Topic: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL - page 27. (Read 45622 times)

Sure there would have been, for Josh adamantly stated that no pre-order moneys were ever used in the development of their ASIC line, going as far as stating that if every single person requested a refund, it'll be honored--Honest Abe.

The only reason BFL ended the refund period is that they went into Full Production mode on July 4, 2013, assembling and shipping 300+ units daily since. If that sentence is a lie, than Josh/BFL will be here to state otherwise, otherwise consider it gospel.

Now, Monumental Assholes, open your hymnals to page 42 and sing alone with me "Blockchain of Ages".

Right, with bitcoin there is room for a 3rd party payments provider that can provide some protection for chargebacks if things go wrong.

The problem, of course is that if someone does a chargback with real money, the CC company can just reach into their bank account and take the money out.  There's no way to do that with bitcoin.  If things go really wrong you can sue and ultimately get your money back that way, too.

Anyway, with KnC there is a refund process, everyone who has posted about requesting a refund has gotten one with no issues coming, either with fiat or BTC.

Unlike BFL, KnC's refund policy is to refund anyone their money until their unit ships.  Not until they "start shipping"  So you can cancel your order and get your money back up until the day that your product ships, even if you just want to cancel because the difficulty looks too high, or whatever.

Ultimately, in theory KnC might renig on their agreement, but that seems unlikely - as long as their chip designs work they can just mine with their own units and use that to pay for their BTC refunds.

Comparing BTC to Paypal is apples to oranges. They are both fruit, but the similarity ends there.
BTC is only a payments ledger. In Bitcoin there is no insurance, or charge-backs, or customer service, or direct link to merchant and consumer banking, as there is in Paypal. It is like comparing IP to HTTPS.

My point was that a feature could be added on top of the Bitcoin platform (escrow) that would have made BTC a better option than Paypal for purchasing BFL. The reason I make this point is so that in the future, less people get BFL'd when buying things with Bitcoin.

But the original poster was correct in saying using Paypal was a better idea than using just Bitcoin to buy BFL.

No. BFL wouldn't be able to fund NRE costs associated with development if funds were held. Anyway Paypal is an escrow of sorts. PayPal are only refunding as it's a waste of cash spent on employees to focus time on individual transactions that amount to a small percentage fee to them. In the grand scheme they would rather keep buyers happy and have repeat business. Something a lot of these mining companies don't appear to have considered themselves...

If BFL did escrow, there wouldnt be BFL ASIC unit

haha, statements based on IF.)) please stop, he is right, just admit it.

Good job. I wish every customer was as precise and calm in their correspondence with customer support / or any company in direct contact with customers.

I'm wondering if Paypal is starting to see a pattern and getting ready to sever ties with BFL. Even though Paypal gets a lot of flak by the Bitcoin community, it's nice to see them follow through on a case like this.

If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal.

...Orrrr you misunderstand what I'm referring to Xian, think about it;

- We've had weeks if not months of people demanding a refund from Butterfly Labs.

- They've been told no, that's it. That's all, 'told' no, and accepted it as gospel. They haven't until now made any attempt to call their card issuer. No one. No one out of the thousands that have paid by card and are complaining they can't get a refund because BFL 'told them no'.

The absolute first thing I did once KnC started looking serious was insist they accept card payment as I knew part of the reason crazy credit card APR exists is to cover me against fraud. It's a compelling sales offer they entice you with to apply for the damn things. "Apply now, be protected abroad, you're insured against fraud, attractive rates", yadda, yadda...

I then rang my issuing bank and explained exactly what the purchase was for and that it was a pre-order with anticipated delivery in the future. They said as long as I take delivery with six years I'm covered. I'm protected in the UK by the consumer credit act, section 75, google it. Some banks except themselves because they say third party payment processes such as Paypal and Amazon negate this. So once again, I rang and checked as Paypal were exceptionally useless on the phone. My ccard issuing bank, Barclays says my card is covered by Paypal, the first 45 days and they they will uphold any dispute themselves after that period. That I can request a refund from them. For sure Amex does this as well.

Because of this I can kick back, relax, enjoy the show and be positive towards KnC without worrying about fraud.

It's totally upto you whether you want to take me seriously or not Xian, I detailed this in the KnC thread at the time I found this out, there's pages as KS was trying is hardest to tell me this wasn't the case until I rang and checked for myself.

That's all I'm asking anyone to do, check for themselves. Out of the thousands that paid for their units by credit card, I cannot believe no one has rang their card issuer and just accepte this treatment of being held hostage. It's nuts!!

I cannot believe people have been taking BFL's no refund policy at face value. If you paid by a credit card (not debit) call your issuing bank and check. You'll more than likely have a welcome surprise, although someone said this may not be the case in Germany.

Sincerely I'm trying to be helpful. If I placed you on a chair, in a room, left the door open, but 'told you' it was closed and left you there to starve. Would you just stay sat?! You pay big ccard fees for this...

Agreed. I think im going to go drop my entire "Bill me Later" available credit on BFL units via Paypal =D

well, this is win.

I appreciate your opinion, but...

At this time I have no further interest in any BFL product. I have no faith in their ability to deliver, and I have no faith in their desire to provide ongoing customer service (i.e. warranty). I was tired of their delay tactics, and sick of watching the way their officers conduct themselves in public. BFL showed me one thing: They are not the type of company that I want to do business with.

I just wanted my money back, plain and simple.

In the end, I got it.

unless they say no, then you need in writing for paypal dispute.

You'll have better luck with a phone call.  It worked for me.

To my knowledge, KNC has not missed a date or performance target yet. Yes, their plan is very audacious and we have very little visibility into their development process (as opposed to an open source project for instance). I am willing to give KNC the benefit of the doubt until they actually fail to deliver on a promise. I am tempted to order KNC gear, however I have not yet because they are not far enough along to satisfy my strict criteria for purchase from a mining equipment vendor.

In short, I think the jury is still out on KNC.

even more ironic that I just purchased a block erupter in a group buy that only takes paypal. And there, one or two people cried "SCAM!"

As I said in that thread, tho...escrow is what Paypal does best. As a long time seller and buyer, ive gotten both refunds and chargebacks. Geting more involved in bitcoin, it becomes increasingly evident that this is an area that remains in need of some improvement.

Great news; well done!

 Between this comment, and your unwavering support for KNC, I'm beginning to have a hard time taking anything you say here seriously.

You should have just said that if they shipped your units right away, you will give up inquiring about the refund

Not to tell you what to do, but I also called PayPal's Customer Service and complained about the dispute being closed.  I think the fact that I hit them from every angle helped my case.

Good luck!