YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL - page 26.

PuertoLibre

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Quote from: vcsmith on August 03, 2013, 12:01:18 AM

Quote from: investr on August 02, 2013, 11:31:24 PM

Please share your emails + language in a public gist.

This was my e-mail to [email protected] :

Quote

Hi,

I used PayPal to place a pre-order with Butterfly Labs on xx-xx-xx for $xxx.xx.

This order has still not been filled.

I politely requested a refund on xx-xx-xx and was declined on xx-xx-xx.

Today I filed Dispute #PP-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx. This dispute was closed for being outside the 45-day window.

The seller has violated your terms of service which clearly state that the seller "Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase".

The seller is continuing to accept pre-orders for a product that they can not ship within any reasonable amount of time. In fact, they do not even pretend to be honoring your 20-day limit.

I have been a PayPal customer for x years. While I realize that this payment is beyond the 45-day limit, I believe PayPal should honor my request for a refund as the seller is still using PayPal to receive pre-order payments in a manner that clearly violates your terms of service.

Many people may be harmed financially by this seller if PayPal doesn't step in.

Regards,

Me

Wow, that is one very well crafted email. Re-posted in case anyone needs a template.

PuertoLibre

legendary

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Quote from: vcsmith on August 02, 2013, 04:19:39 PM

FWIW, there was one thing in this ordeal that really rubbed me the wrong way...

When Bruce from BFL called, he made the "under review" status sound like a punishment for my complaining to PayPal. He seemed surprised that I didn't care about being taken out of the queue. I think that was the only card they had.

Again, don't take this lying down. If you want your money back, take it.

PuertoLibre

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Activity: 1890

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Quote from: GoodStuff on August 02, 2013, 03:52:13 PM

This thread should be stickied.

Yes, right next to the one for bASIC.

I sense, this is going down that road in a hurry.

Everyone, everyone, everything is alright. DON'T PANIC.

You know thats what shills are thinking when they post! haha

PuertoLibre

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Quote from: tom99 on August 02, 2013, 02:52:11 PM

Did you tell Paypal that alot of Paypal buyers want refund from BFL?

ps: shipping thing get nowhere and its getting worse day by day.

It's a test to see if hapless customers ever complain.

It appears that you can keep someone waiting for 14 months with very little in the way of expectations in them getting their money or their product. It is an amazing social experiment.

Bitcoinorama

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Quote from: vcsmith on August 04, 2013, 11:46:48 AM

I think I got the same (or a similar response), but the Customer Solutions Supervisor referenced my e-mail to fraud when he called me. The next step would be to call PayPal's Customer Service and bend their ear. Personally I think the phone calls got me farther than the e-mails did.

Point out this (from their site):

Quote

Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.

A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:

   Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
   Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
   Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation).

Most importantly, don't take "no" for an answer. This is your money.

Paypal are generally useless, they will take what ever is the easiest way out for them, and outside of 45 days it is not there problem.

Read back at what I wrote in this thread, otherwise it is pointless me writing it.

If you paid by ccard, contact your issuing bank, they have way more weight than a payment processor especially if they are bound by consumer protection laws. Again, and for the last time, it's what you pay their usurious interest fees for!

vcsmith

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Activity: 43

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I think I got the same (or a similar response), but the Customer Solutions Supervisor referenced my e-mail to fraud when he called me. The next step would be to call PayPal's Customer Service and bend their ear. Personally I think the phone calls got me farther than the e-mails did.

Point out this (from their site):

Quote

Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.

A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:

   Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
   Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
   Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation).

Most importantly, don't take "no" for an answer. This is your money.

avabit

newbie

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Try just contacting them through the webform, if enough people complain, paypal will take notice

mueslo

member

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Quote from: vcsmith on August 03, 2013, 12:01:18 AM

This was my e-mail to [email protected] :

Quote

...

Huh. When I write to [email protected], I get the following automatic response:

Quote

************************************************************************
Please do not reply to this e-mail. Mail sent to this address will not
be answered.

************************************************************************

PayPal appreciates you bringing any suspicious activity to our
attention.

Unfortunately, we are unable to properly respond to any emails that are
sent to this address. Please follow the instructions below in order to
report any suspicious activity involving PayPal or its customers.

