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.
I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.
Long story short, don't lose money. If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.
Good, Dhenson, I'm glad someone's been listening.
I received a refund through Paypal after the 45 days, just by being persistent. However, they wouldn't refund the extra shipping charge which was a different transaction (remember at the end of April when BFL made everyone pay extra for express shipping?)
I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.
Long story short, don't lose money. If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.
I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.
Long story short, don't lose money. If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.
Yeah mine was auto-closed, but I am continually trying to elevate it with PayPal through every channel they have available. Each time pointing out that they will find many claims against this company and that we were tricked into not claiming sooner.
So lets keep encouraging everyone to open claims and complaints and keep racking up those statistics - so that we can all win. Vires In Numbers!
I received a refund through Paypal after the 45 days, just by being persistent. However, they wouldn't refund the extra shipping charge which was a different transaction (remember at the end of April when BFL made everyone pay extra for express shipping?)
I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.
Long story short, don't lose money. If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.
I then filed a charge back with my credit card for the extra shipping transaction, as of today, it looks like that will be refunded as well.
Long story short, don't lose money. If you paid with Paypal via your Credit Card then you can get your money back even if at first they deny your request.
As i mentioned few days ago that i opened a dispute against BFL and i have escalated the claim, today BFL replied that they shipped my stuff without providing tracking number, they are playing the game to have people cancel the claim and i know they did not ship anything because on day 1 when i opened the claim they marked my invoices on the account dashboard as refunded and complete but i have not received any refund or any asic from there.
Keep in mind guys you can only open a claim once so don't let them trick you to close the claim.
Keep in mind guys you can only open a claim once so don't let them trick you to close the claim.
Would you be so kind as to verify whether the name Mr. Vlissides is actually used on the PayPal account or you simply made a spelling error, meaning to pen Vleisides.
Thanks, bud.
The Spanish Account manager of PayPal literally said "Vlissides", or that's how it sounded to me. Probably it's a pronunciation error of two spaniards and a non-Spanish last name in the conversation...
Hope it helps...
Ok, more news from PayPal guys in Europe.
I talked to an account manager this morning and he told me that the problem of the 45 days has to do with the insurance of every single transaction people do. After the 45 days period, he told me to directly call the Police. Paypal encourages users to call the Police after this 45 days period.
I asked him if it would work (heck, I'm in Madrid-Spain) and told me yes, it works between Europe and USA.
It seems that the BFL account in PayPal is under the name of Mr. Vlissides, and has something like a 'special' account manager. They will report my case directly to BFL account manager this afternoon.
But the guy here was clear: call the Police NOW.
So, if in 48 hours I don't get a valid response from BFL or PayPal, I will report it to the Grupo de Delitos Telemáticos: https://www.gdt.guardiacivil.es/webgdt/home_alerta.php
And I think that everybody should do the same.
I talked to an account manager this morning and he told me that the problem of the 45 days has to do with the insurance of every single transaction people do. After the 45 days period, he told me to directly call the Police. Paypal encourages users to call the Police after this 45 days period.
I asked him if it would work (heck, I'm in Madrid-Spain) and told me yes, it works between Europe and USA.
It seems that the BFL account in PayPal is under the name of Mr. Vlissides, and has something like a 'special' account manager. They will report my case directly to BFL account manager this afternoon.
But the guy here was clear: call the Police NOW.
So, if in 48 hours I don't get a valid response from BFL or PayPal, I will report it to the Grupo de Delitos Telemáticos: https://www.gdt.guardiacivil.es/webgdt/home_alerta.php
And I think that everybody should do the same.
Would you be so kind as to verify whether the name Mr. Vlissides is actually used on the PayPal account or you simply made a spelling error, meaning to pen Vleisides.
Thanks, bud.
Of course you can get refund if they haven't shipped to you yet!
They are in violation of FTC rules (if you are in the US) because they did not specifying a shipping date and have not shipped in a timely manner.
If BFL refuses to refund your purchase, contact the FTC and your state attorney general.
Then contact PayPal.
Finally, contact your credit card company (if you paid by credit card and I hope you did).
They have to give you your money back, at least until they apply for bankruptcy protection.
It might take a while, but you'll get your money back. The penalties for them not refunding your pre-orders are harsher than they probably imagine.
Good luck.
They are in violation of FTC rules (if you are in the US) because they did not specifying a shipping date and have not shipped in a timely manner.
If BFL refuses to refund your purchase, contact the FTC and your state attorney general.
Then contact PayPal.
Finally, contact your credit card company (if you paid by credit card and I hope you did).
They have to give you your money back, at least until they apply for bankruptcy protection.
