So looking back at all the Bitmain releases in the past. It seems if you have free or cheap electricity the only miner that would of got ROI and made you some profit is the Antminer S1.
The S2 / S3 would of been getting barely ROI right at the moment.
The S4 / S5 not even close.
This is assuming one pays retail.
Topic: ANTMINER S5: 1155GH(+OverClock Potential), In Stock $0.319/GH & 0.51W/GH - page 142. (Read 451039 times)
March 18, 2015, 10:45:06 AM
March 18, 2015, 09:41:21 AM
I should have seen that price drop coming and warned everyone. Whenever we take in large orders or invoices paid in coin, the exchange rate always plummets immediately after. Every single time. It's a curse. So yesterday we took in something like 15BTC on one invoice, of course it drops overnight.
March 18, 2015, 09:28:42 AM
Coins dropped to 274 overnight. So do we get a further price drop ? Not yet still 416 shipped to NJ,USA
Only thing that is good new is Diff dropping about-2%
Only thing that is good new is Diff dropping about-2%
March 18, 2015, 06:53:54 AM
And your point is?
Perhaps mining is hopeless? Well may be, but if the mining gear still holds possibility for the small scale miner, it's not unlikely the small scale miner might give it a shot?
Perhaps mining is hopeless? Well may be, but if the mining gear still holds possibility for the small scale miner, it's not unlikely the small scale miner might give it a shot?
In the current marketplace mining is profitable.
March 18, 2015, 06:46:28 AM
I'm thinking a mere three month ROI is wishful thinking! However, your point is?
Perhaps mining is hopeless? Well, may be, but if the mining gear still holds possibility for the small scale miner, it's not unlikely the small scale miner might give it a shot? Is your intent to totally discredit the possibilities of such miners? If so, then you've totally discredited the distributed nature of the BTC Blockchain (ie. noncentralized). Just what is it that BTC pretends towards? There's a big difference between some vague ideality and true reality. What is the true advantage of BTC?
Perhaps mining is hopeless? Well, may be, but if the mining gear still holds possibility for the small scale miner, it's not unlikely the small scale miner might give it a shot? Is your intent to totally discredit the possibilities of such miners? If so, then you've totally discredited the distributed nature of the BTC Blockchain (ie. noncentralized). Just what is it that BTC pretends towards? There's a big difference between some vague ideality and true reality. What is the true advantage of BTC?
March 18, 2015, 06:37:32 AM
Hey people, I'm not at all meaning to give any of you a hard time, but I continue to be very unhappy with my treatment by Bitmain. If Bitmain is your religion, then clearly, were not going to get along. I suggest you just let it be! Let Bitmain take care of what ever they choose to take care of (or not as the case may be.)
If whom you think to be a reliable business source (pay money and get appropriate return) turns out not to be, in my opinion, it's appropriate to view them in a more critical way! That's all that I'm doing! Bitmain clearly isn't an operation to trust with your BTC value, they are perfectly willing to revise value without notice or refunded BTC! How much your purchase BTC is worth against their miners is clearly unstable (even day to day)! Count your blessings! Perhaps this is the problem presented by lack of immediate competition? I paid $419 per S5 3/11, please adjust that to the current $369 3/12. Thanks very much! Am I truly wrong? Let's put it this way, I'll buy again when it comes to the S7, my unmet intent for coupons! Treat me as a valued customer, not an enemy! Guess what, I'll respond accordingly!
If whom you think to be a reliable business source (pay money and get appropriate return) turns out not to be, in my opinion, it's appropriate to view them in a more critical way! That's all that I'm doing! Bitmain clearly isn't an operation to trust with your BTC value, they are perfectly willing to revise value without notice or refunded BTC! How much your purchase BTC is worth against their miners is clearly unstable (even day to day)! Count your blessings! Perhaps this is the problem presented by lack of immediate competition? I paid $419 per S5 3/11, please adjust that to the current $369 3/12. Thanks very much! Am I truly wrong? Let's put it this way, I'll buy again when it comes to the S7, my unmet intent for coupons! Treat me as a valued customer, not an enemy! Guess what, I'll respond accordingly!
Miners are pretty much priced with a 3 month ROI, excluding electricity and shipping. BTC price goes down, miners price goes down. BTC price rises then they raise the price of the miners. Been this way for quite a while now.