1. Go to https://www.paypal.com

2. Click the 'Security Center' link at the bottom of the page

3. Click 'Report a Problem'

4. Select the proper Topic and Subtopic related to your issue

5. Complete appropriate webform and click 'Submit'

If you have received a suspicious email, we are requesting that you
forward a copy of the email to us at [email protected].

Rest assured, PayPal will promptly investigate the activity you have
reported. We thank you for your concern and assistance in making PayPal
the most trusted online Payment service on the internet.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

PayPal and its representatives will NEVER ask you to reveal your
password. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to this policy. If anyone claiming to
work for PayPal asks for your password under any circumstances, by email
or by phone, please refuse and immediately contact us via webform at https://www.paypal.com/wf/f=sa_pass.

Sincerely,

PayPal, Inc.

This email is sent to you by the contracting entity to your User
Agreement, either PayPal Inc or PayPal (Europe) Limited. PayPal(Europe)
Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority
in the UK as an electronic money institution.

**********************************************

I had already tried it via that form, and my refund request was denied by PayPal due to being over the 45 day limit.

bitcoindaddy

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Quote from: Lohoris on August 04, 2013, 04:45:11 AM

I wonder if it would be considered legal (however unethical) to get the miner, use it for mining 7 days, then asking a refund (continuing to mine until it arrives), then send it back.
I'm not suggesting to do such a thing, just wondering.

Except the BFL would have had your money for over a year while you wait for the product. In reality, BFL would be the one that comes out ahead.

Lohoris

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Bitgoblin

Quote from: codesuela on August 04, 2013, 09:46:04 AM

I can't help but think that the people who ordered there are somewhat deserving of getting scammed, however I've personally been blinded by greed in the past and blaming the victim (BFL customers) is like blaming an old lady for falling for a 419. Oh wait wasn't that the reason why the BFL head fraudster (josh or something?) was indicted for (peddling a lotto service to old ladies and never ever performing the paid for service)?
Sounds familiar?
I can only say it again: BFL is a scam and even if it is not (which I think is very unlikely) it's a company undeserving of your money and the only reason they are still around is because in Bitcoinland the tolerance for bullshit is unhealthily high.

Old ladies are... old.
Most people here have no such excuse.
Every one of them is to blame for the future scams the scammers will do, since they de facto encouraged him, and financed him, willingly.

codesuela

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bump, did not order anything there (neither at avalon or any other mining company) but BFL needs to go away and the executive staff needs to go to prison because it is clear cut scam and fraud.
I can't help but think that the people who ordered there are somewhat deserving of getting scammed, however I've personally been blinded by greed in the past and blaming the victim (BFL customers) is like blaming an old lady for falling for a 419. Oh wait wasn't that the reason why the BFL head fraudster (josh or something?) was indicted for (peddling a lotto service to old ladies and never ever performing the paid for service)?
Sounds familiar?
I can only say it again: BFL is a scam and even if it is not (which I think is very unlikely) it's a company undeserving of your money and the only reason they are still around is because in Bitcoinland the tolerance for bullshit is unhealthily high.

Bitcoinorama

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Quote from: SirWizz on August 04, 2013, 09:09:34 AM

Quote from: Bitcoinorama on August 03, 2013, 04:12:24 PM

I cannot believe people have been taking BFL's no refund policy at face value. If you paid by a credit card (not debit) call your issuing bank and check. You'll more than likely have a welcome surprise, although someone said this may not be the case in Germany.

Sincerely I'm trying to be helpful. If I placed you on a chair, in a room, left the door open, but 'told you' it was closed and left you there to starve. Would you just stay sat?! You pay big ccard fees for this...

I once read that someone shut down one of the highways entering a US state for a few hours simply by placing a big road sign that read "xxxxxxxx is closed" (I can't remember the name of the state). You'll have to get used to the idea (eventually) that a majority of people will happily take most things at face value. Unfortunately I don't think that critical thinking is on the curriculum much these days...

Haha, that's amusing unless emergency services or someone in dire need was impaired, alas I doubt most would query road signs on a highway, you kinda are meant to take them at face value, but if someone tried to rob a bank with a banana, would you still hand over the cash?