It might take a while, but you'll get your money back. The penalties for them not refunding your pre-orders are harsher than they probably imagine.
Good luck.
I might do this and order some ASIC miners from xcrowd 
That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds). Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.
I agree.
I sent several e-mails (mainly to establish a paper trail), but I got farther with the phone calls. None of my PayPal calls were short, and I never accepted "no" as an answer. In my opinion, phone calls and stubbornness are the keys.
And patience! You need patience when speaking to anyone at Paypal...
I agree with that as well. Had I written rude e-mails or yelled/cursed on the phone, then I doubt I would've had a reason to start this thread. One can be stubborn without being an ass.
BFL needs PayPal. If that relationship is broken...
Yeah it's alright to have a little rant on a forum time to time, most people are thick skinned and will forgive here, but when you're answering phones for minimal wage or thereabouts and have dealt with 100's of people, most of which can't operate a computer and when your actual means of assistance is somewhat restricted by the powers that be at Paypal, you need to give these guys a break and be as thoughtful as possible if you wish to have some manners reciprocated. Most do want to help, it may take a few redials to catch that one guy or girl that's exceptional though, and with Bitcoin in the rise Paypal really needs to up their game in customer relations...
That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds). Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.
I agree.
I sent several e-mails (mainly to establish a paper trail), but I got farther with the phone calls. None of my PayPal calls were short, and I never accepted "no" as an answer. In my opinion, phone calls and stubbornness are the keys.
And patience! You need patience when speaking to anyone at Paypal...
I agree with that as well. Had I written rude e-mails or yelled/cursed on the phone, then I doubt I would've had a reason to start this thread. One can be stubborn without being an ass.
BFL needs PayPal. If that relationship is broken...
That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds). Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.
I agree.
I sent several e-mails (mainly to establish a paper trail), but I got farther with the phone calls. None of my PayPal calls were short, and I never accepted "no" as an answer. In my opinion, phone calls and stubbornness are the keys.
And patience! You need patience when speaking to anyone at Paypal, it's a lottery there whether you speak to anyone that wants to help you and more importantly can help you, most say it's not within their power and they will rarely ever let you speak with a manager, it's always submit a form on site from my experience...
Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.
Well done Mills out of my utter exhaustion of trying to labour this point across to all those who claim to be held hostage, you are the absolute first person to fully comprehend this concept.
If there's nothing more than being held hostage by a company that deny's you a refund they enjoy, it's spending hours editing forms online with Paypal that never get read, receiving bog standard cut and paste responses, or talking to Paypal customer service agents that have no power to 'escalate claims' as there is a form to fill in for that.
Personally chasing your tail sucks.
As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.
It appears as though he paid with his PP balance and not a CC, so maybe the point you accuse him of not understanding is not applicable here?
That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds). Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.
Sorry I only saw Millsdmb's comment. In which case you have to aim for the angle that Paypal partnered with a firm that doesn't satisfy their customer agreement...
That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds). Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.
I agree.
I sent several e-mails (mainly to establish a paper trail), but I got farther with the phone calls. None of my PayPal calls were short, and I never accepted "no" as an answer. In my opinion, phone calls and stubbornness are the keys.
I have carefully combed through this thread for exactly what are the TOS that BFL are violating. I didn't find it. I combed through Paypals website for TOS that BFL inc is violating like not delivering goods or providing a specific delivery/shipping date and still could not find it.
So before I look like a duffus when Paypal asks me exactly what TOS BFL inc is not complying with can someone please tell us in black in white right here? I'm about to contact their legal department.
So before I look like a duffus when Paypal asks me exactly what TOS BFL inc is not complying with can someone please tell us in black in white right here? I'm about to contact their legal department.
See below in red (copied and pasted from PayPal's site):
Quote
Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?
A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.
A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.
PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:
Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.
A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.
PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:
Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
Ok, more news from PayPal guys in Europe.
I talked to an account manager this morning and he told me that the problem of the 45 days has to do with the insurance of every single transaction people do. After the 45 days period, he told me to directly call the Police. Paypal encourages users to call the Police after this 45 days period.
I asked him if it would work (heck, I'm in Madrid-Spain) and told me yes, it works between Europe and USA.
It seems that the BFL account in PayPal is under the name of Mr. Vlissides, and has something like a 'special' account manager. They will report my case directly to BFL account manager this afternoon.
But the guy here was clear: call the Police NOW.
So, if in 48 hours I don't get a valid response from BFL or PayPal, I will report it to the Grupo de Delitos Telemáticos: https://www.gdt.guardiacivil.es/webgdt/home_alerta.php
And I think that everybody should do the same.