March 18, 2015, 04:30:15 AM
Hey people, I'm not at all meaning to give any of you a hard time, but I continue to be very unhappy with my treatment by Bitmain. If Bitmain is your religion, then clearly, were not going to get along. I suggest you just let it be! Let Bitmain take care of what ever they choose to take care of (or not as the case may be.)
If whom you think to be a reliable business source (pay money and get appropriate return) turns out not to be, in my opinion, it's appropriate to view them in a more critical way! That's all that I'm doing! Bitmain clearly isn't an operation to trust with your BTC value, they are perfectly willing to revise value without notice or refunded BTC! How much your purchase BTC is worth against their miners is clearly unstable (even day to day)! Count your blessings! Perhaps this is the problem presented by lack of immediate competition? I paid $419 per S5 3/11, please adjust that to the current $369 3/12. Thanks very much! Am I truly wrong? Let's put it this way, I'll buy again when it comes to the S7, my unmet intent for coupons! Treat me as a customer, not an enemy (appreciate my interest in what you have to offer!) Guess what, I'll respond accordingly!
If whom you think to be a reliable business source (pay money and get appropriate return) turns out not to be, in my opinion, it's appropriate to view them in a more critical way! That's all that I'm doing! Bitmain clearly isn't an operation to trust with your BTC value, they are perfectly willing to revise value without notice or refunded BTC! How much your purchase BTC is worth against their miners is clearly unstable (even day to day)! Count your blessings! Perhaps this is the problem presented by lack of immediate competition? I paid $419 per S5 3/11, please adjust that to the current $369 3/12. Thanks very much! Am I truly wrong? Let's put it this way, I'll buy again when it comes to the S7, my unmet intent for coupons! Treat me as a customer, not an enemy (appreciate my interest in what you have to offer!) Guess what, I'll respond accordingly!
March 18, 2015, 03:55:53 AM
There's a time and place for everything. I feel as a representative of a business you should not be using them. I own a small online store.
I own a small business too. I infrequently use emoticons in my business emails. I hate the written word because it's difficult to tell the intent and emotion of the writer. I don't feel that emoticons should be a taboo for business emails. They should be used sparingly. I must have the right balance, having just celebrated 15 years in business. I never had a client complain, yet.But when your entire reply to a valid question a paying customer has about the machines he purchased is a series of emoticons, there's room to complain. It's basically dismissing the question offhand (and in a manner which could be seen as condescending), which is rude.
Bitmain reps here, do need help in the appropriate use of emoticons.
Bitmain reps here, do need help in the appropriate use of emoticons.
Exactly the attitude that makes BTC appear supremely suspect as a medium of commerce. The recipient clearly has no responsibility to provide equitable value!
Guess I was wrong Dogie, you are purely a lackey of Bitmain!
You barked up the tree with Dogie on this one. I'm grateful for his, and everyone's good help here. I'll also speak up with him or others when they are wrong. March 18, 2015, 02:38:14 AM
There's a time and place for everything. I feel as a representative of a business you should not be using them. I own a small online store.
I own a small business too. I infrequently use emoticons in my business emails. I hate the written word because it's difficult to tell the intent and emotion of the writer. I don't feel that emoticons should be a taboo for business emails. They should be used sparingly. I must have the right balance, having just celebrated 15 years in business. I never had a client complain, yet.Having said that, I think sidehack already said it perfectly:
But when your entire reply to a valid question a paying customer has about the machines he purchased is a series of emoticons, there's room to complain. It's basically dismissing the question offhand (and in a manner which could be seen as condescending), which is rude.
Bitmain reps here, do need help in the appropriate use of emoticons. Exactly the attitude that makes BTC appear supremely suspect as a medium of commerce. The recipient clearly has no responsibility to provide equitable value!
Whether the exchange is in Bitcoin or something else, whether transacted online or on mainstreet, it's all the same - you can get scammed or have a bad experience. more than once I've recieved a less than proper amount of cash back at a mainstreet (KFC) business. It's a matter of knowing the rules of the transaction - the means of value exchange (BTC, USD, IQD, Euro, etc) has nothing to do with the transaction. Have a problem with rules? Then that's a different discussion.Guess I was wrong Dogie, you are purely a lackey of Bitmain!
You barked up the tree with Dogie on this one. I'm grateful for his, and everyone's good help here. I'll also speak up with him or others when they are wrong. March 18, 2015, 12:23:25 AM
Using emoticons in a reply is slightly unprofessional, but this forum isn't exactly a formal place. But when your entire reply to a valid question a paying customer has about the machines he purchased is a series of emoticons, there's room to complain. It's basically dismissing the question offhand (and in a manner which could be seen as condescending), which is rude.