SirWizz

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Quote from: Bitcoinorama on August 03, 2013, 04:12:24 PM

I cannot believe people have been taking BFL's no refund policy at face value. If you paid by a credit card (not debit) call your issuing bank and check. You'll more than likely have a welcome surprise, although someone said this may not be the case in Germany.

Sincerely I'm trying to be helpful. If I placed you on a chair, in a room, left the door open, but 'told you' it was closed and left you there to starve. Would you just stay sat?! You pay big ccard fees for this...

I once read that someone shut down one of the highways entering a US state for a few hours simply by placing a big road sign that read "xxxxxxxx is closed" (I can't remember the name of the state). You'll have to get used to the idea (eventually) that a majority of people will happily take most things at face value. Unfortunately I don't think that critical thinking is on the curriculum much these days...

Bitcoinorama

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Activity: 532

Merit: 500

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Lohoris on August 04, 2013, 04:45:11 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

For EU customer who ordered something to BFl, read this: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

Returning unwanted goods
7 days to cancel purchase for non-faulty goods
In the EU, you have the right to cancel your online purchase within seven working days.

This seven-day “cooling off” period begins on the day when you receive your purchase.

You can choose to cancel your order for any reason within this timeframe – even if you simply changed your mind.

The seller must give you a refund within 30 days. This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.

This applies whenever you buy goods outside a shop (for example by phone, fax, or mail order, as well as on the internet).

Although you have a right of refund, you will have to pay the postage costs of shipping goods bought online back to the seller.

I wonder if it would be considered legal (however unethical) to get the miner, use it for mining 7 days, then asking a refund (continuing to mine until it arrives), then send it back.
I'm not suggesting to do such a thing, just wondering.

You can choose to cancel your order for any reason within this timeframe – even if you simply changed your mind. So answer is yes.
To give you an example, you want to buy an android phone to replace you iphone but after on day you don't like android, you can return the device.

My goal isn't to use the device, I want to be refund. If BFL wants to play the game to send me the unit and after I use the law to have my refund it is up to their.

We will see.

Unless you didn't pay by credit card, this would be an unnecessary expense to ship back and fourth on your part, let alone needlessly detrimental to the environment. Everyone who has paid should speak to their card's issuing bank, now. They have a lot more weight than Paypal in this matter. Paypal only refund as they don't want to waste employee time on a long drawn out dispute as it cost's them more time than the % commission gained from the sale. If they then have to cover the full amount, because Butterfly Labs won't honour a forced refund, they limit BFL. BFL don't want limiting, or to lose the Paypal brand as it's their main form of revenue and few other payment processors would touch pre-ordered tech, esp if they have a history of delays and non delivery. Paypal don't have to honour any refund outside of their 45 days, although they value your repeat business, where as ccard issuing banks may well have to dependant on where you are, your consumer protection laws, and/or what they promise you your exhorbitant credit card fees offer you interms of amount and length of protection.

Garr255

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What's a GPU?

Quote from: 01BTC10 on August 02, 2013, 02:04:02 PM

Alternatively you can berate Josh and get a forced refund.

+1

Lohoris

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Activity: 630

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Bitgoblin

Quote from: ?? on ??

For EU customer who ordered something to BFl, read this: http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm

Returning unwanted goods
7 days to cancel purchase for non-faulty goods
In the EU, you have the right to cancel your online purchase within seven working days.

This seven-day “cooling off” period begins on the day when you receive your purchase.

You can choose to cancel your order for any reason within this timeframe – even if you simply changed your mind.

The seller must give you a refund within 30 days. This refund must include any shipping charges you paid when you made your purchase.

This applies whenever you buy goods outside a shop (for example by phone, fax, or mail order, as well as on the internet).

Although you have a right of refund, you will have to pay the postage costs of shipping goods bought online back to the seller.

I wonder if it would be considered legal (however unethical) to get the miner, use it for mining 7 days, then asking a refund (continuing to mine until it arrives), then send it back.
I'm not suggesting to do such a thing, just wondering.

vcsmith

newbie

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Just for the heck of it, I did a search for this thread's URL: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/yes-you-can-get-a-refund-from-bfl-266945

Apparently a link has been posted twice on BFL's forums, then deleted soon after. I wonder why?

Frizz23

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