I talked to an account manager this morning and he told me that the problem of the 45 days has to do with the insurance of every single transaction people do. After the 45 days period, he told me to directly call the Police. Paypal encourages users to call the Police after this 45 days period.
I asked him if it would work (heck, I'm in Madrid-Spain) and told me yes, it works between Europe and USA.
It seems that the BFL account in PayPal is under the name of Mr. Vlissides, and has something like a 'special' account manager. They will report my case directly to BFL account manager this afternoon.
But the guy here was clear: call the Police NOW.
So, if in 48 hours I don't get a valid response from BFL or PayPal, I will report it to the Grupo de Delitos Telemáticos: https://www.gdt.guardiacivil.es/webgdt/home_alerta.php
And I think that everybody should do the same.
Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.
Well done Mills out of my utter exhaustion of trying to labour this point across to all those who claim to be held hostage, you are the absolute first person to fully comprehend this concept.
If there's nothing more than being held hostage by a company that deny's you a refund they enjoy, it's spending hours editing forms online with Paypal that never get read, receiving bog standard cut and paste responses, or talking to Paypal customer service agents that have no power to 'escalate claims' as there is a form to fill in for that.
Personally chasing your tail sucks.
As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.
It appears as though he paid with his PP balance and not a CC, so maybe the point you accuse him of not understanding is not applicable here?
That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds). Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results.
Quote
As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.
Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.
Well done Mills out of my utter exhaustion of trying to labour this point across to all those who claim to be held hostage, you are the absolute first person to fully comprehend this concept.
If there's nothing more than being held hostage by a company that deny's you a refund they enjoy, it's spending hours editing forms online with Paypal that never get read, receiving bog standard cut and paste responses, or talking to Paypal customer service agents that have no power to 'escalate claims' as there is a form to fill in for that.
Personally chasing your tail sucks.
I recently received a full refund from BFL for an order I placed several months ago.
I know, I know, BFL claims that "all sales are final". Well, there's "final", and then there's "final"...
It took a month, but here's what worked for me:
- I sent an email to [email protected] in which I politely requested a refund.
- About a week later, I received a reply from BFL denying my request.
- I filed a dispute with PayPal. In this dispute I noted that BFL failed to deliver, denied my refund request, and violated PayPal's Terms of Service for pre-order sales.
- PayPal closed my dispute the same day, stating that I was outside the 45-day window.
- I called PayPal's customer service and complained about my dispute being closed, and explained to PayPal exactly how BFL is violating the ToS.
- I sent an email to [email protected] in which I listed my transaction and dispute number, and explained how BFL is violating the ToS.
- A few days later, a PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor called me on the phone. He had already spoken to BFL and assured me that BFL would be contacting me. I told him that I just wanted a refund, and explained to him how BFL is violating the ToS.
- I waited a week to give BFL plenty of time to contact me. They didn't.
- I emailed the PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor and told him that BFL had not contacted me. He seemed shocked. I wasn't. He told me that PayPal could take action against BFL if necessary.
- The PayPal Customer Solutions Supervisor escalated my dispute to the next level (whatever that is). He told me that someone else would call.
- The next day I received a call from a guy named Bruce at BFL. He told me that since I had complained to PayPal, BFL was placing my order "under review" and taking it out of the queue. From his tone, I got the impression that Bruce thought this would bother me. I told him that I didn't need a review, I just wanted my money back. He wouldn't give me a firm answer and just kept repeating that they were placing my order "under review" and taking it out of the queue. I even asked if this review would take a day, week, month, or year. No answer, just the same "under review" statement.
- Within 5 minutes of BFL's call, an Account Representative from PayPal called. I told her about the strange conversation with Bruce. She said that she would contact BFL again.
- My payment to BFL was refunded to my PayPal account the next business day.
IMHO, this is the bottom line:
BFL needs PayPal. If you want your money back, complain to PayPal and don't give up.
just a feedback on my paypal claim, it is the answer:
Quote
When you pay with PayPal, you have buyer protection till 45 days after the tranaction been made. I see that you tried to open a claim. Because of the above reason this case got automaticly closed directly.
I'm very sorry to inform you that we can't do anything about this matter. Even when the seller informs you that the delivery time can take up till 2 months, you should have opened a claim before the 45 days.
As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.
The only thing you could you, is go to the police. The police can contact us and we can inform him about the account information.
Please let us know if you require any further assistance.
I'm very sorry to inform you that we can't do anything about this matter. Even when the seller informs you that the delivery time can take up till 2 months, you should have opened a claim before the 45 days.
As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank.
The only thing you could you, is go to the police. The police can contact us and we can inform him about the account information.
Please let us know if you require any further assistance.
Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.
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