March 18, 2015, 12:22:00 AM
I hope you get a resolution.
Sucks to be a small miner trying to figure out a way to make a buck.
It certainly doesn't help matters when prices of miners fluctuate like the BTC price.
My own S2s keep going... and the SP30's lasted 1 month before I sold them making a tidy little profit. It is cut throat out there trust no one.
Thanks and best wishes man, not to mention good luck yourself! Sucks to be a small miner trying to figure out a way to make a buck.
It certainly doesn't help matters when prices of miners fluctuate like the BTC price.
My own S2s keep going... and the SP30's lasted 1 month before I sold them making a tidy little profit. It is cut throat out there trust no one.
March 18, 2015, 12:17:04 AM
Colorado
That explains a lot.
*** Emoticon will continue to be used under this account. This is a community forum and the MOD placed the emoticon to be used. It is not simply the business communication platform.
Gun stores provide Guns and ammo. Does that mean that I should start shooting up the place because they made the guns and ammo available to be used? There's a time and place for everything. I feel as a representative of a business you should not be using them. I own a small online store. I have 8 people working for me. Two of them work the different social media outlets. I would fire them if they used emoticons. When they respond to customers to address a problem or explain a product or anything else they represent my company. On their own facebook or twitter accounts I don't care what they choose to post. Now, if my business was to make and sell emoticons, then I would emoticon every post or update I made, but I don't, so I don't. I would like for my customers if they do run into a problem with my product to believe that they could contact me and get the problem resolved, instead of asking for help and getting
as a response.But you know it's just my opinion. I have no confidence in clowns, and that is what I feel your portraying Bitmain Tech as. Until I see a change I will not place any orders with Bitmain, because if for any reason I do have an issue with their product I don't want
as a response to me losing money.I have said my peace and will not make any further comments on this issue. Yes, it is an issue whether you believe it to be or not. I know some people are placing orders with Bitmain because they are the only one taking orders right now. I hope no has any problems with the equipment they have ordered. good luck to everyone in their mining adventures.
You stooped so low you are complaining about emoticons . Man, does it really matter if someone used emoticons or not. Please let it go dude.
March 17, 2015, 11:49:36 PM
Not for small miners.
Even with low electricity the shipping and cost of the units including all the peripheral add-ons you need really doesn't make any sense. This has been the case since the price drop of BTC.
Yes, sad to say, yes!Even with low electricity the shipping and cost of the units including all the peripheral add-ons you need really doesn't make any sense. This has been the case since the price drop of BTC.
I'm paying hand over fist for electricity and trying to be as careful as I can manage about buying new (spelt more efficient) miners. It's entirely clear to me I'm not making money, but it surely doesn't help when manufacturers work the deck against me. All I'm asking is that Bitmain refund me their overcharge (not suggesting it was intentional). That 1/3 BTC represents days of KWH expenditure at 14.5cts each. I figure I can only possibly continue to mine BTC until the next halving, after that it'll be just impossible. As you mentioned, here and there I'm also mining Alt, but again as you mentioned, it's pure gamble/risk.
I hope you get a resolution.
Sucks to be a small miner trying to figure out a way to make a buck.
It certainly doesn't help matters when prices of miners fluctuate like the BTC price.
My own S2s keep going... and the SP30's lasted 1 month before I sold them making a tidy little profit. It is cut throat out there trust no one.
March 17, 2015, 11:46:01 PM
Not for small miners.
Even with low electricity the shipping and cost of the units including all the peripheral add-ons you need really doesn't make any sense. This has been the case since the price drop of BTC.
Yes, sad to say, yes!Even with low electricity the shipping and cost of the units including all the peripheral add-ons you need really doesn't make any sense. This has been the case since the price drop of BTC.
I'm paying hand over fist for electricity and trying to be as careful as I can manage about buying new (spelt more efficient) miners. It's entirely clear to me I'm not making money, but it surely doesn't help when manufacturers work the deck against me. All I'm asking is that Bitmain refund me their overcharge (not suggesting it was intentional). That 1/3 BTC represents days of KWH expenditure at 14.5cts each. I figure I can only possibly continue to mine BTC until the next halving, after that it'll be just impossible. As you mentioned, here and there I'm also mining Alt, but again as you mentioned, it's pure gamble/risk, though isn't it all!
March 17, 2015, 11:26:21 PM
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but...
That's not entirely true. There are some countries where at this current price mining is still VERY profitable. Mainly, countries where the main power source is of the renewable kind and prices of energy are VERY low compared to other sources (i.e. coal, oil, etc).
[...] I look it at this way. Why is anyone buying miners given the current BTC price knowing full well there is no return likely on these units even if you have lower power costs? [...]
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
That's not entirely true. There are some countries where at this current price mining is still VERY profitable. Mainly, countries where the main power source is of the renewable kind and prices of energy are VERY low compared to other sources (i.e. coal, oil, etc).
Not for small miners.
Even with low electricity the shipping and cost of the units really doesn't make any sense.
If you have the numbers show them here I am willing to accept evidence to contrary. Where is there are miner today who can purchase a $369 Antminer S5 with all the accessories, shipping, taxes etc that can ROI. Love to see those numbers. The only real way you are going to make something is to go larger and get economies of scale in terms of miner unit price and bulk electricity. Even those mines are shutting down less efficient units and selling them off to make money.
Otherwise you are best to buy BTC straight and hold that for better returns or possibly as other have mentioned and what I do is mine an Altcoin in the hopes it eventually rises. Either way it is a risk. Buying small lots of new miners in this market place makes little sense given the risks.
You have to count the resale value of the units. Most can be sold at a high price on eBay. Go look. People paying by PayPal will pay a premium to buy a used miner.
Yes and that is what Bitmain was doing as well. Resale of units they had mining for a good long while as the price of BTC drops it makes this the ONLY way to recoup your investment. As the market matures there will be less and less people buying making this option more and more difficult.
So you are taking a calculated risk given the difficulty, price of BTC and the availability of miners in general both new and second hand. Suffice to say you'd be better off buying BTC and holding for all the work and worry involved in miners. Don't go down the cloud mining option please we know many are scams. The options are minimal. Collective projects may be the only option if you want to really see savings but then you are just ramping up the risks.
March 17, 2015, 11:22:05 PM
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but...
That's not entirely true. There are some countries where at this current price mining is still VERY profitable. Mainly, countries where the main power source is of the renewable kind and prices of energy are VERY low compared to other sources (i.e. coal, oil, etc).
[...] I look it at this way. Why is anyone buying miners given the current BTC price knowing full well there is no return likely on these units even if you have lower power costs? [...]
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
That's not entirely true. There are some countries where at this current price mining is still VERY profitable. Mainly, countries where the main power source is of the renewable kind and prices of energy are VERY low compared to other sources (i.e. coal, oil, etc).
Not for small miners.
Even with low electricity the shipping and cost of the units really doesn't make any sense.
If you have the numbers show them here I am willing to accept evidence to contrary. Where is there are miner today who can purchase a $369 Antminer S5 with all the accessories, shipping, taxes etc that can ROI. Love to see those numbers. The only real way you are going to make something is to go larger and get economies of scale in terms of miner unit price and bulk electricity. Even those mines are shutting down less efficient units and selling them off to make money.
Otherwise you are best to buy BTC straight and hold that for better returns or possibly as other have mentioned and what I do is mine an Altcoin in the hopes it eventually rises. Either way it is a risk. Buying small lots of new miners in this market place makes little sense given the risks.
You have to count the resale value of the units. Most can be sold at a high price on eBay. Go look. People paying by PayPal will pay a premium to buy a used miner.
March 17, 2015, 11:18:46 PM
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but...
That's not entirely true. There are some countries where at this current price mining is still VERY profitable. Mainly, countries where the main power source is of the renewable kind and prices of energy are VERY low compared to other sources (i.e. coal, oil, etc).
[...] I look it at this way. Why is anyone buying miners given the current BTC price knowing full well there is no return likely on these units even if you have lower power costs? [...]
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
That's not entirely true. There are some countries where at this current price mining is still VERY profitable. Mainly, countries where the main power source is of the renewable kind and prices of energy are VERY low compared to other sources (i.e. coal, oil, etc).
Not for small miners.
Even with low electricity the shipping and cost of the units including all the peripheral add-ons you need really doesn't make any sense. This has been the case since the price drop of BTC.
If you have the numbers show them here I am willing to accept evidence to contrary. Where are these miners today who can purchase a $369 Antminer S5 with all the accessories, shipping, taxes etc that can ROI. Love to see those numbers. The only real way you are going to make something is to go larger and get economies of scale in terms of miner unit price and bulk electricity. Even those mines are shutting down less efficient units and selling them off to make money.
Otherwise you are best to buy BTC straight and hold that for better returns or possibly as other have mentioned and what I do is mine an Altcoin in the hopes it eventually rises. Either way it is a risk. Buying small lots of new miners in this market place makes little sense given the risks.
March 17, 2015, 10:59:07 PM
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but...
That's not entirely true. There are some countries where at this current price mining is still VERY profitable. Mainly, countries where the main power source is of the renewable kind and prices of energy are VERY low compared to other sources (i.e. coal, oil, etc).
[...] I look it at this way. Why is anyone buying miners given the current BTC price knowing full well there is no return likely on these units even if you have lower power costs? [...]
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
That's not entirely true. There are some countries where at this current price mining is still VERY profitable. Mainly, countries where the main power source is of the renewable kind and prices of energy are VERY low compared to other sources (i.e. coal, oil, etc).
March 17, 2015, 10:54:28 PM
Caveat Emptor
I don't think BTC or Mining hardware is any less or more suspect than other businesses. Although there are certainly are plenty of examples of price gouging in BTC Hardware. Bitmain isn't going make more units a break even or small losses so it does make sense they raise the price and expect "pre-orders" given the long slide of price drops since the S1's was released.
I look it at this way. Why is anyone buying miners given the current BTC price knowing full well there is no return likely on these units even if you have lower power costs? It is like you want them to maintain prices so you can make a return on your investment. I see all the complaints as valid in this case with the rapid rise once there were no competitors providing viable alternatives. But the simple solution. Do no buy them.
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
I expect Bitmain to charge in accordance to their costs and the market. I know damned fine my chances of making anything from BTC are dismal, it's primarily an interesting hobby for me. All I'm looking for is equitable treatment on the part of vendors -- I make out the way I make out (my power cost is 14.5cts per KWH). I don't begrudge them their profits and if they make a calculation that concludes $419 is the correct price, I may wince, but I presume them to be correct. If it turns out they were wrong and they readjust downward, then I expect them to make good on their overcharge. This isn't barter, not a question of one-of, not a rare antique! This is a product, day-in/day-out. The pricing fault was there's, not mine! I don't think BTC or Mining hardware is any less or more suspect than other businesses. Although there are certainly are plenty of examples of price gouging in BTC Hardware. Bitmain isn't going make more units a break even or small losses so it does make sense they raise the price and expect "pre-orders" given the long slide of price drops since the S1's was released.
I look it at this way. Why is anyone buying miners given the current BTC price knowing full well there is no return likely on these units even if you have lower power costs? It is like you want them to maintain prices so you can make a return on your investment. I see all the complaints as valid in this case with the rapid rise once there were no competitors providing viable alternatives. But the simple solution. Do no buy them.
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
March 17, 2015, 10:32:41 PM
emoticons ↮ professional
Especially when you're being bent over a barrel with pricing shenanigans, and ineffective responses to support tickets.
I don't care about emoticons, but I do care about jacking the price around and then refusing to refund the difference resulting from my BTC order being the day before the ensuing price drop. If I accepted biting the bullet on paying the $419, then Bitmain has no business refusing to refund the difference at $369. What good are two coupons that require another dual S5 purchase given: Especially when you're being bent over a barrel with pricing shenanigans, and ineffective responses to support tickets.
1) My plans include no further S5 purchases (have four including the two just ordered).
2) I have no more BTC at this time (I'm a fixed income home miner, not a data center).
3) The coupons are only good for about half a month.
What kind of reputable business doesn't honor its own pricing? Since when does a limited time/limited target coupon equal refund? If the price difference were even held in account, it would be something, but these damn coupons are useless to me. Bend over is right!
Caveat Emptor
I don't think BTC or Mining hardware is any less or more suspect than other businesses. Although there are certainly are plenty of examples of price gouging in BTC Hardware. Bitmain isn't going make more units a break even or small losses so it does make sense they raise the price and expect "pre-orders" given the long slide of price drops since the S1's was released.
I look it at this way. Why is anyone buying miners given the current BTC price knowing full well there is no return likely on these units even if you have lower power costs? It is like you want them to maintain prices so you can make a return on your investment. I see all the complaints as valid in this case with the rapid rise once there were no competitors providing viable alternatives. But the simple solution. Do no buy them.
Further to this there is no way an individual buying a few miners is going to compete with the farms not unless there is a rethink about pooling resources and the very nature of a "home" unit. At this point there is no reasonable argument for buying small miners with limited power availability. It was a bad investment at 369$ or even lower.
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